1997 540 / 6 - Timing Chain / Guides Progress

[Franktea]

For those who might venture at this job, i decided to post pics as i progressed with hurtles. Pics below for phase 1 disassembly took me 2.5 hours.
Phase 2 disassembly will continue one we get some warm weather here in NY.
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[euroshark]

How many miles are on this engine? I've had a couple of Vanos engine that needed guides but it seems like they aren't a common issue on the non-Vanos engines.

[XAlt]

How many miles are on this engine? I've had a couple of Vanos engine that needed guides but it seems like they aren't a common issue on the non-Vanos engines.

He has 242k. The Non-VANOS cars are succumbing to dry rot and we're starting to see more guide failures, and then comes the M5's turn.

When the death rattle comes it's time to change, maybe you'll get another 100k, or drop tomorrow. Mayorchuck on the E38 forum found a NV car with ~60k needing guides.

[Franktea]

I have been referencing Bentley manual and videos on YouTube. Every video I have seen is in regards to motors with Vanos if anyone knows of video doing this job on a non Vanos motor would love to see it thank you.

[Franktea]

Phase 2 disassembly valve covers and oil pan removed 2 hours.
So far I cant identify anything broken but I'm no expert in timing chain guides.

[euroshark]

Did you find any debris in the bottom of the pan? This is the second of two Vanos M62s I did. Every last bit of plastic had shattered off of the "U" shaped guide. It made a horrible noise but still ran well enough for me to get it to the shop before anything catastrophic happened.

[augustballer]

I have been referencing Bentley manual and videos on YouTube. Every video I have seen is in regards to motors with Vanos if anyone knows of video doing this job on a non Vanos motor would love to see it thank you.

In for the reference material too. Just dropped the pan on my brothers non vanos and found plastic bits. I'm in the same boat as you. I can find tons of vanos specific videos and write-ups, but not so much for non vanos.

I did the guides on my 540 (vanos) 2 years ago, but I'd like to know the specifics for non vanos before we start tearing down as far as you have.

[Barvarian]

In for the reference material too. Just dropped the pan on my brothers non vanos and found plastic bits. I'm in the same boat as you. I can find tons of vanos specific videos and write-ups, but not so much for non vanos.

I did the guides on my 540 (vanos) 2 years ago, but I'd like to know the specifics for non vanos before we start tearing down as far as you have.

Its pretty much the same thing you just dont do the extra steps for Vanos. For example look up the G.A.S. (GermanAutoSolutions) Tools timing diy write up on their website, do everything just skip the vanos procedure. And use the Bently Manual as well it shows you the torque specs for the sprockets of the M62 engine and the order in which you put them on.


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[Franktea]

Thanks for the feedback and advice, going back under the hood tomorrow to get the front plate off and expose the chain and guides, also get engine to TDC and put the pin and blocks in.

[Franktea]

Progress came to a halt when i realized i did not have a 27mm in my tool arsenal for crank bolt. In the interim i looked over the oil pan and many bits were found, see photo

[StephenVA]

Yep they look like bits and pieces! Good luck and may everything go as planned.

[Kershaw]

Looks like you did this just in time. Did you notice any vibration in the engine before doing this or was this truly a "I'm just doing this as routine maintenance?"

[Franktea]

I didn't notice any vibration, when it became loud at first i thought it was exhaust manifold leak, then when i looked closer all the noise was coming from passenger valve cover front of engine . From reading posts over the years i figured it was time and honestly was thinking of parting out the car.

[XAlt]

Progress came to a halt when i realized i did not have a 27mm in my tool arsenal for crank bolt. In the interim i looked over the oil pan and many bits were found, see photo

waw

[qcdstick]

Tackling this on my '97 as well and have some questions, If you don't mind I'll hop in and maybe we can work this out. My car has 226,000 miles on her including a few thousand miles on track. No signs of any abnormal noise, but I've been meaning to do this for years because of all the horror stories I've seen about guide/chain failures. Presently I have the valve covers, upper timing covers, and lower oil pan removed. No derbies or signs of guide failure, but my gaskets were leaking oil something fierce so I figure I may as well do the chain / guides anyway.
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[qcdstick]

The big question I have that I haven't seen anyone address is this: Why can't you mark the sprockets and timing chain, similarly mark the new chain, and align the new chain to the marks on the sprockets? So long as you don't crack the sprockets loose from the cams, and you are 100% sure you have the same number of links between each sprocket as there was before, I'm not understanding where the problem would arise. I feel like I have to be missing something, or there would have been more chatter about it, but I've been thinking about it for weeks, and looking and the engine opened up, and I'm just not seeing where the problem would come into play. In this scenario, you wouldn't need the cam locks, heck you wouldn't even technically need to bother having the engine at TDC (although probably a good idea anyway just for having reference points to check). Obviously this means you can't change the small chains between the cams, because changing those will require removing the sprockets from the cams, which would require the full timing equipment. But, I don't remember seeing anyone talk about upper chain failures, and looking at mine, even with 226,000 miles there is hardly any wear, I had intended to skip the small chains anyway.

Can someone shed some light on why this is a bad plan? Looking for specifically why it's a bad idea, not just "because everyone does it this way".

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My other reason for considering this approach beyond it just being cheaper and easier is my JB Racing aluminum flywheel doesn't have the hole to lock the crank at TDC. Since the timing mark on the timing cover is so far from the mark on the pully, they are pretty much useless for anything beyond getting a general approximation of TDC. I think the intent was to get it close on those marks, and then use the inspection hole / flywheel pin to fine tune it and lock it in to TDC. I'm planning to tackle this by making an adjustable pointer that sits right near the mark on the pully, and using a piston stop tool to accurately locate TDC. From there, it is a matter of securing the crank in position. I have an idea in my head for something similar to the ~$80 crank holding tool, but with another adjustable leg that I can secure to one of the idler pulley mounting locations that would hold everything firmly in place. Basically it'd be two pieces of metal, a lot of holes for various adjustment points, and a few bolts to hold it all together. If I end up going this route, I'll be sure to write it up.

[philly98540]

I did my pre vanos without the timing tools many years ago here.
http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/131...houghts-wanted!!

I was super careful to mark the chains and sprokets. Stilling running strong.

The issue I see, is as the chain and guides wear, the right bank get later in timing. When you change parts out, the initial set up timing may not be perfect for the replacement parts. I think the margin for error is wide enough to accommodate for this, but it carries some risk. It worked for me though. Not sure many, if any, have done this on Vanos cars with success.

[qcdstick]

I did my pre vanos without the timing tools many years ago here.
http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/131...houghts-wanted!!

I was super careful to mark the chains and sprokets. Stilling running strong.

The issue I see, is as the chain and guides wear, the right bank get later in timing. When you change parts out, the initial set up timing may not be perfect for the replacement parts. I think the margin for error is wide enough to accommodate for this, but it carries some risk. It worked for me though. Not sure many, if any, have done this on Vanos cars with success.

Good to know it can be done. Assuming clockwise rotation as viewed from the front of the car, bank 1 (left / passenger side) would run slightly behind bank 2 as the chain stretches with time. Going back to a non-stretched chain *should* put the timing closer to factory timing than it was before the replacement. This assumes of course the new chain has the exact same spacing as the OEM chain did new.

Thanks for the link. Read through the thread, I'll sign up for roadfly when i get home so I can view the pictures too.

[Franktea]

I did buy the cam lock blocks, but i am also going to mark the chain on various spots before i remove it and match the new one lines up exactly the same. If you're off by one tooth wont be good.

I have done a timing belt on my truck without any tools other then a marker so its possible.

My progress has slowed as been to busy with life. I hope to put in sometime this weekend. Keep me posted on your progress and i'll do the same, Feel free to PM me with any specifics.

[qcdstick]

Got mine done a couple weeks ago. Did it without any special tools, but I left the upper small chains and tensioners and just replaced the primary chain and guides. I figure if I have to do them later, it should be possible from the top side, but as they are now they look good. There was just enough room to slip the new primary chain over the crank sprocket without having to loosen or remove any of the cam sprockets which is what made it possible to do without the cam locks. I just marked the cams and chain, counted links, triple checked everything and put it back together.

Putting the covers back on (upper timing and valve covers) was more difficult than anticipated, make sure you do several dry fits before applying any RTV. Ended up compressing the upper covers with a big C clamp and block of wood, got a more flush fit than using the valvecover itself even with shims. Similarly, getting the valvecover on with the gasket was a PITA because the half moons kept hitting the cams and taking the gasket out of the groove. Fit fine with no gasket, so i gouped it up and went to put it on, big messy mistake. Do dry fits with the gasket first!

Everything seems good to go, car runs great. Unfortunately, while all the original gaskets were hard as rocks and leaking and had been for years, as it turns out they weren't the cause of my sudden dramatic oil loss. Disappointed to find a big puddle still when I parked after a short test drive. The back of the heads are still clean, so everything I did seems to be holding fine, likely my 2 year old rear main seal went out in a big way. Ran it up on the lift last night and found this:

Guess it will be another big-ish project and a while longer before I get to drive her again. Oil loss from this leak is somewhere around 1 quart every 30-50 miles! :-(

[Mach540]

Sounds real good, otherwise.

[Franktea]

OK so finally all the motor is apart, question on parts to get, should i change all these or just whats broken?

Three main timing chain guides
Upper Guides on camshaft chains
All chains - Two timing chains and oil pump chain
OSV
All Gaskets.
Water Pump - has about 80k on it.

Car has 240k im not driving this another 240k

Thanks
Frank


Thanks,
Frank

[qcdstick]

If it were me...
3 Guides - yes
Upper guides on camshaft chains - depends how they look. If you do the cam chains I would do the guide/tensioners too. I opted to do neither in order to not have to re-time the engine as mine looked very good.
All Chains - I just did the big timing chain and left the oil and cam chains. No harm in doing them if you have all the tools and are in there though.
OSV - This one is so cheap and easy, no reason at all not to do it if you have the guides off.
All Gaskets - Yes. Mine were so brittle every one of them was junk.
Water Pump - Unless you have reason to suspect it is on its way out, I wouldn't. It's easy enough to do when and if it's actually needed. That said, at 80k, it could be nearing end of life.


I got the rear main replaced in my car, and no more leaks! No idea what was wrong with the one that was in there, it looked fine and was obviously replaced at the time of the clutch job a few years ago so it wasn't even that old. Worst part about the entire job was the exhaust studs, what a PITA. Most were already gone, of the two that were left one snapped. Ended up torching and punching both out to replace with standard nut/bolts. At least those when they rust up can be cut off and easily and cheaply replaced.

[f355spider]

I had all three timing chain tensioners replaced. Seal on the crank for the front lower cover of course. Though my Vanos was operating fine, I went ahead and had the rebuild done...figured why not?

[Franktea]

I decided to just do the three main guides and all gaskets. Everything else leaving as is.

I'm at the point i would like to get this running, sold and move on to something new.

What to replace the 540 sport with, thats the next process i need to go through.