Fast and Loud E36 build

[FoxBodyRacing]

Probibly just for time constraint purposes I assume. I'm sure he got some kind of a discount for the free publicity. After that show there are probibly a bunch of people wanting to do an LS BMW.

[unnatrl]

Probibly just for time constraint purposes I assume. I'm sure he got some kind of a discount for the free publicity. After that show there are probibly a bunch of people wanting to do an LS BMW.

You have a point. I guess we will see. Its awesome to see how far these swaps have come. When I started the M3 swap in 2008 there were some haters! It was funny as hell to pop the hood at the Euro meets and hear the reactions. Most people were in disbelief. Every once in a while someone would enjoy it. Times have changed. Thank god!

[Smoker8891]

It was entertaining. I can't figure out why Aaron bought Vorschlag stuff. While it's nice quality, the price (assuming he paid what anyone of us would) nearly eats up half of his budget. Farm truck bought a car ready to go. Seems like one was a smarter decision. Just my .02

like the guys on the first page said he had been talking about doing a bmw ls car for a wile, I think he did it like this as an excuse to get a project going that he wanted to do for a while. building any car for an event is with a short deadline is hard enough let a lone doing it while making a car jump from being built to hold one manufacturers engine to another. I know mustang guys that swapped there 90s 3.8 mustangs to new coyotes that 6months later still are not to full potential. at the end of the day it looked like everyone had fun building there cars and I had fun watching.

[Fair]

It was entertaining. I can't figure out why Aaron bought Vorschlag stuff. While it's nice quality, the price (assuming he paid what anyone of us would) nearly eats up half of his budget.

Why did Aaron buy nearly everything from the Vorshlag E36 LS swap kit? Surely he could have fabricated any and all of these parts himself, or even bought the cheap Chinese swap kit parts popular with some on this forum.

Here are three probable reasons...

1. He had 3.5 weeks to build this car, engine swap + suspension + wheels/tires + cage + flares. He needed everything we make to save TIME.



Sure, a good fabricator could likely spend 40 hours making a seat of similar headers, another 4-6 hours making proper motor mounts, 5-7 hours making the crossmember, and having all of these items work together with proper clearance and driveline angles takes even more hours. Plus the fabrication parts, materials, and tools. Not to mention years of experience and skill.



TIME = MONEY. As a professional fabricator Aaron knows that his time is worth "X" dollars per hour as billable time on jobs: $100, $150, $200... he bills out at some dollar value. Everyone reading this that has a job has a dollar value per hour, too - even if they don't think about it. Aaron knew it would take 75+ hours to fabricate these basic engine swap parts, parts that he could buy from us for about $4000 and that he knows works, when that represents $7500-10,000+ in billable time - the numbers just don't add up.



Our swap kit is made designs proven over a dozen years, using the right materials, with precise CNC laser cut pieces that we TIG weld together in production fixtures. We have sold hundreds of kits, and there's very little risk in using our parts.

But some people are so cheap that they don't value their time at all, and they don't value quality either. They think they can make swap parts for their build as good or better for "less money", but even the best fabricator making this stuff by hand is going to spend A LOT MORE time than we do (or charge) for the parts we sell. But when you value your time at "$0 per hour" things like this do seem expensive, sure. That's the kind of thinking what gets you tied up into a multi-year V8 swap, with tons of compromises and issues, too.



And don't try to fool me - I've seen the home built swap stuff in this forum. Most of it is bad. Some of it literally causes me pain.



Even the best fabricator out there values their time, and when we can do something here at Vorshlag with a "store bought" part - we buy it. This car above was a classic case of this last week: 3rd gen Camaro with an LS + T56 swap. Hooker makes a $300 transmission crossmember that is a bolt-in.



Sure, we could have made something one-off" in 5-6 hours, but at $105/hour + parts this would have cost the customer double. That's just dumb - we gladly paid $300 for the laser cut, production fixture welded part that is proven.

2. Our headers are better than anything on the marker. Hand fabricated headers almost never flow as well as CNC bent stainless long tubes. Making these from scratch takes several DAYS of work, and he understands that this is one of the biggest time savers around.



He also appreciates the increase in horsepower these have over A) block hugger shorties or B) the cheaper, janky looking swap headers sold for this chassis.

3. He appreciates quality. Aaron wanted to KEEP this car long term, and buying cheap parts or a quick hack-job fabricated bits were going to be the wrong choice, long term.



Aaron had seen our V8 swaps on many occasions and he personally has lusted for one of these for his own for a long time. While it might have "saved him money" to cheap out and either make or buy cheaper stuff, he was in it for the long haul.

Farm truck bought a car ready to go. Seems like one was a smarter decision. Just my .02

I agree with you somewhat - for a car to win this shootout with its unknown competitions, and having a chance of losing the car, buying some beat up old race car and slapping some tires on it might have been a safer, less stressful decision.



Again, Aaron has wanted an LS swapped BMW for himself for a long time, and having Discovery channel give him $15,000 to help build it.... that helped make this dream come true, sooner rather than later. Aaron just put his Pikes Peak race car on eBay this week, so he is "Racecar-less" and this thing - with a little more time and tuning - can easily fill the void. And be a LOT faster, too.

[Fender13Bender]

Yea I'm wondering if he is keeping the E36. I didn't think he'd wanna sell the Falcon but he is.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[unnatrl]

Appreciate the responses. I don't blame him at all for wanting to build the car. It seemed like a huge undertaking given the time and $ constraints.

We could debate endlessly whether or not the different kits on the market are better than each other. There are plenty of options out there. Some are expensive, some not. Others have much better NVH qualities while others fit better. Some are made in China. Each has its market. It's up to the consumer to decide what parts are going to work for them. I'm not interested in debating who's parts are better, who spent more on research, etc. We all have our own opinions on the subject.

Regardless, we all contribute to the hobby. It's come a long way in the last 10 years. Can't wait to see the innovative ideas people come up with next. Carry on gents!

[FoxBodyRacing]

Appreciate the responses. I don't blame him at all for wanting to build the car. It seemed like a huge undertaking given the time and $ constraints.

We could debate endlessly whether or not the different kits on the market. There are plenty of options out there. Some are expensive, some not. Others have much better NVH qualities while others fit better. Some are made in China. Each has its market. It's up to the consumer to decide what parts are going to work for them. I'm not interested in debating who's parts are better, who spent more on research, etc. We all have our own opinions on the subject.

Regardless, we all contribute to the hobby. It's come a long way in the last 10 years. Can't wait to see the innovative ideas people come up with next. Carry on gents!

nailed it.

To the above comment
"And don't try to fool me - I've seen the home built swap stuff in this forum. Most of it is bad. Some of it literally causes me pain. "

I'm not sure who that was directed at but there are some extremely talented/creative hobbyist's on this forum. everybody starts somewhere, different budgets and experience will obviously affect outcome. I by no means am the best fabricator ever but I prefer to do things on my own. and with every weld is a little better than the last. If I was not in the military and I could do this full time I have no doubt I would be able to build a car with the best of them and in 7 years when I finish my 20 years I fully intend to.

[99E36LS1]

In response to "Fairs" post I'd like to point out that just because I chose to build my engine mounts, trans mounts or headers my time isn't worthless.

I work at a fairly high stress job. My time spent in the shop allows me to completely forget about work and focus on the fabrication at hand. Happy to compare my parts to anyone.

On my headers I used all mandrel pieces and on the passenger side I have a better radius out of the exhaust port than Fair's design. I have a more gradual bend down ward angle which is important in any header design. I didn't use a band clamp at the collector. I've had great luck with the standard three bolt flange but made out of 3/8" material so they stay straight when tighten down with a good quality copper gasket. Why would anyone spend $100 for band clamps?

There is no question building headers is time consuming but it's not rocket science. I've had the good luck to have locally a small but very good header designer school me on basic header design.

Using the JTR style engine and trans mount design basically eliminates drive line vibrations in my swap. Doesn't seen to the case with any of the poly mount kits.

Would I sell what I've built. No. I leave that to the commercially available designs.

Keep in mind I do this because I like this. The E36/LS swap is a great hot rod. Some people get it and some people don't have a clue.

Aaron's build seemed strange because it was way too hurried for a good build no matter what kit was used. Were either street legal? Maybe that wasn't part of the equation.

[squashman702]

And don't try to fool me - I've seen the home built swap stuff in this forum. Most of it is bad. Some of it literally causes me pain.

Didn't realize you were born an expert fabricator. Shame on us idiots for giving it a go ourselves.

[99E36LS1]

Well said Squashman702

I retract my previous statement about my fab skills. There are more than a few that I view on this web site with much respect and exceed my fab skills. I don't have a tig so I make do with a Miller 211.

I work in the of world custom machinery fabrication. One thing we have learned is that yes upfront costs are not inexpensive but they than can and need to be amortized to make your products the ones to buy.

Listen to customer feedback. If you are selling to the race track guys with little concern for day to day drive ability just say that. If you can offer a more street able setup go for it.


Having said the above Aarons car was less than I was expecting. I hope he can rework it and improve his E36 hot rod.

[bimerok]

Some people just don't understand that not everything has a price. For instance for some including myself, this hobby is priceless and as mentionded above is used to relieve stress from daily job and is fun. Do I value my time - absolutely! Do I need to bill myself for hours spend doing my hobby and enjoyment? Sounds ridiculous to me. This mentality only maks sense if you buld to sell, otherwise it sounds like a cheap, beat up sales cliche.

My other hobby is action shooting and following the same logic of putting a price tag on your time spent on hobby, I would be better off just buying someone else's target with all A shots as it would be a lot cheaper than participating myself, because my time spent shooting at $x/hour would be more expensive + ammo + cleaning time, etc...

[modernbeat]

Most of our swap customers do not have a hobby of building cars. To those that do, more power to you! I salute you. That was my hobby too, building cars from the frame up for years. Sometimes even building the frame.

For those that do not have a hobby of fabrication, for them it makes sense to buy the right solution. They aren't looking for the "fun" of cutting and welding. Or measuring thread pitches and looking at whether they line they are working on has a bubble or reverse flare. Those guys want a fun car that is finished.

[unnatrl]

These comments were made above.

"Our swap kit is made designs proven over a dozen years, using the right materials, with precise CNC laser cut pieces that we TIG weld together in production fixtures. We have sold hundreds of kits, and there's very little risk in using our parts."

I generally agree that your parts are quality. CNC cut and fixture welded parts typically turn out that way. Many of us have been involved in threads that discuss the quality vs price debate. The LS swap market has exploded. I can change the sheet metal (I.E. Vehicle) that surrounds my engine and do the swap for 1/2 the price. Quality of parts is a negligible variable. Many companies find it necessary to implement the "BMW tax" on parts like this. There are plenty of others that are stepping away from that idea. My goal isn't to start that argument again, merely offer consumer feedback.

"And don't try to fool me - I've seen the home built swap stuff in this forum. Most of it is bad. Some of it literally causes me pain. "

Many purists have the same reaction when they see a Chevy engine under the hood of a BMW, regardless of who built the parts. The quality (good or bad) makes zero difference at that point. Let's keep the hobby in perspective.

[Fair]

Didn't mean to bash every home built swap on this forum guys, sorry if that came out wrong. Just trying to show that even some professional fabricators still buy our swap kit parts rather than make their own.

We get a lot of questions as to "why we charge money for parts" and its frustrating. We are not a charity, and I do have to pay my employees a decent wage. Not everyone understands that, and that's OK.

I wasn't trying to throw shade at anyone here. But you know you have seen some swaps that are pretty janky. Angle iron, stick welders, giant gaps filled with weld, custom header abominations. They DO exist... NOT ALL, but some...

And some folks would rather do all car work themselves - more power to ya!

[Schitzo]

Our headers are better than anything on the marker [sic].
Hand fabricated headers almost never flow as well as CNC bent stainless long tubes.
And don't try to fool me - I've seen the home built swap stuff in this forum. Most of it is bad. Some of it literally causes me pain.
But you know you have seen some swaps that are pretty janky. Angle iron, stick welders, giant gaps filled with weld, custom header abominations.

It is difficult to take you seriously with statements such as the ones above...which are similar to statements you have made in the past. Just because something was laser cut, CNC bent, and TIG welded does not make it superior to one that has been hand cut from angle iron and stick welded. Likewise, pretty welds are not necessarily sound welds just as ugly welds are not necessarily poor welds.
Considering some of the feedback of your kit on this forum, you should consider occasionally alternating between the high horse and a pony.

[unnatrl]

It is difficult to take you seriously with statements such as the ones above...which are similar to statements you have made in the past. Just because something was laser cut, CNC bent, and TIG welded does not make it superior to one that has been hand cut from angle iron and stick welded. Likewise, pretty welds are not necessarily sound welds just as ugly welds are not necessarily poor welds.
Considering some of the feedback of your kit on this forum, you should consider occasionally alternating between the high horse and a pony.

Well said! The same attitude has been displayed in previous threads. I refrained from pointing it out as it wasn't worth the headache.

[slofut]

Aaron should have done what I did to my E46 and put a straight axle 8.8 in it.

I just saved this pic to my desktop. Funny how that just makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside!