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Thread: PCV valve question

  1. #1
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    PCV valve question

    My car started to blow a cloud of blue smoke at the start time- every so often, maybe once every 40-50 starts or so. Reading up on the issue leads to a possible fault with the oil separator. Hard to get to part so I am open to other ideas? Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Oh boy, have you got some reading to do. Find my CCV thread in this forum and read it - yes, all of it. In short, you need to replace the whole CCV system, clear the dipstick guide tube, smoke test to ensure that the block is well-sealed, and then (and only then) do the modification described in that thread. This should resolve the issue.





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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
    Oh boy, have you got some reading to do. Find my CCV thread in this forum and read it - yes, all of it. In short, you need to replace the whole CCV system, clear the dipstick guide tube, smoke test to ensure that the block is well-sealed, and then (and only then) do the modification described in that thread. This should resolve the issue.
    listen to this advice - hard fought experience therein!
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  4. #4
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    OK, so is the valve broke or only broke sometimes?

  5. #5
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    Is it original? If yes, then not only is it broken, but the hoses are brittle and probably cracked. And the drain in the guide tube is obstructed, and the O-ring might be hard too. And the O-rings on the distribution piece on top of the manifold are probably hard too, and the piece itself might be clogged. And you probably have at least one crankcase vacuum leak.





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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiesiek View Post
    My car started to blow a cloud of blue smoke at the start time- every so often, maybe once every 40-50 starts or so. Reading up on the issue leads to a possible fault with the oil separator. Hard to get to part so I am open to other ideas? Thanks.
    I am new here and drive a 528i E39 ( 2000 176.000 kM )
    @JAVAMON added reply #230 in thread "Oil consumption after CCV replacement" as an advice he got, having oil consumption problems. To avoid very strong vacuum under circumstances, he was supposed to mount a hose between somewhere at the crankcase and the boot between the AMM and the TB. In this hose had to be mounted a valve to restrict crankcase pressure. That seems to be the last 10% of a definitive solution of the problem, to equalize some differential in pressure.
    In my car I cut off the oilseparation part from the CCV-valve. ( separated 1cc of oil after 1000kM )
    Crankcase vacuum at idle is 16cm/water and no vacuum decelerating from 4000 rpm.
    A hose from intake manifold to hose between VC and CCV-valve should be there for some more vacuum.
    edit:
    cruising at 160 kmh crankcase-pressure is about 6 cm/water.
    Last edited by incoplan; 03-05-2017 at 12:10 PM. Reason: additional info

  7. #7
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    incoplan, welcome to the forum.

    Now, I'm going to have to STRONGLY disagree with everything you just wrote.

    The thread which you just quoted is ~340 posts long -- and you picked a tiny part out of a single post, which is pretty much in direct contradiction of the rest of the EXTREMELY well-researched thread. And, you quoted this post entirely incorrectly anyway. Besides, Javamon was making a racing car.

    For anyone who has an oil consumption issue with the M52/M54 generation of cars, I HIGHLY recommend reading the entire thread:
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...V-replacement/

    Step 1 is a smoke test of the intake/ccv system -- always!


    Wiesiek, I have to recommend that you replace the Crankcase vent valve and the 4 associated hoses/pipes. The job takes a couple of hours, maybe a hundred bucks in parts. You have a faulty CCV, not a problem of excessive oil consumption.
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 03-05-2017 at 12:18 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  8. #8
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    @bmwdirtracer,
    Thank you for your reply.
    However, 90% of I wrote are facts about my own car etc and they are real true.
    If I am wrong somewhere in the other 10% please tell me why.
    I picked the point where the question did touche the mentioned discussion about CCV and leaking oil.
    BTW, I read the whole thread of the 340 posts and I think all of you did an exellent job with a very nice result !
    All the parts of the engine and hoses ( my car ) where could be a leak were tested. Result: no leaks, no engine-OBD faults.
    OEM CCV is totally removed. Engine-temp was about 100*C when tested, air-temp 12*C.
    Engine brings 186PK on the brake, average compression is about 168psi ( min-max is 165 - 172 )

  9. #9
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    I'm not really clear on what you're suggesting. First of all, are you trying to solve an oil consumption problem or something else? Second, the aim of the modification is to equalize vacuum in the crankcase with vacuum in the cylinders in order to minimize the flow of oil into the cylinders under high vacuum conditions while maintaining (and in fact improving) crankcase ventilation. What you seem to be advocating, at least based on the numbers you are seeing on your car, goes against the basic intent of the mod. I'm also rather confused as to how you're getting 16cmH2O at idle and +-0cmH20 decelerating from 4k RPM. Finally, you certainly don't want a pressurized crankcase under any operating condition.

    So I'm rather confused. For street use, I can't see why you would need to remove or bypass the oil separator, or indeed why you would need to go beyond the basic mod I describe in the other thread. Please explain your intent, methodology, and results in further detail so we can understand what you're doing and why.





    Life's tough. It's tougher when you're stupid.
    -John Wayne

  10. #10
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    I bought the car in november 2016
    The car reacted slowly to the accelleration-pedal.
    The new installed CCV did catch about 1cc of oil/1000KM, by far less of
    what could be expected.
    I thought using oil would be for at least 50% the result of blowby gases.
    But reading I became aware, that oil in blowby gases would be max about 20%
    So catching oil in the CCV, car uses about 5L oil in 30.000 KM, would be no more than
    1L if .... 100% could be catched. The CCV in real did catch 1cc every 1000KM which would be 30cc (3%) a year. Nothing !
    Cutting away something that does’nt work would never be frozen again.
    After this operation the car reacts more quickly to the accelleration-pedal.

    Decelerating from 4k RPM does vacuum downsizing to about zero/H2O.
    Crusing at 5k RPM shows also about zero/H2O.
    I guess the hose from the CCV to the intake-manifold is to narrow and can’t deliver at 5k RPM



    Tomorrow I will change the narrow hoses and mount a hose between the smal nipple on the CCV and the intake-manifold or the rubber hose between AMM and TB ( test )
    ( If necessary, to restrict the flow, I will mount a valve in those hoses ( test )
    It is this point at which I was thinking about in my reply in the thread.
    Maybe I am totally wrong, we will see. )




    For sure I don’t want pressure in the crankcase under any operating condition.
    The changes I do intent should if possible prevent further progress in using oil.
    ( caused by prezzurised crankcase )
    I will keep you informed about the results ASAP I have some.

    For any suggestion you are welcome.





    Last edited by incoplan; 03-07-2017 at 09:00 AM. Reason: changed color to black

  11. #11
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    An engineer farted in a mechanical forum.

    Sigh.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  12. #12
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    From someone who has had a long career as a research engineer...... do some more reading, you need to do more than pull one formula out of....... Note in particular the temperature issues involved. I think you'll find BMW did before they designed a crankcase ventilation system that works perfectly well.

    http://www.ematem.org/Dokumente/2008_lau_calculat.pdf

    Sadly Chris, yes. With any luck the formulas in the included link will assist in removing the after effects....

  13. #13
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    May study the operation of a complicated valve that is/was used for operation a stirring in a Boeing 737 ?
    ( 3 of those Boeings did crash )

    At this moment bypassing the valve of the OEM CCV in a certain way gives about 4"/H2O more basic vacuum.
    Last edited by incoplan; 03-08-2017 at 02:27 AM.

  14. #14
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    @bmwdirtracer
    "An engineer farted in a mechanical forum".

    Sigh.


    Obviously you know the song: "There is something in the air" ?
    Last edited by incoplan; 03-08-2017 at 04:31 AM.

  15. #15
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    Cutting off the oilseparator from the OEM CCV was a good idea.
    Took a second just so amputated OEM CCV and made a bypass including a restrictor somewhere between those 2 and the VC-outlet. Vacuum crankcase now cummutes between 2" and 16"H2O ( and not taking vacuum from the intake manifold )
    2000RPM and 2 feet on the accelerator is something for idiots.
    Now will supply the oilseparator of X5 model. A annual use of 5L oil and only 15% on the account of blowby gases of which could maybe 30% catched, there is no need making a lot of investments in a more dadicated system getting a few cc's more.
    I know, two members told me I was TOTALLY wrong, but I will do it this way.
    Last edited by incoplan; 04-07-2017 at 06:25 PM.

  16. #16
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    vrijdag 24 maart 2017 265.jpg

    BMW 528i/M52; OEM CCV valve + BMW X5 OEM CCV cyclone
    idle at 750 rpm, vacuum 36 cm/H2O
    a second hose to the distribution piece, bypassing the OEM CCV valve.

    update 03-27-2017
    wider hose and more vacuum, 44cm/H2O
    after test-drive of 32km, full throttle and 200 km/h topspeed, the separate X5 cyclone catched about 2cc oil, about 4 times as much as usually but the total oil consumption might also be as much as 4 times as usual.

    update 04-01-2017
    controlling the vacuum by the U-hose the vacuum was no longer building up slowly for about 20 sec., but stopped all of a sudden, showing 28cm/H2O
    The oil return hose to the dipstick was the quilty one.
    I replaced the 12mm hose and now again the vacuum is building up slowly in the second half of it's way up, stopping at about 60cm/H2O. ( < 1 second to about 40cm/H2O )
    In the second narrow hose somewhere between OEM CCV valve and distribution piece are mounted two 2mm restrictors.
    Without those restricors vacuum would be more than 120cm/H2O and that would be overdone.
    Oil consume is now < 1qt 8000 km.
    Last edited by incoplan; 04-01-2017 at 02:18 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiesiek View Post
    OK, so is the valve broke or only broke sometimes?
    It is a combination of a poorly designed / failed CCV and carbon build up on the oil control piston rings.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WuXU6LDbD4s

    Looking for an E39 belly pan , passenger front inner fender liner …

  18. #18
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    Chris, I followed your recommendation. More than a couple of hours and more than a hundred bucks later my car is fine. Thank you for the authoritative advise! While I was at it, it turns out my DISA valve was kaput so I got a new one as well. Now I hope for a better performance and maybe even a little better MPG. Thanks again.

  19. #19
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    So an extra vacuum line to a good CCV usually fixes the problems?
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
    - 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
    - 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
    - 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
    - 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
    - 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
    - 2016 Mini Cooper S

  20. #20
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    Abel, my VERY erudite friend, note that the problem here was a failed CCV system, NOT excessive oil consumption, and that my advice was to replace the valve and 4 associated hoses/pipes. To the best of my knowledge, no extra plumbing was necessary. More importantly, there was no mention of excess oil consumption being the actual problem here. In my experience, this will be true the VAST majority of the time. (Old German plastic turns to rubber, and old German rubber turns to plastic)

    O2 Pilot's epic thread deals with the percentage of cars which consume excessive amounts of oil, in spite of the CCV system being in perfect condition, and the intake/ccv systems being perfectly sealed, and crankcase vacuum being correct at 3-6" of water.

    Under those circumstances, O2 pilot has compiled extensive evidence and testimony that 2 feet of vacuum hose can make the oil consumption issue go away, but he's VERY careful to note, over and over, that the basic tests of the integrity and function of the system are Priority 1..

    Certainly, as many racers have done, you can run a catch can, and separate the crankcase from the intake entirely, or even go through the extensive mods of incorporating a catch can into the stock system.

    Personally, my first step will always be to smoke the system (20 minutes). That's usually enough, but if not, I test crankcase vacuum (5 minutes). And then, I'll throw the crankcase vent valve and 4 associated hoses, because that's ALWAYS fixed the problem, for me and my customers, well over a hundred times.

    As for oil consumption problems, the M54 is WAY down the list, from turbo MINIs. These engines hold 4.5 quarts, have no oil level sensor, and typically consume a quart every thousand miles. Imagine: the FIRST light you see is a RED oil can!

    On the bright side, I used my replacement S62 on the track, at full tilt, all day Friday, and several sessions on both Saturday and Sunday. Fuel mileage was 6.2 mpg during this period (including ten miles to the hotel....and back....and double that) Two full tanks of fuel....total oil consumption: not enough to adjust. Damn, that's good....my E34 S38 used at least a quart per event.

    Oh, and Abel, thanks to your talents, not a single misfire was recorded !

    The worst happening of the weekend was when I forgot to turn off the DSC, leaving the pits. I completed T1, out of the pits, brake check, all quite slow, comparatively. T2 is non existent at that speed, braked for T3, and turned in under trail braking, depending on rotation caused by trail brake. Didn't happen. FKG DSC, I forgot. Dropped front tire off pavement at tail end of braking area (its an angled turn in, no curb). No big deal. This was in the dry. After my first full day on the track with this car, in the rain, on Friday, well, it's certainly got the same soft, reliable behavior as the E34M5, plus torque. Perfect for rain, very sloppy and tire-melting, in the dry. The tires screamed like wounded cows after ten laps dry.

    In the rain, GT3's and C7s, in the hands of instructors, got out of the way of the big pig car. {Blame it on the Michelin PSSs}
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 04-04-2017 at 10:34 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  21. #21
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    Yes, I got ahead of myself. Intact CCV, and then if oil consumption, add a vacuum line. Good. I have a crazy idea to put the m54b30 manifold with working DISA on my old M52B28 single vanos, for torque. But I would have to adopt the M54 CCV .


    I'm so glad the M5 performed well, and even made other cars move.

    I have one video of my lowly 328 making an E39 M5 move, but they were timid drivers. I did get one better E46 M3 driver to stop me after and compliment how well the 328 held up against him. That was fun.
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
    - 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
    - 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
    - 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
    - 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
    - 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
    - 2016 Mini Cooper S

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 328 Power 04 View Post
    Yes, I got ahead of myself. Intact CCV, and then if oil consumption, add a vacuum line. Good. I have a crazy idea to put the m54b30 manifold with working DISA on my old M52B28 single vanos, for torque. But I would have to adopt the M54 CCV .


    I'm so glad the M5 performed well, and even made other cars move.

    I have one video of my lowly 328 making an E39 M5 move, but they were timid drivers. I did get one better E46 M3 driver to stop me after and compliment how well the 328 held up against him. That was fun.
    Maybe you should be afraid the tranny of the M52B28 could not withstand that much of torque ?

  23. #23
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    The 5speed ZF tranny from the 328 is the same of the s50b30 Euro M3 with 286bhp and 320 NM of torque. This tranny is known to be bullet proof and some people downgrade their getrag 6speed from the s50b32 Euro for track use.

    Abel I'm interested in the mods of your 328i. Also is the m54b30 manifold more beneficial then the m50?
    Last edited by WadiM3; 04-05-2017 at 05:05 PM.
    C217 S63 AMG S Cabriolet ( Daily )

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadiM3 View Post
    The 5speed ZF tranny from the 328 is the same of the s50b30 Euro M3 with 286bhp and 320 NM of torque. This tranny is known to be bullet proof and some people downgrade their getrag 6speed from the s50b32 Euro for track use.

    Abel I'm interested in the mods of your 328i. Also is the m54b30 manifold more beneficial then the m50?
    Exactly my point about the gearbox. It's a very robust unit. Mine doesn't even have the shift pin issue.




    But the very experimental M54B30 intake manifold is *theoretically* more beneficial, because it is a two stage manifold. When DISA valve is on (closed), it behaves like a long runner intake manifold (through clever use of resonance chambers), so it is set up for torque. When DISA is off, it is similar to short intake runner manifold, so at high rpm this is good for high flow (similar to M50 manifold).

    Very experimental. It should at least flow as well as the M50 manifold, but without the torque losses (because of DISA valve).
    But I have to get the DME to control that DISA valve. So that's some pretty custom tuning and wiring that I have to do.
    But now I'm kinda skeptical about that CCV system. The normal M52 CCV system worked well enough for many miles.

    Also it's not going to make THAT much more torque.. but it should be noticeable.
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
    - 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
    - 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
    - 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
    - 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
    - 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
    - 2016 Mini Cooper S

  25. #25
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    I hardly think that the mods on Abel's 328 will have increased the torque to the point his transmission would be in danger. It's still normally aspirated, still the same displacement....how much could the torque have increased?


    And besides, if it breaks, he can pick from any number of BMW transmissions at a salvage yard...

    And who knows, maybe he'll want to stick an M62TU in it one day? Ive got a spare G420 for a V8.....


    Mohammed, the M54 manifold isn't suitable for an engine that came without DISA. To the best of my knowledge, your M50 manifold will provide the best power and torque, on your engine.

    EDIT: Crossed posts with Abel....I was writing and eating at the same time. But I think the posts echo exactly the same particulars, don't they?
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 04-05-2017 at 09:04 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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