Bent sub frame or trailing arms.

[msiert]

Just replaced the tie rods and when the mechanic was doing alinement he caught the right rear wheel had more negative camber and toe out on the the left wheel. Plus the space in front of the right rear tire you could fit 3 fingers and the left rear wheel you could fit 4 fingers.........something is bent. He has a small shop so he does not have an alinement rack.

I plan on jacking it up to see if I can see if I can see any impact to the subframe or left trading arm tomorrow but is an alinement shop my next logical step? I'm thinking of starting the search for a new rear subframe with trailing arms and do a complete switch out along with new trailing arm bushings and subframe mounts.

There is a E21 subframe on eBay for $299 is this a good price? I will report back after the inspection.

[tlapham]

Are you having abnormal tire wear on the rear? Don't buy anything until you are sure something is bent. I have a hard time believing the rear subframe would get bent without damage on the entire car.

[msiert]

There is no noticeable uneven tire wear. The right rear wheel has been like this since I bought the car 21,000 miles ago in 2012. but I run dedicated snow tires from Nov - April and the tires I looked at for uneven wear where my spring, summer and fall tires.

Short answer, no noticeable odd wear pattern in approx. 15,000 miles.

The mechanic said the wheel looks like it is turn out slightly and has 2 degree more negitive camber then the other side. You think that would cause an uneven wear on that tire.

[shogun]

We found the same on 3 E32 Alpina 750iL with wider wheels + tires, but with very heavy wear on one side of the rear wheel, replaced the subframes. Last one was
Rear left toe was -2.1mm(+1.7mm)
Rear right toe was +0.3mm(+1.7mm)
Rear total toe was -1.8mm(+3.5mm)

E30 same problems, E30 Rear Subframe Camber & Toe Correction Kits http://www.e30tech.com/
http://www.slidewaysonline.com/images/Dex405/1.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/nsoi/s14/ie04.jpg

here measurement from a Japanese shop, E30 M3 http://www.bmw-lsd-service.jp/semtore.html

Have not read about it for E21, but one never knows...
Here is a adjustable subframe https://store.garagistic.com/bmw-per...-rear-subframe

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...gineering-Kits

[mxl556]

How is the front's alignment? If something is off in the front, rear camber and height may be affected...
Also, I'd check rear subframe mounts and trailing arm bushings (unlikely). Worn rear subframe mounts would allow the whole rear suspension to shift around.

If all bushings are fine, and the front is not messed, I'd suspect bent trailing arm.

Max

[ascot]

Take measurements with a simple tool like a tape measure on each side of the car with corresponding points. See how many are the same. Check ride height for a sacked out spring on
the side that has more negative camber. I have good used trailing arms as well as a subframe and new oem rear springs available. For much cheaper than a $300 subframe.
shermanmartinez at Hotmail dot com

[Thecatmilton]

I also have some extra trailing arms if you want them. I removed them when I converted to disk brakes.

[msiert]

Got got it checked out today, below are some pictures. I believe the right side subframe where it attaches to the mount is bent up? The left side subframe mount is posted side ways but it is straight. Think I will want the trailer arms and get them and the subframe powder coated together and do new subframe mounts and bushings for the trailer arms. The existing trailing arm bushings are toast.

Pictures:
right rear
left rear
left subframe mount
right subframe mount
rear shot

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

[msiert]

Going thru the photos again I found another angle of the right subframe that looks like the top of the bracket that connects to the mount seam is busted? I didn't catch that until right now. I'll have to take another look tomorrow.

image.jpg

edit
optical alusion, the seam on top is not busted.

[mxl556]

Paint looks very fresh... Was there some body work done to it? I see the unusual tire wear on the outside of the driver's side tire...

Sounds like a bent trailing arm to me. Hopefully as its easy to fix.

Measuring the body is what I'd do first. There is always a body shop with the frame machine too.
Do you have a complete alignment printout with front and rear measurements?

Something else to try to eliminate or confirm bad bushings:

Do the same measurements twice, first time after you drive forward and stop (do not use handbrake) and second time after you back up and stop (no handbrake).

Maybe swap the subframe mounts(bushings) before you disassemble and replace the rear suspension, its very easy to do and should eliminate the possibility that the subframe shifts fore and aft.

Good luck,
Max

[msiert]

Paint looks very fresh... Was there some body work done to it? I see the unusual tire wear on the outside of the driver's side tire...

Sounds like a bent trailing arm to me. Hopefully as its easy to fix.

Measuring the body is what I'd do first. There is always a body shop with the frame machine too.
Do you have a complete alignment printout with front and rear measurements?

Something else to try to eliminate or confirm bad bushings:

Do the same measurements twice, first time after you drive forward and stop (do not use handbrake) and second time after you back up and stop (no handbrake).

Maybe swap the subframe mounts(bushings) before you disassemble and replace the rear suspension, its very easy to do and should eliminate the possibility that the subframe shifts fore and aft.

Good luck,
Max

Good eye Max, I didn't look at my winter tires for a wear pattern but after a close up look at the pictures it see the mising groves in like every other tread block and i see on the passages side too (sun light side was the driver's side ).....weird, not sure what that points too?

There has been new paint put on here and there but I would guess that 70% of the car still has its original single stage paint, both rear quarters and paint in the wheel wells are original paint to the best of my knowledge. At least I know that if you wax it with too course of a wax pad you get a bunch of red paint on it, so at least it's old single stage paint.

The mechanic said he found the right rear is toed out about two degrees when he was doing the alinement after the tie rod change. He did the ailnement with strings. I most likely need to go to an alinement shop first to see what I actually have going on. Might even have to go to a shop with a frame rack to straighten the body frame.

I have already have line up a used subframe and trailing arms from a form member with the plan to get it all power coated and install new rubber bushings for the trailing arms and install the poly subframe mounts that everyone seems to like. The differential got switch out to a limited slip a couple years ago so that bushing should still be good. Then do the full switch out. But I could just swap in the new subframe mounts for now to see it corrects it like you said........good idea.

Thanks for commenting Max!

[Sleepyhead97]

LOL you want to straighten the frame? Be looking at 3g's easy. Take it to a shop that has modern equipment, no offense to the good ol boys.

**
I dont want to worry you too much, but the RR and LR and .5" difference from fender well. I had a old school F body (85 Iroc Z) that was an inch or so difference in the front and it DROVE ME CRAZY. I could take a hell of a right corner, but turning left was HELL. With the new paint, DEF looks like it was wrecked at somepoint. Highly recommend taking to a shop to see if it is even worth spending the money to fix.

[mxl556]

Murray, tire wear like this is a toe in (if outside of the tire) or toe out (if inside).

Looks like there was some recent body work... I am sorry...

I'd take it to the alignment shop first and get a printout for all 4 wheels. Depending on what you'd find you could take it to the frame shop and have them measure up the body. If there is a structural damage then the new subframe may not even fit. I would make sure to know what is damaged before throwing money at the suspension components.

I would avoid using poly bushings on a street driven car. New BMW parts make a huge difference and high quality rubber bushings (factory parts not cheap "OEM" garbage) will make a huge difference.

Good luck,
Max

[msiert]

I made an appointment at a frame and alinement shop for this Monday to see what I got. If it doesn't snow I'll post the read out Monday.

I betting on a bent subframe or right trailing arm. The only body work that I can see was a poor Blondo job on the left front fender, a hood repaint and a trunk lid repaint, those areas are just a touch different shade and was done with a base and clear coat. The rest of the car is single stage Hanna and the panels look perfect to me, I let the experts voice they're opinion on the door gaps and such in the video below. There is no overspray on any suspension components or undercarriage either. If it was repainted it has to be when they where still using single stage paint because that is what is on 3/4 of the car.

But do I suspect there was damage done to either the right trailer arm or subframe which throw the fender to wheel gap off? Whether it damage the undercarriage pulling the subframe out whack will be determined.

I like the idea of trying the poly subframe mounts first to get a better idea if a subframe replacement will work before powder coating a replacement subframe, trailing arms and installing new trailing arm bushings.

I put this walk around video together the summer of 2015. I'm always amazed how people can pick things out that I can't see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwnwMA4iUrA&sns=em

[mxl556]

Very nice E21. I'd say that regardless of the damage it is worth fixing. Or leave it the way it is... After looking at the video I suspect that it was repainted. Also, I am not sure what that grey primer/sealer is doing in the trunk ( around shock towers), I do not think it should be there.

Trailing arms are very easy to bend and hopefully this is what it is. It looks like a bent trailing arm to me.

Regardless, very nice E21!

Let us know what the body shop says.



Max

[msiert]

After looking at the video again with a critical I on overspray, Your right it's been painted....an old re-spray IMO with newer paint here and there?

The gray primer sealer is a seam sealer caulk, it was done after a welding repair to the shock tower, 2 years into my ownership a horizontal crack appeared right at the weld point between the wheel well and the shock tower. I took it to a wielding shop and had them repair it. I can upload pictures of the crack if your interested, the crack was rusty. It's been 2 years and 10,000 miles later and holding up well.

It's my guess that the shock tower got damage when the undercarriage impact happen that cause my right wheel to be screwed up?

The history of the car:
It was bought new at Saddleback Valley Imports in Mission Viejo, California at suggested retail price of $16,435.20. It lived in Fullerton CA. for a 100,000 miles at that point the owner sold the car to his sister in Hasting NE. in 1997. Before he sold it he serviced the car which included a four wheel alinement which was good.

I bought the car in 2012 with 115,000 miles on it. It came with it's service records from 1983 to 2012. Which now that I'm typing this I'm thinking I need to look through those records again to see find anything on the right rear wheel.

[msiert]

Took the car to a frame alinement shop today that was recommended to me. I explained to Mark (the owner) the problem and he took the car in to looked it over and then came back to me to go over what he thought.

He said he did not think there was any frame/unibody damage and that the problem is either the right rear control arm or the subframe or both. He also said the the underbody was straight and solid. I told him about the subframe/bushing bolt being at a Cant and he said he didn't think that is the problem and even if it was it was an easy fixed. He said that could have happen with a lift arm pad being placed wrong.

He recommeded against putting on a used subframe or control arm on since they themselves might not be straight. He said to check out the avaibility of either one new and the cost. I went the the local BMW dealer parts counter and ordered a new subframe and right control arm. I also order new bushings for the left control arm and a hub bearing kit for the new arm. The control arm and subframe are coming from Germany and should be here in 2-3 weeks. I called the frame shop and told Mark I'll have the new parts in a couple weeks and to please scheduled me in to have them installed along with the new subframe bushings and control arm bushings.

I'm relieved that he thought there was no damage to the unibody.

[tlapham]

Well that's a shame, I promise you the parts I sent you are straight. Yours is obviously bent. What did the new parts set you back?

[msiert]

I have no regrets buying your old subframe and control arms.

May still be using your stuff. The new control arm and subframe could be used just to check to see if my existing subframe frame or my right control is bent or both, same with your old subframe and control arms, just to make sure they are straight. I might be able to return the new stuff with a restocking fee but not planning to at this time.

The frame and alinement shop I'm using recommended to get a new subframe and right control arm because it would be a shame to install everything and find we still have a problem. He made a good point when he said right now we don't even know if both of my control arms are bent and it's difficult to even tell if it's straight by just looking at them without have a new one to compare them too. Having your old subframe and control arms give us the chance to compare your parts to mine and to the new. Plus having the hubs gives me the opportunity to use them in the new arm and have it done before it goes into the frame alinement shop that will be doing the replacement along with the alinement.

I'm leaning to using the new sub frame and control arm but the new arm does not come with the side shaft installed so I have been looking for someone to swap your old control arm side shaft, spacer sleeve and install new bearings and the shim into the new arm. The only thing that might be a problem is if the shim is not the correct size for the new control arm. In that case I will have a couple week delay in getting the BMW into the frame shop till the new shim comes in from Germany and installed.

No regrates and thank you for selling them to me for a song.

The new control arm comes with the arm to subframe bushings installed and was $330, the subframe was $445, the right side bearing kit was $139. I also bough new bushings for the left side control arm to subframe but I don't remember what BMW charge was on that. I also got the new poly subframe to chassis bushings.

Should be a very noticeable difference in the ride with all new rear end bushings and whatever is bent replaced.

[msiert]

Update:

I ended up not going to the frame shop, instead I went to a shop that I have used in the past, I felt he was the best shop for the side shaft and bearings switch out I had to do between the used arm to the new arm and he seemed interested in seeing what was going on, so I turned the Bimmer over to him last Thursday.

Visited the shop today and they had the subframe dropped and were mounting the sway bar to the new subframe. The old
subframe was bent. It was bent backwards on the right side about 6" in from where the subframe mount is located. They could not see if my right trailing arm was bent too but I'm installing the new arm anyway.

image.jpg

[msiert]

The owner of the shop said he couldn't believe how clean the car was.

image.jpg

[mxl556]

Good to know the subframe was the problem and not the body of the car!

Max

[msiert]

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

Good to know the subframe was the problem and not the body of the car!

Max

Thanks Max,

I should get the car back tomorrow, the shop got the subframe, right trailer arm and the new bushings done last week but found that the left front shock insert was leaking so had a delay in waiting for new shock inserts to come in. I'm not crazy about the KYB shocks that they got but should be fine. Found it a little disappointing that one of the new shock inserts (Blistein touring) I installed less then 20,000 miles went bad.

[epmedia]

Very clean under there!

Glad the issue was found. Years ago my front subframe got whacked by a raised manhole cover. That was a scary experience.

[msiert]

image.jpg

image.jpg

Thank you, the underbody is solid and straight.

I drove the little beauty for 5 years knowing something was off on that wheel but after the tie rod replacement and failed alinement last month it move to the top of the list to fix. I can't wait to drive it again to see how it drives with the new subframe, trailing arm and new bushings.