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Thread: Frustrating BMW e36 328is starting issue

  1. #1
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    Frustrating BMW e36 328is starting issue

    Hello Bimmerforum members!

    READ NO FURTHER

    ***********solved issue************
    The wiring harness was damaged inside the splice box due to water incursion resulting in corrosion. The car is running a RK SC tune so none of the sensors have a limp mode, it appears that the 803 3.5" MAF wiring was broken at the signal and dual ground splice wire. It was poorly done by the PO, I replaced the wiring harness completely with one with no corrosion and properly mounted the splice box and the car is running perfectly. Thank You BF for all the help!




    I have a very strange issue with my e36 328is i will list the mods so you know the deal;

    Dr. Vanos Stage Four (cant remember if thats what its called but its supposed to be the best one)
    s52 cams
    3.5 inch maf
    supersprint headers
    m50 intake Manifold
    3 inch full exhaust
    ACT stage four clutch
    3.91 posi diff
    Tune by rk tunes and Maximum Psi
    Dynoed 260hp 320 tq
    42# injectors
    areomotive 340
    car has ran PERFECTLY since 2013

    essentially the issue I am having is that I start the car and in runs for about a half a second and dies regardless of throttle. NO CODES AT ALL!
    I have noticed if i open the throttle more it only runs for an instant very strange... this is what ive tried:


    Pressure tested and dissembled entire intake system NO LEAKS AT ALL.
    Changed Spark plugs
    swapped to known working fuel pump
    new fuel filter and pressure regulator
    inspected all coil packs and tested good
    leakdown tested all cylinders under 3%
    tested IACV cleaning was not necessary as it ws literally the cleanest IACV I have ever seen.
    *********Strongly suspect MAF sensor as i found water in the connector!***********


    I would like to see if that makes any sense at all to you guys, also I am wondering if or what the test procedure is for a 3.5 inch MAF i do have a Fluke multimeter.


    Thanks in advance!!
    IMG_3806 (1).jpg
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 07-07-2017 at 10:55 AM.

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    Ok. First, read this :

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...0#post29606620

    Then do the sniff test on your regulator, and the disconnect test on your front end driveability sensors both of which are outlined here :

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...0#post29606290


    ...starting with the coolant temp sensor.

    And do anything else mentioned in those two posts that you haven't explicitly checked. Importantly, test for spark. That will confirm that your coils, coil wiring, cps, cps wiring, and dme are all working fine, in one single test.

  3. #3
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    Test or replace your fuel pump relay. The car doesn't run so you really can't test the MAF output.

    Even though you have no codes, you have to test your cam and crank sensors.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post

    Pressure tested and dissembled entire intake system NO LEAKS AT ALL.
    Changed Spark plugs
    swapped to known working fuel pump
    new fuel filter and pressure regulator
    inspected all coil packs and tested good
    leakdown tested all cylinders under 3%
    tested IACV cleaning was not necessary as it ws literally the cleanest IACV I have ever seen.
    *********Strongly suspect MAF sensor as i found water in the connector!***********
    There was no need to do any of those underlined elements without first testing and identifying the specific problem first. Everything that you did is time consuming. There are far simpler ways to check that out.

    Op I know you didn't realise all that before doing it - too bad you didn't get here earlier. Just putting that out there to ensure newbies don't get the wrong idea.

    Btw...those are excellent leakdown numbers. Near racing engine levels. What is the mileage on your pistons ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric93se View Post
    Test or replace your fuel pump relay. The car doesn't run so you really can't test the MAF output.

    Even though you have no codes, you have to test your cam and crank sensors.

    Hey guys thanks for the responses!

    I neglected to mention I did check the Fuel Pump Relay and Verified I do have spark. I will check those other sensors though, however I was of the understanding that the CPS will not let the car start at all as it does start right up i did not think that was it. It runs then stops immediatley. I suppose i could see the cam sensor misregulating the injection as I do smell raw fuel from the tailpipe immediately after it stalls. BTW I did verify that the fuel pump has power for the short time it runs. you can imagine I would really rather Not drop $500.00 on a new MAF! haha



    I just read those two threads I have attempted the unplug disconnect i am really starting to wonder if this is in fact a failed Cam position sensor does that sound possible? Would the car start at all if it was shot?

    - - - Updated - - -

    HAHA LMAO you will not believe it ITS AT 198,000miles!!
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 02-21-2017 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post
    Hey guys thanks for the responses!

    I suppose i could see the cam sensor misregulating the injection as I do smell raw fuel from the tailpipe immediately after it stalls.
    This has never been responsible for a no start issue ever. Cam sensors fine tune injector timing, not injector duration. And fine tune means a tad either way for perfect fuel economy, not to avoid no starts.

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post
    BTW I did verify that the fuel pump has power for the short time it runs. you can imagine I would really rather Not drop $500.00 on a new MAF! haha
    No one buys new mafs. Just get a good used oem maf for $50. Or get ten. Mafs are one of the few sensitive devices on the car which are reliable even after 20 years. Anyway, before all of that, scrutinise my first post in your thread and once you've done everything listed there, report back to us. Your car will most likely be running fine by then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post

    HAHA LMAO you will not believe it ITS AT 198,000miles!!
    3% leakdown at 198k.

    Everybody who's ever shit on their engines, please go and kiss it. This is the power of BMW's alloy metallurgy and piston engineering.......20 years ago.

  7. #7
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    I just want to emphasize one more time the car started IMMEDIATLEY then dies IMMEDIATLEY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post
    I just want to emphasize one more time the car started IMMEDIATLEY then dies IMMEDIATLEY.
    That's typical of large vacuum leaks. Now, since you have already tested and ruled those out, I guess you'll have to go through everything else because yes all the issues which cause no starts can also cause quick engine cutoffs.

    Oh yea. One driveability sensor I forgot to include. The tps (throttle position sensor). Check on that.

    You cannot escape a boring troubleshooting process. The best way to reduce your suffering is to conclude it efficiently.

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    I did test the TPS with the unplug test immediatley got a code but when i was watching the live data on the scanner i noticed it was quite laggy bt it could have been my scanner as well... i guess the thing to do is ohm test the CrPS and CaPS and source a new to me MAF if those check out,again thanks I will report back!

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    When you say you pressure tested the intake, do you mean a smoke test ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard81 View Post
    That's typical of large vacuum leaks. Now, since you have already tested and ruled those out, I guess you'll have to go through everything else because yes all the issues which cause no starts can also cause quick engine cutoffs.

    Oh yea. One driveability sensor I forgot to include. The tps (throttle position sensor). Check on that.

    You cannot escape a boring troubleshooting process. The best way to reduce your suffering is to conclude it efficiently.


    OK guys,

    I just used my multimeter to test the cam position sensor tps and did a pressure smoke test tight as a jamacian drum. the CaPs tested at exactly 12.5 ohms which is to the letter what it should be.....
    i got to the Crank position sensor and unplugged it gave it a try nearly the same result except it was a little harder to start and it immediatley threw a crank position sensor code. I do not consider the crank sensor ruled out yet.
    I however just finished testing for spark, its there and looks like a supernova cant see that being the issue.

    Crazy question time could I have gotten real bad gas and now it wont run? i smell a lot of fuel in the pipe it has air, spark, and lots of compression like WTF? Only thing I have left is changing the fuel out

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes I have now done two lol.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post

    Crazy question time could I have gotten real bad gas and now it wont run? i smell a lot of fuel in the pipe it has air, spark, and lots of compression like WTF? Only thing I have left is changing the fuel out
    If you had followed all the directions in my first post to you with those embedded links, you would no longer be wondering what was wrong with your engine.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard81 View Post
    If you had followed all the directions in my first post to you with those embedded links, you would no longer be wondering what was wrong with your engine.


    I did do all of those things though what have I not done? I read and excecuted each test to the letter. Tell me what I missed.
    I am Sorry If I was unclear but I really did check all of those things.
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 02-21-2017 at 05:07 PM.

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    1. Did you check the regulator's vacuum hose ?

    2. Did you try using starter fluid or carb cleaner with the fp fuse off, to start the engine ?

    3. Did you do the disconnect test on the tps, maf, cts and iat in turn? Disconnecting one, starting, then reconnecting it and disconnecting the next?

    4. Did you reoil the chambers to compensate for bore wash ?

    And all of the above to be done in that sequence?

    All of that was in my embedded links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post
    OK guys,

    I just used my multimeter to test the cam position sensor tps and did a pressure smoke test tight as a jamacian drum. the CaPs tested at exactly 12.5 ohms which is to the letter what it should be.....
    i got to the Crank position sensor and unplugged it gave it a try nearly the same result except it was a little harder to start and it immediatley threw a crank position sensor code. I do not consider the crank sensor ruled out yet.
    I however just finished testing for spark, its there and looks like a supernova cant see that being the issue.
    If you have spark, you can rule out :

    a. Crank sensor
    b. Crank sensor wiring to the dme
    c. Coils
    d. Plugs
    e. DME
    f. Starter
    g. Battery

    Spark cannot occur without all of these functioning normally.

  16. #16
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    I haven't just been working on this today its been since Friday. Most of the things you mentioned were done even before I made this. In short yes I did. However I did not do the DW40 trick as I as before stated I did do a leakdown test all tested Below three percent, furthermore it does start it just doesn't stay running. You must understand I never make A post unless I am completely stumped. If you think i should try the WD40 I will but that's the only thing i skipped...

    Ok well ill consider The crank sensor ruled out totally then.
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 02-21-2017 at 05:43 PM.

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    So you checked the fuel pressure regulator's vacuum hose for a gasoline smell ? I know you've had it changed recently but I need you to check. Please answer this question specifically in your next post.

    A quick startup and shut down is most frequently due to low rail pressure. This is tested in the following way. Spray carb cleaner into the intake through the brake booster - im fitting. Spray alot. Refit the booster hose without tightening it. Start the engine. Go back to the engine with the carb cleaner, yank the hose and keep spraying in directly and see if the engine keeps going. It may cough due to the vacuum leak introduced by removing the booster hose but it should keep going. If that's the case then its confirmed that rail pressure is the problem. Keep the fp fuse in throughout during this test.

    If that doesn't pan out, then time to reoil the chambers.

    After reoiling the chambers, unplug the cts and then try to start. If the engine starts, let it run for 60 seconds exactly, and then reconnect the cts and start. If it starts, let it run for 10 seconds, stop, reconnect the cts, unplug the maf and restart. Don't go further than there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard81 View Post
    So you checked the fuel pressure regulator's vacuum hose for a gasoline smell ? I know you've had it changed recently but I need you to check. Please answer this question specifically in your next post.

    A quick startup and shut down is most frequently due to low rail pressure. This is tested in the following way. Spray carb cleaner into the intake through the brake booster - im fitting. Spray alot. Refit the booster hose without tightening it. Start the engine. Go back to the engine with the carb cleaner, yank the hose and keep spraying in directly and see if the engine keeps going. It may cough due to the vacuum leak introduced by removing the booster hose but it should keep going. If that's the case then its confirmed that rail pressure is the problem. Keep the fp fuse in throughout during this test.

    If that doesn't pan out, then time to reoil the chambers.

    After reoiling the chambers, unplug the cts and then try to start. If the engine starts, let it run for 60 seconds exactly, and then reconnect the cts and start. If it starts, let it run for 10 seconds, stop, reconnect the cts, unplug the maf and restart. Don't go further than there.

    I am sorry but im super tired and probably not thinking straight but what is the CTS? And yes it was one of the first things i checked when the new Fuel Pressure Regulator didnt help. Smelled like old rubber only.
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 02-21-2017 at 06:43 PM.

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    cts - coolant temp sensor. Screwed on the cylinder head.
    iat- intake air temp sensor. Either on the intake manifold or the bumper.
    maf - air mass sensor.
    icv - idle control valve
    tps - throttle position sensor
    02 - o2 sensor

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why don't you get some rest and come back later. After all the car's been down since friday it can wait another day or a few hours. When you're tired, you miss key observations, mess up simple actions, and even if you get everything right, you generally take much longer than you should, which really frustrates you. Not good when we are chasing this right now.

    In the morning you'll probably figure it out within 10 minutes flat. Has happened to all of us and probably to you many times before.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard81 View Post
    cts - coolant temp sensor. Screwed on the cylinder head.
    iat- intake air temp sensor. Either on the intake manifold or the bumper.
    maf - air mass sensor.
    icv - idle control valve
    tps - throttle position sensor
    02 - o2 sensor

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why don't you get some rest and come back later. After all the car's been down since friday it can wait another day or a few hours. When you're tired, you miss key observations, mess up simple actions, and even if you get everything right, you generally take much longer than you should, which really frustrates you. Not good when we are chasing this right now.

    In the morning you'll probably figure it out within 10 minutes flat. Has happened to all of us and probably to you many times before.


    Thanks I appreciate that that's exactly what I did! However I worked on it all day today and I still am no closer to where I was before. I ran the car like you said on staring fluid it will run on starting fluid once I stopped spraying it it smelled like it was finally burning gas but only on a few cylinders, it ran for about 5 minutes after i stopped and put the line back on. Nevertheless, I have suspected a fuel pressure issue from the start which I feel is now confirmed. Something I did notice is that when the pump primes and I put my finger on the line directly from the pump it almost feels like there's air mixed in with the gas even before the filter and regulator. I am wondering if maybe water mixed in can create this strange turbulence also though.... Quite stumped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard81 View Post
    cts - coolant temp sensor. Screwed on the cylinder head.
    iat- intake air temp sensor. Either on the intake manifold or the bumper.
    maf - air mass sensor.
    icv - idle control valve
    tps - throttle position sensor
    02 - o2 sensor
    cks - crank position sensor

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why don't you get some rest and come back later. After all the car's been down since friday it can wait another day or a few hours. When you're tired, you miss key observations, mess up simple actions, and even if you get everything right, you generally take much longer than you should, which really frustrates you. Not good when we are chasing this right now.

    In the morning you'll probably figure it out within 10 minutes flat. Has happened to all of us and probably to you many times before.

    Was not the crank sensor every one of them cracks but they work anyway...
    Last edited by michaelbruno369; 07-07-2017 at 11:00 AM.

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    Yea no it's not fixed hahaha still starts then dies. I noticed with the maf unplugged I still get no codes at all.

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    You should get a code with anything unplugged. That is truly strange. Perhaps the wiring from the obd2 port to the ecu is damaged. Can you get any information at all?

    Anyway, for the record, unplug your maf and your coolant temperature sensor. Then start the engine. If it starts and stays running, its one of these two devices. Unplug individually and test to isolate.

    If it doesn't start and stay running with both unplugged, then you most likely have a fuel pressure issue. It could be a bad regulator, a clogged fuel filter, or a failing fuel pump, or a bad leak somewhere.

    There are of course many other possibilities but those two would be the more likely ones and what you should inspect first before going onto anything else.
    Last edited by DrJBM; 03-20-2017 at 03:27 AM.

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    Well, it helps to look through what you've already written.

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbruno369 View Post
    Thanks I appreciate that that's exactly what I did! However I worked on it all day today and I still am no closer to where I was before. I ran the car like you said on staring fluid it will run on starting fluid once I stopped spraying it it smelled like it was finally burning gas but only on a few cylinders, it ran for about 5 minutes after i stopped and put the line back on. Nevertheless, I have suspected a fuel pressure issue from the start which I feel is now confirmed.
    There you've got your issue. You found it much earlier. Now you need to find out exactly what is causing it. Fuel leak, fuel pump, filter, regulator, or any com,bination of thses.

    Its better if you just set down and bowl through this issue and keep at it till its fixed. If not you'll forget all the stuff you did earlier and you'll have to repeat tests and checks unnecessarily. Every little thing that you do helps to rule in or rule out stuff, but because they may be little things you will forget if you step away from the car for too long.

    DRJ

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    Let's back up the truck a few feet here. You can start the car and it runs for a few seconds and then shuts off. This tells us that the ignition system should not be the problem, or timing, and we should focus our attention on the fuel system. It's not entirely clear, I think the problem is with a '97 328, M52. The Ignition Switch has a contact that is hot in Start and Run. Let's explore the idea that it is hot in Start only, and the switch is broken in Run. This will give you everything you need to start the engine, but nothing for it to run. The ignition Switch, Pin 1 should be hot in Start and Run, but what if it's only hot in Start, but goes cold in Run. If this was the case, the engine could start but as soon as the key returns to Position II (RUN), the signal that turns the ECU on will go away, taking power from the coils and the injectors.

    The test, if I can read the schematic, is to place a meter lead into Pin 1 of the Ignition Switch, or Pin 49 of the ECU and turn the key to RUN. There should be 12v. If there is not, then the switch is bad. If you turn the key to START and there is 12v, then this is required to make the engine start, but if after start, the pin goes cold (no voltage) then the ignition switch is bad.

    The '97 model year ONLY has what they call an Unloader Relay. I'm not sure what the relay does, but the same GRN wire that goes from the ignition switch to the ECU, Pin 49 (GRN) goes to the Unloader Relay, Pin 8 (Terminal 86) to power the relay, then 12v passes through the relay contacts to another GRN wire in Pin 2 (Terminal 87) of the relay and goes back to the ignition coils. You can check that there is 12v at pins 8 and 2 (Terminals 86 & 87) of the relay when the key is on RUN. The Unloader Relay gets power directly from the B Post (jumper terminal in the engine bay for connecting jumper cables). The GRN wire at the relay powers the relay, there is a BRN (ground) wire to complete the coil circuit to the relay, a RED wire to give power to the ignition coils when the relay is energized, and another GRN wire that goes back to the ignition coils. The coils are powered all of the time, then each ignition coil gets a trigger from the ECU. The ignition coils have 3 wires, GRN for power, BRN for ground, and the 3rd wire is the trigger from the ECU that physically tells the coil to fire. The trigger wires are different colors for each of the ignition coils. Each trigger is a BLK wire with a unique stripe.

    The BRN wire that goes to each of the ignition coils has a 240 ohm resistor that acts as a load so the circuit does not make electrical noise. If the resistor is open, the ignition coils will not work. My thinking is that if this was the case, the car would not even start.

    As I am understanding your symptom set, the car starts and runs for a matter of seconds, then dies. This would mean that the power to the system has to be removed. If you had trouble with the load resistor or the Unloader Relay, I would expect that the car would not even start. Personally, I think your next diagnostic check is to be sure that the GRN wire that goes to Terminal 15 (Pin 1) of the Ignition Switch connector is in fact hot in START and RUN. I'm stuck on the idea that the ignition switch itself is having an internal failure. I think, but am not certain, that Terminal 15 is a designation of a contact internally within the Ignition Switch, whereas Pin 1 is the electrical connector where the Ignition Switch connects to the vehicle wiring harness. Clearly there is power on the GRN wire enough to start the car, but I think that this power goes away unless the key is physically set to START.

    I began my thesis by saying that the ignition system works, so the fuel must be the problem. Then I opened my Bentley to see what the Engine Management schematics look like. This study leads me to think that you need to check the GRN wire. You could put your meter lead into Pin 2 (GRN) of any of the ignition coils to see if there is 12v in RUN and START. (We know there is power during START, we want to be sure it is retained in RUN.) If the 12v is there in START, but goes away in RUN, then you have trouble with the ignition switch, or unloader relay. The ballast resistor should be the lowest resistance in the circuit, so you should see 240 ohms from any BRN wire on the Ignition Coils to ground. If you do not see 240 ohms, then unplug each of the ignition coils so there is no short, then check again. If you have zero ohms with the coils connected, but 240 with them unplugged, then you have a shorted ignition coil, but this condition does not explain how the engine car start and run for a few seconds then shut off.

    Check that the ignition switch actually works because all that you have said indicates it should be the source or your sleepless nights.
    Last edited by JDStrickland; 03-20-2017 at 05:21 PM.

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