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Thread: Removing virtually all coolant hoses except 2.. Is this OK?

  1. #26
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Central Wisconsin
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    '94 325i, '93 325is
    The factory gauge is all but useless. I put in a short sweep Autometer gauge which is fairly cheap and actually shows true temperature. You could use the m12x1.5 to 1/8 NPT adapter in the hole where the throttle body coolant fitting was. Because the adapter is so small the sender that comes with autometer gauges won't work but the one I linked seems like it fits from the reviews. That adapter will work with any of their short sweep gauges.


    Adapter. https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-22.../dp/B000CIF3UM

    Sender, https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-22.../dp/B00062YVKC
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Tenerife, Spain
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    My Cars
    1997 BMW E36 323i
    Thanks for the tips..

    I still have a few of these lying around (M50 Bosch temperature sensor, M12x1.5)
    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...81#13621709966

    Which basically is this M12x1.5 Bosch sensor:
    http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/medi...2569739pdf.pdf

    I think I also have the female connector lying around, so I can do a bit of soldering, and then connect it to an LCD-equiped Arduino to show the digital temp and also add a beeper once the temperature passes 105 degrees C. As you guessed, I also have the Arduino lying around, and really like experimenting with it :-) .

    Update: Somebody already did the ground work.. Not so difficult to get it to work: http://forum.freetronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=5605 .
    Needed: Arduino + LCD shield (clicks on top of the Arduino and instantly gives you an LCD display) + 10k resistor + some wires + a buzzer.
    And then a bit of coding and it should work.. And finally (a bit harder) finding a neat place to mount the Arduino+LCD display.

    Or perhaps I could also make the Arduino play a sound sample: "Stop the car immediately, engine is running hot", making it completely fool proof if someone else would be driving the car :-) .
    That's also possible with the Arduino: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/SimpleAudioPlayer .
    Best to also add a loud buzzer, so you can hear it even with the windows down or the radio playing.
    So something like:
    [LOUD BEEP from buzzer] [Audio played through speaker: "Stop the car immediately, engine is running hot"] [LOUD BEEP from buzzer]
    And then let it repeat until ignition is off or temperature drops below treshold..
    And some high intensity red leds so there is also a visual warning. And I would let the LCD display show: "STOP ENGINE - 105 deg C" (with 105 being the actual temperature)..
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-07-2018 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #28
    Join Date
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    1997 BMW E36 323i
    Today, I installed the silicone end cap, the M12x1.5 Bosch sensor and I removed all throttle body coolant hoses.
    I also installed a new CCV, new CCV hoses and a 3mm silicone vacuum hose in between the manifold and the fuel pressure regulator.

    Once I removed the throttle body (return) coolant hose from the pipe below, water poured out, and by just installing the silicone end cap, the water flow stopped immediately, even without fastening a hose clamp (which of course I installed later on).

    I decided to wait with the coolant hose that runs from the firewall side of the head to the heater valve.. It's a bit difficult to reach. I think I would need to remove the manifold, or the wirings harness and brackets that run on top of the firewall.

    I'm still waiting for the OLED display, that should fit inside the button openings left below the steering wheel (where also the front light tilt/angle dial is located; disadvantage: a bit out of sight while driving) or the same panels in between the sunglass holder and the stick. I think I'll play with the Arduino some day soon, and just use a (too big) LCD screen, to be able to monitor the temperatures inside the cabin. And then later on, replace it with the OLED display and fit it nicely in one the before mentioned panels. Perhaps 3D print a perfect fit panel so it can be installed plug&play like a factory part. Will make some photos and/or videos once this is done.

    One of these panels:
    small_DSC_0226.jpgsmall_DSC_0228.jpg

    I'll be bleeding the little air out that got in the system while installing the upgrade/delete mod, and then it's nice to have an exact temperature display (a lot better than anxiously watching the needle of the buffered temp gauge, until it moves right from dead center).

    The silicone hoses and end caps seem like good quality.. Time will tell.

    P.S. Really like the spaciousness when you do the fan delete mod (also removing the fan shroud!) and the throttle body coolant hoses delete mod (makes it a lot easier to get to the power steering fluid, reach under the manifold, and just gives a better view at things).
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-20-2018 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Addes photos of intended location of Arduino based digital OLED temp gauge

  4. #29
    Join Date
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    1997 BMW E36 323i
    Here are some photos showing the added spaciousness of both the fan delete mod and the throttle body coolant hose delete mod.. I didn't install the alternator air duct yet. Also some photos of my 1997/02 323i.

    My 323i with dual pipe 328i exhaust (original 323i exhaust is identical to 320i, and is single pipe after the catalytic convertor):
    small_DSC_0222.jpg small_DSC_0224.jpg

    More space below the intake manifold, and if you look carefully, you can spot the new Bosch M12x1.5 temperature sensor installed instead of the coolant hose connector:
    small_DSC_0235.jpg

    More space in front of the engine, in between engine and radiator, due to fan delete mod (including fan shroud delete):
    small_DSC_0234.jpg

    More space above the steering fluid reservoir (which definitely needs a new lid ;-) ) due to throttle body coolant hose delete mod (note the blue silicone end cap):
    small_DSC_0233.jpg
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-20-2018 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    Tenerife, Spain
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    1997 BMW E36 323i
    Finally received the new radiator, the new 80/88 degrees C fan switch and some other parts.. Will be installing it in the next few days..
    Today, I also removed the AC belt because the compressor is whining a little all the time (with AC clutch not engaged).. It did this for quite some time (months already), but never thought of it being the AC compressor (bearings?). Very easy job with the mechanical fan and fan shroud removed.

    I had already removed the AC relay, because I noticed that running the aux fan constantly at low speed, by triggering the low speed fan relay at the center pin (connected a ground cable to that pin), caused the AC compressor clutch to engage, which, I found out, made the car a lot slower.. I noticed when I turned on the blower in the cabin and the air was very cold (with AC button off).. Now it's a lot faster again and revs very nicely again. It feels very light-footed, I like it.

    Didn't imagine that the DME and AC controlling the low speed fan through sending ground to the center ground pin of the relay, would also work in the other direction (applying ground manually to this pin to trigger the low speed fan, would also trigger the AC; odd)..
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-28-2018 at 09:19 PM.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    Tenerife, Spain
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    My Cars
    1997 BMW E36 323i
    Installed the new radiator, the new hoses and the new fan switch..
    Interestingly I discovered that old radiator had a small leak in the plastic expansion tank (which is integrated with the radiator in Europe).. So, the new radiator came just in time :-) . Seems good quality.
    Refilling and bleeding went very well.. It bled itself.. I first filled up the radiator through the expansion tank. When the water level wouldn't drop further after a few refills, I filled the upper driver side hose with water, and refilled a couple of times until the level remained constant. Then I connected the hose to the radiator. After that I started the engine, refilled a little more in the expansion tank.. Once I saw that the circulation was working, I went for a drive.. Temperature remained perfect. The water level dropped a little, so I added a little water.. And that's it. Seems like it bled itself.. Longer drive seems to confirm it's okay. Easy does it :-) .

    If the coolant level remains constant, I think I'll leave the cabin heater as it is for now.. But I know the hoses are 21 years old (1997 stamped on them), so it would be better to delete those hoses at some point.. It's a bit difficult to reach the hoses with the intake manifold still there.. We'll see.. For now, it's been a nice upgrade. Will be installing the Arduino + OLED display soon, so I'll have a digital temperature readout..

    Was impressed by the quality of the 21 year old hoses by the way.. No cracks.. And also the BMW hose clamps still worked perfectly (not 100% certain if those are also from 1997).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1997 E36 BMW 323i (European) 265k km, with following small mods:
    • Chip tuned DME, supposedly giving 190HP and 260Nm (feels like it); 328i dual pipe exhaust
    • Fan delete mod (stock 92C thermostat, normal coolant, 80/88C temp. switch, electric mod triggering high-speed fan at 80 deg. C)
    • Throttle body coolant hose delete mod
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-31-2018 at 11:09 PM.

  7. #32
    Join Date
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    Location
    Central Wisconsin
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    '94 325i, '93 325is
    The hose clamps are usually still great no matter how old. I buy and use the BMW style ones for all of my vehicles because they are way better than "normal" hose clamps.

    People make the bleeding on the cooling system way too difficult. You are correct it is designed to self bleed as long as you get most of the air out. It's not a big deal like some make it out to be.
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    New Zealand
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    My Cars
    1996 E36 M3 Evo
    Wow, that's a lot of research and investigation.

    Now, I understand you're doing this as bit of a project but, had you not brought everything already I would have suggested you either swapped over to a "warm climate" E36 factory setup (I suspect all southern European dealers sell "warm climate" cars as factory standard) or, if you wanted the absolute best setup then retrofit an M3 Euro cooling system. I think, with everything you've purchased, you probably could have one of those setups for a similar price.

    Warm Climate:

    diag_pi.png

    S50B32 (M3 Euro Evo):

    diag_l3.png

    As you can see the M3 setup is already very simple and you can still block off the heater core hoses. The M3 system is also self-bleeding which is a godsend.

    I note you're also looking at head temps - in this case the coolant temp is useless (it fluctuates too much) and you should be measuring oil temps instead. A coolant temp warning switch will give way too many false positives unless it's set too high to be of any use. You can fit a ready made distribution block such as this one to the oil filter housing to send to an oil temp gauge. Many places manufacture these for the e36.

    Finally, having the aux fan on slow all the time is unnecessary and it will actually slow cooling. You have far more effective cooling whilst driving without that fan on, especially if you've removed your clutch fan and shroud. It simply can't push as much air as you'll get driving along and interferes with the standard airflow. And having the high volume mode come as soon after your thermostat pops (because you have a lower temp switch) is both unnecessary and will shorten the life of the fan.

    What you want is stable oil temps when you're driving and ideally a proper gauge for that. Even on warm days the aux fan shouldn't come on at all when you're driving. When you stop the aux fan could come on, especially if it's hot outside but low speed will normally be enough to maintain temps until you're moving again. The high speed mode should almost never come on unless there's a problem with the system or ambient temps are much above about 40*C and you're in stop/start traffic. If the aux fan comes on high frequently (when setup as per the factory) then your radiator is too small for the climate (see warm climate above - much bigger radiator).

    If you're only using the aux fan make sure you carry spare fuses for it and possibly even a relay. Lose either of those and you've lost all supplementary cooling.

    Hope that provides some more interesting stuff for you to investigate!

    Edit: FWIW I have removed my clutch fan and shroud, have a high volume radiator, use a standard 88*C thermostat and a 80/88*C temp switch, live in a sub-tropical climate (max 28*C ambient) and my high speed fan never comes on. Oil temps sit at 98*C and never move.
    Last edited by M3AN; 06-04-2018 at 03:24 AM.
    '96 M3, S50B32, 6MT
    + good stuff

  9. #34
    Join Date
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    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
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    My Cars
    '94 325i, '93 325is
    FWIW I have an Autometer short sweep gauge and I do not see the temperature fluctuate.
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  10. #35
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    New Zealand
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    1996 E36 M3 Evo
    Quote Originally Posted by jc43089 View Post
    FWIW I have an Autometer short sweep gauge and I do not see the temperature fluctuate.
    Coolant temp? Where are you measuring it?
    '96 M3, S50B32, 6MT
    + good stuff

  11. #36
    Join Date
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    '94 325i, '93 325is
    Quote Originally Posted by M3AN View Post
    Coolant temp? Where are you measuring it?
    Cylinder head port. Mine is OBD1 so I removed the stock gauge sending unit and put the autometer sender there. It sits right about 200F, if stopped in traffic it gets to around 205-210 at the most.
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  12. #37
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    New Zealand
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    1996 E36 M3 Evo
    Well, you would normally measure coolant temp to monitor the health of the cooling system and oil temp to monitor the heat of the engine. If you're measuring the former to monitor the later you're doing it wrong I'm afraid. And if you are measuring oil temps as you should be then measuring coolant temp in the engine is redundant. And if you don't measure outlet coolant temp from the radiator you can't tell how effective your cooling system is.
    '96 M3, S50B32, 6MT
    + good stuff

  13. #38
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    I will be installing a second sender in the lower radiator hose soon because I am a nerd like that. That is the way to see a problem coming before it happens with the cooling system. I have oil pressure and likely soon oil temperature. So yes I get a bit carried away with sensing and monitoring. I am an instrumentation tech for work so I guess it fits.
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  14. #39
    Join Date
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    1997 BMW E36 323i
    M3AN, thanks for all the feedback and info..

    With regards to the costs, it's quite cheap..
    I had to replace the 3 main hoses (radiator->thermostat->radiator and head->expansion tank) and the radiator anyway.. So we don't have to count those costs. The hoses were from 1997.. I think they kept leaking slightly because the rubber had turned too hard for it to seal properly, no matter how hard I fastened the hose clamps.

    The silicone end cap was a bit difficult to get, especially because I live on an Island that is part of the EU, but not with regards to the VAT, so a lot of companies are not able to send goods to me from mainland Europe..
    But the end cap in itself isn't expensive at all, and I'm happy with the result.
    I already had a BMW/Bosch M12x1.5 coolant temp sensor, that I used to plug the head where normally the coolant hoses for the throttle body would go. So, also there, no costs.

    I also already have the two silicone end caps for when I want to do the heater hoses delete in the future.

    So, I think the M3 S50B32 (which has 6 throttle "bodies" inline) setup would cost me a lot more, especially because I would need to buy another radiator (mine has the expansion tank integrated in the radiator) and another expansion tank, and the special hoses.

    Prices paid:
    2x 10mm silicone end caps = 3.90 GBP (I only needed one, because I used the temp sensor in the head)
    2x 20mm silicone end caps = 5.10 GBP (1 for heater output pipe on back of head, and one on pipe for heater return)
    1x Shipping = 12.00 GBP
    -----
    Total = 21.00 GBP = +/- $ 28 USD

    So, that's the total price if you want to use silicone end caps.. In the US there also some other sellers, but prices will be comparable. You can go a lot cheaper by just reusing an old hose and putting in a bolt, and securing it a bit with tape and stuff, but that's less reliable, I'd say.

    As far as I know, in Europe no warm climate versions were sold.. For example, in Spain, during winter if you drive to Madrid, you'll get stuck in the snow, and there also mountains with low temperatures year round..
    Is the diagram you uploaded of the warm climate version correct, because I think that's the stock setup that I had (except for the expansion tank integrated in the radiator, Europe/US difference)?

    Having the aux fan on continuously on low speed, was just a temporary measure that allowed me to keep the fan-delete mod in place and, at the same time have peace of mind, until my new fan temp switch would arrive. It worked perfectly fine, but indeed did waste some energy and with the coolant at low temps the radiator efficiency drops, but that shouldn't be a problem (the same happens when driving on the highway, coolant temps in the radiator will drop significantly).. With my current setup (low temp switch, high speed fan triggered at 80 deg, 92 deg thermostat) it all works perfectly fine.. The fan virtually never turns on.. Only when I'm in stop&go traffic are driving very slowly (up to say 30 km/h) through a city it can turn on after, say 3 or 5 minutes.. On lots of drives it doesn't even turn on at all.

    I'm not too worried about the higher load on the alternator/battery.. The high speed aux fan isn't _that_ strong.. I think it's a little more than 20 Amps (probably 23 or 25A). I always carry spare fuses.. And the yellow low-speed fan relay is identical to the yellow A/C clutch relay, sitting right next to it. So I can always sacrifice the A/C to get the fan to work again, and based on my tests a continuously running low speed fan does the trick in 90% of the conditions. Should be enough to get you home, at least.
    I found an interesting page of someone comparing several Volvo and American brand fans for cooling his Volvo 240 Turbo: http://www.240turbo.com/ElectricCoolingFans.html . The ones he likes best are the quite high amp ones, used on American cars, on which the low speed mode probably uses more amps than our stock aux fan in high speed mode.. So, I'm not too worried about the amps being too high for the system. (note: the Volvo turbo engine needs more cooling, being a turbo engine, so I think we can get away with lower amp fans in our N/A E36's)..

    I think the extra temp sensor, right next to the DME and temp gauge sensor in the head, when finally connected to the Arduino and OLED display will help monitor the state of the cooling system. I'll be able to see problems coming earlier than when only watching the BMW temp gauge. The main goal is to protect the head from overheating. I know it's not perfect, oil temp would be nice, but I think if you're not racing the car it's sufficient in most cases.. Perhaps the alarm will be useless if the temps indeed fluctuate too much, too high.. But still, knowing the exact temperature does give me some ease of mind, not needing to guess when only watching the buffered temp gauge in the instrument panel. I'll first install just the digital monitor, and then, when I've watched the figures enough, I'll know if an alarm would make sense or not.. I think it should make sense, as, though the BMW temp gauge is very buffered, you know something is wrong if the gauge moves a little more to the right than the normal 'hair' to the right (especially if this happens while there are no high load/high temp conditions). So if I would set the alarm at the temperature corresponding to somewhere halfway between dead center and the first white line right from dead center, probably somewhere between 101 and 107 degrees C, it should work okay, I'd guess. Just so I'd have enough time to park the car in a safe spot and kill the engine.
    Last edited by ed323i; 06-06-2018 at 08:26 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

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