NASA, SCCA, BMWCCACR E46 and E36 spec classes

[aeronaut]

I've been researching the various E36 and E46 spec classes, and have gotten a little lost.
A few questions:
A SpecE46 car and rules are exactly the same for BMWCR and NASA, correct?
Do the NASA Spec3, BMW SpecE36, (and any SCCA class) have 'competitive' overlap? That is, if I build an E36 to one class's rules, could/would it be legal and competitive in any other organization's class?

No doubt, this has been discusses and explained before, but I couldn't find much on it.

FYI, I'm in the mid-atlantic area, and would also appreciate any strong recommendations on SpecE46 vs SpecE36 vs etc, re grid size, schedules, etc.

Bottom line, I had pretty much settled on building a SpecE46 car, but have an opportunity to get a basically free E36 to start a build...so am considering that.

Thanks!

[Pat533i]

I have never seen very many spec3 or spec e36 at any events. I think there was 3 spec3 cars at Watkins Glen for nationals last year. Spec e46 is gaining traction, but it's still hard to say if there will be a "field" at any given event. Mid Atlantic may be better than Ne though.

Gts2 would be a hood home for the e36 if you take it.

[aeronaut]

I've been browsing race results across the different organizing bodies in the NE region, and was surprised to see some race results without any S3, SpecE36, or SpecE46 cars. Most show a few.

Does GTS2 have cross-organization classing?

Maybe a Miata IS the way to go.

[BlackHawkRacing]

Spec e46 is growing rapidly. The FB group is quiet active but it seems to be a lot of guys from the southeast. (Although the tracker they have on the site shows a lot of cars in the NE/mid-Atlantic http://spece46.com/racers/). The racers also seem like really great guys to be around. The biggest issue with SpecE46 is the cost relative to a spec series, IMO. Spec series are supposed to keep costs in check and level the play field. At the ~30K it costs to build the car, combined with the lack of NE cars running, it just seems high enough to were I rather go play in GTS.

Spec3 on the other hand seems to have no one around. I was really interested in it when I first heard about it but I rarely see anyone listed on the results sheets.

[aeronaut]

Great info. The cost of SpecE46 does have me a little concerned. Is the running cost that much higher than the other Spec classes or GTS?

GTSx is NASA only?

[BlackHawkRacing]

Great info. The cost of SpecE46 does have me a little concerned. Is the running cost that much higher than the other Spec classes or GTS?

GTSx is NASA only?

I can't comment on actual repeated running costs but, from what I've gathered, I wouldn't expect a significant difference in race to race running costs. The one execption I can see is that in GTS you're free to spend a lot more on changeing your set up, hate your suspension? Change it. Don't have enough aero? Add more. Your freedom to change things and move classes, both short and long term, can add up. Again, this is hypothetical vs Spec46 where you can only run X Y and Z.

I'm still in process of nailing down the class I want to build towards but GTS 2 is becoming more and more of the goal. FWIW - If spec E30 was as popular up in NE as it is in the SE, I'd be jumping all over that.

[Pat533i]

If your carful when you build and read the rule books thoroughly, you can cross class gts2 with bmwcca Is, gts3 with Ip, and gts4 with cm.

To be competitive in gts2 you will probly need aero, but I don't think it's allowed for IS class. The closest scca class is probly Stu.

Buying a a allready built spec e46 is going to be a lot more cost effective than building your own. Having browsed through the spec e46 section on bimmerworld, the thousands add up really quick!

[BlackHawkRacing]

Buying a a allready built spec e46 is going to be a lot more cost effective than building your own. Having browsed through the spec e46 section on bimmerworld, the thousands add up really quick!

This is a great point I forgot to mention. There have been several well built cars for sale going for bargain prices this winter.

[aeronaut]

There's a estimated build sheet for SpecE46 somewhere on the internets...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...x3c/edit#gid=0

Pretty interesting. In summary, $10k for budget build, $20k for typical build, $27k for premium build. PLUS donor car and cage (and any labor). So...add $5-10k to each.
So assume typical build ready to race, and I'd guess $25-30k. If the spreadsheet is right.

[JulianK8Z]

Nasa Mid-Atlantic has a healthy Spec3 class.

[aeronaut]

Looking at NASA web page, in 2016, 2 races at Summit Point for example.

April Race:
# Spec 3 cars: ~3
# Spec E30 cars: ~2
# Spec E46 cars: ~7

July Race:
# Spec 3 cars: ~5
# Spec E30 cars: ~12
# Spec E46 cars: ~4

EDIT:
Took a quick look at a mid-season July race at Dominion
# Spec 3 cars: ~4
# Spec E30 cars: ~13
# Spec E46 cars: ~9

Looks like when the Spec E30 guys decide to show up, they're a force. Also seems SE46 is a bit stronger than S3. At least in these 3 events.

[19Spec3]

To answer your questions:

1) SpecE46 is the same in BMWCCA and NASA.
2) NASA Spec3 and BMWCCA SpecE36 are not the same and there's no reasonable way to build a car to run in both.
3) SpecE46 seems to cost substantially more than either of the E36 series. Built cars are going for $35k+ so I imagine that translates into big dollars to build it. No first hand experience with the E46 cars, though. By comparison, you can build a Spec3 for under $15,000 pretty easily.

If you're in Maryland, NASA Spec3 is good option for you. Of course, I'm biased as that's the class I'm building toward. There are pretty much always more than 5 cars on grid at NASA MidAtlantic events and I expect fields of 8-10 this season. The best way to get quick helpful answers is from the Facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/267757496658732/

And feel free to PM, email, etc. with any questions. Hope to see you this season!

[JulianK8Z]

Looking at NASA web page, in 2016, 2 races at Summit Point for example.

April Race:
# Spec 3 cars: ~3
# Spec E30 cars: ~2
# Spec E46 cars: ~7

July Race:
# Spec 3 cars: ~5
# Spec E30 cars: ~12
# Spec E46 cars: ~4

EDIT:
Took a quick look at a mid-season July race at Dominion
# Spec 3 cars: ~4
# Spec E30 cars: ~13
# Spec E46 cars: ~9

Looks like when the Spec E30 guys decide to show up, they're a force. Also seems SE46 is a bit stronger than S3. At least in these 3 events.

You have that pretty much right. SE30 is one of the largest classes nationwide, and there's a big presence in Mid-Atlantic. Take a look at the following spreadsheet to get an idea of who's racing what in Mid-Atlantic as of 2016:

http://www.nasaracing.net/wp-content...OINTS_2016.xls

Hyperfest at VIR was a well attended race as an example. We had 21 Spec E30, 15 Spec E46, and 7 Spec 3's.

I'm biased towards SE30 for a number of reasons, but you weren't asking about that. ( But I'll gladly tell you why it's the best race class there is. ) Spec E46 is a growing class that has taken off like gangbusters. I like to think of it as Spec Racing for folks who would otherwise be competing in GTS classes and have the disposable income to support it. It's amazing how fast it has grown in such a short time. If the E36 chassis appeals to you, the Mid-Atlantic is where it's at. I can vouch that all three groups are fantastic to race with and are great to hang around with in the paddock. Hard to go wrong with any of them. Pick a chassis that appeals to you and fits your budget, build/buy, and go race.

[aeronaut]

Thanks! That spreadsheet is helpful.

[hoki06]

It depends on what you're looking for with a race car and series. NASA MA has a strong Spec3 group that are great guys to hang around with, they always have quality racing, and the cars are cheap (in race car terms). There is a pretty solid group of 7-10 regular Spec3 racers and some of them didn't race much last year because of car issues or just normal life taking over for a bit. You won't get Spec E30 fields but I've never seen less than 3-4 at each event for the past several years.

Spec E46 is taking off but as already stated, the cost is substantial for a spec class. Hell I've seen GTS2 cars sell for less than every Spec E46 car I've seen listed. The good thing is the class has growth potential and seems to be fairly nationwide at this point. It's also very easy to race GTS2 with a Spec E46 car. Swap tires, add a wing/splitter, have your weight/hp ratio right and you're good to go.

I race GTS2 so I'm partial to it. We have a great group of guys that are fast and push each other every race. Regular fields are in the 5-8 range in MA and the NE region has similar fields I believe. I'm an engineer so I like the fact that I can do whatever I want with the car in terms of suspension, aero, tires, etc. Yes GTS can be a money game but from my experience, that's not really the case for GTS2. Take a stock E36 M3 and add safety equipment, basic track level coilovers, wing, plywood splitter, and Hoosiers and you'll be right in the mix.

In the end... it comes down to your budget and what you feel like doing. Do you like to tinker with aero, tire size, and light/lower hp vs heavier/higher hp? Then a spec class isn't the best. Want to build a car and then just race with regular maintenance? Go for a spec class that fits your budget.

[aeronaut]

Thanks for the great insight folks. And thanks for the answers OCRent.

I'm wondering why a SpecE46 is consistently significantly more than the others, and I see a few big items; $3k for an LSD diff, $600 for ECU, $1200 for exhaust, $3k for MCS C/Os, etc.
Adds up quick.

[jtower]

spec e46 wasn't designed to be cheap, it was designed to be awesome

a prevailing attitude in many spec classes is, "everyone runs the same parts, so why not go cheap?" we wanted se46 cars to be outstanding cars in their own right, not just in a their own fields. we very carefully selected components that work well together and results in a fast, balanced, durable, adjustable, easy to live with, fun to drive, cheap to run platform. big 255 tires on a lightweight car wear well, and many people report getting an entire season out of a set of pfc08 pads. yes the exhaust is $1200 but it's 100% stainless, multi piece, lightweight, sounds great, and is made in a factory not a garage. true a diff isn't cheap but a good one from DOL will last for many trouble free years and be amazing on track. ditto the mcs shocks which everyone loves and i have yet to hear a negative word about them. does it cost more than other spec series? yes but not by as much as you might think if you're comparing apples to apples, new build to new build.

and they are properly quick. the vir lap record is in the 2:08 range, and my car has run a 2:05 on takeoff continentals (hoosiers). not bad for 220whp and no aero. you won't be giving point-bys all day in your local hpde group, and they make great street cars if you're doing a slow build.

as for price, my car is for sale at 25k. a guest driver money shifted it and popped the motor but $1000-1500 will get you a good used replacement. spend a weekend swapping it and you're racing a fully sorted, race winning car for less than $28k.

[aeronaut]

Thanks. One of the reasons I find specE46 interesting is exactly your points. Quick car, quality components. They look to be 3-5 secs quicker than spec3, which certainly makes it a quick HPDE car. (I won't immediately stop instructing at HPDEs if I take up racing). That, and both NASA and BMW support the class.

Great info in this thread, although I can't say it's made my decision any easier.

[VaTechE36]

That's a pretty big gap from spec3 to specE46.

I'm running spec3 (or at least have a car built for that but sits in the garage mostly) and if I had to do it over again, I think I'd go SpecE46. Great chassis, great parts, and a lot of national growth.

Spec3 is a great class...great people, fun cars, easy to work on and maintain, very simple modifications, but that's where I waver a bit. It's a spec class so everyone has the same stuff, but sometimes the stuff that's on the car is kind of weak from a race car standpoint. The objective of the class is to be cheap and offer closer racing, which it does very well, but it just doesn't get the job done in the flashy part, which is why I think the numbers have stayed pretty much the same over the years it's been around.

[joenationwide]

If you ask me, nothing beats GTS2 with NASA.
This class is so much fun, with just the right amount of power and grip, large fields, and reasonable costs.

We have the fastest lap times of all the classes you listed - SpecE46, Spec3, SpecE30.
I don't think anything comes close with a power to weight of 14.5lbs:1hp.
Coming from the Ricky Bobby school of driving - I wanna go fast!

Wanna hit 125mph in the uphill esses at VIR? Done!
Wanna go flat in T4 at Summit Point over 100mph? You can!

We had an average of 7-10 cars per race in 2016, and in 2017 we expect an average of 9-12 cars.
The GTS2 field is strong, and growing larger.
We've got almost 10 E36M3s, 2 Boxters, 1 944, and an Audi A4 that run locally.

A GTS2 build is simply an E36M3 with suspension, front splitter, rear wing, cage & safety, gutted interior, and R comps.
Theoretically you can spend tons of money, but this is not required to win. You could build a competitive car for $15-20k.
The great thing is, you can build it however you want. Don't want to pull lots of weight out, run a bigger restrictor plate.
You don't even need a custom tune. Power is restricted by one of 4-5 restrictor plates from Bimmerworld.

To me its a no-brainer, GTS2 cars are the fastest and most fun for the money.

[VaTechE36]

I can go flat out in T4 at Summit =) It's just not 100mph haha.

[BehindTheCones]

what size wheels and tires are those in your sig picture? any spacers?

that fitment looks perfect.

If you ask me, nothing beats GTS2 with NASA.
This class is so much fun, with just the right amount of power and grip, large fields, and reasonable costs.

We have the fastest lap times of all the classes you listed - SpecE46, Spec3, SpecE30.
I don't think anything comes close with a power to weight of 14.5lbs:1hp.
Coming from the Ricky Bobby school of driving - I wanna go fast!

Wanna hit 125mph in the uphill esses at VIR? Done!
Wanna go flat in T4 at Summit Point over 100mph? You can!

We had an average of 7-10 cars per race in 2016, and in 2017 we expect an average of 9-12 cars.
The GTS2 field is strong, and growing larger.
We've got almost 10 E36M3s, 2 Boxters, 1 944, and an Audi A4 that run locally.

A GTS2 build is simply an E36M3 with suspension, front splitter, rear wing, cage & safety, gutted interior, and R comps.
Theoretically you can spend tons of money, but this is not required to win. You could build a competitive car for $15-20k.
The great thing is, you can build it however you want. Don't want to pull lots of weight out, run a bigger restrictor plate.
You don't even need a custom tune. Power is restricted by one of 4-5 restrictor plates from Bimmerworld.

To me its a no-brainer, GTS2 cars are the fastest and most fun for the money.