no start after Crank position sensor swap - SOLVED

[yardpro]

Hi everyone,

I am the new owner of a troubled 96 328is. I bought it for my son. I previously had an 89 528 and a 535. so i am not new to BMW, also have a few old Porsche (2 87 928), and cayenne. I have also owned a few Jags and range rovers. I only say this to let everyone i am not strainer to wrenching on cars.

I bought the car and it would start and run,but it was hard to start and ran rough like timing was off or was missing on cylinders.

I had o2 codes, as well as a crank position sensor malfunction code.

I assumed it was a crank sensor issue and bought the car. I ordered a OEM crank position sensor and replaced it. Now it will not start at all.

while i was waiting for the sensor i pulled the plugs and checked compression. 210 across the board.

two of the wells were full of water and the coil boots looked rusty/crappy. i reinstalled the plugs and coils,but not in same order,as i assume there is no specific order to the coils.

now after new crank sensor the car will not start and i still get the crank position sensor code.

any guidance would be much apprecieated....

thanks in advance

[FiberFast]

Check the coils with a volt meter or just replace them. Replace the cam sensor as well, double check your work. Make sure the sensor has voltage. Check and or replace the maf and O2, check/clean the idle control valve last but certainly not least look for vacuum leaks... They plague these cars and are the source of allot of issues.

[Richard81]

Hi everyone,
now after new crank sensor the car will not start and i still get the crank position sensor code.

You may have a problem with your crank sensor wiring. You need to ohm out the crank sensor and the cam sensor from the dme's clamp. You'll need a $10 digital multimeter for this, as well as the pinouts from the E36 bentley manual which can be found.

And further, you need to do pretty much all the tests stated in this post here, which I wrote for someone else with the same issue.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...8#post29606758

It will take up about 30-60 minutes to do all of those tests. Don't buy anything without checking all this out first.

Hi everyone,
two of the wells were full of water and the coil boots looked rusty/crappy.

If they were full of water and not oil, your rubber hood liner running along the firewall is busted and allowing rainwater to get into the engine even when the hood is down. And your plastic BMW cover's rubber liner underneath which is also there to shield the coils from water is also busted. This can be relatively easily fixed, but first I'd like you to check those two out.

Coils boots need to be cleaned. Carb cleaner and a toothbrush. You can of course replace them, new boots are not expensive and you don't have to buy oem. But boots are not a big deal. You can apply dielectric grease to the outside of each boot thats in contact with the plug well and you'll be fine. Make sure you don't get any grease on the inside of the boot, or on the spark plug itself.

[shogun]

You may have a problem with your crank sensor wiring. You need to ohm out the crank sensor and the cam sensor from the dme's clamp. You'll need a $10 digital multimeter for this, as well as the pinouts from the E36 bentley manual which can be found.

Are you sure that that is not a hall sensor?
Because if it is a hall effect sensor, testing it with an ohmmeter can destroy it, says the maker Hella for example http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/1263031/

we had the case here https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ht=hall+sensor

[samy01]

i'm not completely sure about e36, but in most cases the crank sensor is an inductive sensor which you can ohm out. cam sensors are often hall sensors

[shogun]

let's for example take your EURO 328i Coupe, Pulse generator, crankshaft up to 09/1998 12141703277
Artikelinfo: Sensorart:Hallsensor, ab/from Baujahr: 01/1993 to/bis Baujahr: 09/1998 , Motorcode: M52
https://www.autoteiledirekt.de/oenum...141703277.html and that has not 540ohm, not 1200, not ..., just 18ohm, Widerstand [kOhm]:18 Motorcode: M50 B25

[Richard81]

Hi Shogun, I read your posts.

1. Can't find the place where it Hella says ohmmeters will damage hall effect sensors. Please help.
2. The NZ dude's dealer tested their own sensors with ohmmeters and confirmed them to be 800ohms, which were in specs.

3. There were two resolutions of that NZ dude's thread :
a. That he had a different problem on his car, not the sensor he was blaming
b. that the best way to test a hall effect sensor is by using an oscilloscope and exposing it to a spinning wheel.

ibleOf course that's the best way but it is not practical in a diy setting. Also not possible in a no start context. It is also not necessary. If something ohms out correctly it should be fine in all other respects. It is within specs, and shows continuity. Good assumption that it is fine.

A dmm, when switched to the ohmeter setting, send a super micro current through a device and measures the return current, potential drop, or both (can't remember) of the returning current and calculates and displays the resistance. It needs to do this without damaging anything, and this is done by using a really tiny current. This still works to produce accurate results when modern microelectronics are used. Dmms al use very small values to reduce the amount of error introduce into readings by the dmm itself (because it too has a internal resistance, potential difference, etc etc). Don't quite see how this can damage anything.

[Richard81]

Ok, I found what you were talking about. I had it translated from the original german. I'll check up on that and get back to you. But the fact that NZ's bmw dealers were checking their hall effect sensors with ohmmeters strongly suggests that this by itself cannot damage the sensor.

[Richard81]

And I think i've figured out why Hella put that warning there. The old voltmeters, ammeters and ohmmeters (which are a combination of both), the ones that used analogue dials...they probably needed to feed higher currents through a circuit to get a result that would move the needle enough for someone to see what's going on. These currents can damage today's hall effect sensors. However, dmms (digital multimeters) use extremely tiny currents for everything. Thats because they run on microelectronics themselves, not magnets and needles as in the analogue meters. So dmms will not damage hall effect sensors.

So to be clear, checking output current while the engine is running is the best way to test a hall effect sensor. But this is not possible in a no start context. You can of course have the car cranked by someone else while you hold your dmm to your hall effect sensor, but that's unweildy, and unnecessary. As long as it ohms out right you can pretty much be sure that everything else about it is right.

OP, proceed with my original instructions. Shogun, if you have it handy, please do me a favour and post the ohm values for the crank and cam sensors for the M50 and M52 engines. I'll insert that into my original posts telling people to test for these. Thank you.

[shogun]

Here are all E36 listed on a German site for the corresponding Hella CPS Impulsgeber, Kurbelwelle 6PU 009 110-0, BMW 1 703 277, 12 14 1 703 277
Sensorart: Hallsensor , Nennspannung [V]:12 V https://www.x1-autoteile.de/produkt/...0009%20110-001
all this refers to the E36 EURO I selected for samy01

And this is the German text copied from the Hella info, hope you understand German:
Kurbelwellensensoren haben die Aufgabe, die Drehzahl und die Kurbelwellenposition zu ermitteln. Sie werden am häufigsten in der Nähe des Schwungrads an einem Zahnkranz eingebaut. Es gibt zwei Bauarten:
Induktivgeber und Hallgeber. Vor einer Kurbelwellensensor-Prüfung muss unbedingt ermittelt werden, um welche Art von Geber es sich handelt. Die Drehbewegung des Zahnkranzes bewirkt Magnetfeldänderungen. Die von den Magnetfeldern erzeugten unterschiedlichen Spannungssignale werden an das Steuergerät geleitet. Aus den Signalen errechnet das Steuergerät Drehzahl und Position der Kurbelwelle, um wichtige Grunddaten für die Einspritzung und Zündverstellung zu erhalten. Bei einem Ausfall des Kurbelwellensensors können folgende Fehlersymptome auftreten:
■ Aussetzen des Motors
■ Motorstillstand
■ Abspeichern eines Fehlercodes
Ausfallursachen können sein:
■ Innere Kurzschlüsse
■ Leitungsunterbrechungen
■ Leitungskurzschluss
■ Mechanische Beschädigungen des Geberrades
■ Verschmutzungen durch Metallabrieb
■ Auslesen des Fehlerspeichers
■ Elektrische Anschlüsse der Sensorleitungen, des Steckers und des Sensors auf richtige Verbindung, Bruch und Korrosion prüfen
■ Auf Verschmutzung und Beschädigung achten
Die direkte Überprüfung des Kurbelwellensensors kann schwierig werden, wenn man nicht die genaue Bauart des Sensors kennt. Vor der Prüfung muss geklärt werden, ob es sich um einen Induktiv oder Hallgeber handelt. Die beiden lassen sich optisch nicht immer voneinander unterscheiden. Bei einer Steckerpinanzahl von drei lassen sich keine genauen Aussagen über den jeweiligen Typ treffen. Hier helfen die spezifischen Herstellerangaben und die Angaben im Ersatzteilkatalog weiter. Solange die Bauart nicht eindeutig geklärt ist, darf kein Ohmmeter für die Überprüfung benutzt werden. Es könnte einen Hallgeber zerstören!

Besitzt der Sensor einen 2-poligen Stecker, handelt es sich vorrangig um einen Induktivgeber. Hier können der Innenwiderstand, ein eventueller Masseschluss und das Signal ermittelt werden. Dazu entfernt man die Steckverbindung und prüft den Innenwiderstand des Sensors. Beträgt der Innenwiderstandswert 200 bis 1.000 Ohm (je nach Sollwert), ist der Sensor in Ordnung. Bei 0 Ohm liegt ein Kurzschluss und bei M Ohm eine Unterbrechung vor. Die Masseschlussprüfung erfolgt mit dem Ohmmeter von einem Anschlusspin zur Fahrzeugmasse. Der Widerstandswert muss gegen unendlich tendieren. Die Überprüfung mit einem Oszilloskop muss ein Sinussignal in ausreichender Stärke ergeben. Bei einem Hallgeber sind lediglich die Signalspannung in Form eines Rechtecksignals und die Versorgungsspannung zu überprüfen. Es muss sich in Abhängigkeit von der Motordrehzahl ein Rechtecksignal ergeben. Es sei noch einmal gesagt: Der Einsatz eines Ohmmeters kann den Hallgeber zerstören.

and here someone uploaded that Hella info, see page 22 and 23 of more than 100 , Fahrzeugelektronik - Leicht gemacht! Teil 1 http://markus.tizara.de/docs/Elektro...nics_Part1.pdf
Hella, Lippstadt 9Z2 999 026-615 000/03.08.07 Printed in Germany

[samy01]

it actually just says that hall and inductive are not always looking different visually and if it has 3 wires it's not possible to say 100% which one it is. i don't really trust those parts websites, i would've said it's an inductive one, but if it says it's an hall sensor then that's probably the way it is. an oscilloscope would clear this, but no one's going to do that i guess

[Richard81]

No Shogun, I can't read german, but due to the beauty of google translate, all the (relevent) portion states is " do not test the hall effect sensor with an ohmmeter you might damage it ! "

I've already solved this issue for you. Please do read my earlier posts. You probably did not see them when copying over the german tet. Thank you btw.

OP (original poster), once again, proceed on my original directions and get back to us after you've concluded that battery of tests.

[shogun]

yes, part websites have also faults, but you understood what Hella says.
That sensor which I found on realoem for your car, 12141703277 is also installed on newer cars
part 12141703277 was found on the following vehicles:
3' E36   (11/1992 — 08/2000)
5' E39   (02/1995 — 06/2003)
7' E38   (03/1995 — 07/2001)
Z3 E36   (07/1996 — 05/2000)

and that number I found should be a hall sensor, see also here Euro M52 front mounted hall effect crank position sensor (12141703277) http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...p?f=42&t=12644
Anyway, that all refers to your EURO version with a manufacturing date I do not know.

Lets go back to the subject of TO and as we do not have his VIN, we do not know which CPS installed.

[yardpro]

My car does indeed have a read mounted sensor. I did get the oem, which is a Hall sensor.

I am taking the intake manifold off this weekend to check the wiring. It appears that the wiring is pinched behind the connector under the intake. the previous owner had just had the head done, and i think that the wiring may be compromised, as after i replaced the sensor i still got the crank position sensor fault code.

I will update this post this weekend when i can finish up the removal and testing.

[yardpro]

so heres the update.

after i swapped the crank position sensor i could not get the car to start at all... i had mixed up wires.

after i figured that out now it starts and i got the crank position code to clear.

now it idles but roughly

i am getting codes p1189
p0154

it sounds like its missing if you give it too much gas it sputters.

[yardpro]

Not sure how to edit the title to reflect that problem is solved for people for future searches.

Here's the flow of troubleshooting.

it was missing after crank sensor swap. had a rough loping idle and really rich fuel smell. had a bank2 sensor 1 code.
checked the vac lines and everything tested oK.

pulled the coils and checked with an inline spark gap tool. all coils were firing.

used noid light to verify all injectors were being told to fire.

car would run, but ran rough and idled very lumpy. when in a tall gear, and accelerating it would shake... definitely missing.

last week i got my used laptop with serial and xp and got inpa, etc loaded.

got the program hooked up thursday and looked at info. Cylinder 5 roughness was off the chart.

got the new upstream o2 sensor installed today and ran better but still had a miss. still showed cylinder 5 roughness very high.

switched coil and plug to cylinder 2 roughness moved with it....

switched coils and roughness stared on 2... BAD plug...

with all the cars, mowers, boats, various internal combustion engines i mess with over the past decade, it has been EXTREMELY rage for me to actually find plug bad.... go figure...

idles so smooth when in the car it sounds like the motor has cut off....

power.... VERY impressed with the power... i almost thing its too fast for my sons first car.

[shogun]

Thanks for the detailed info how the problem was solved, will add to the thread title SOLVED