Member
You tune p and i to instability until you see a repetitive oscillation in duty preferably or pressure in a pinch. Small corrections happening often is the end target. But you have to creep up on instabiliity
there are formulas for this but makin numbers get bigger and smaller is more fun.
Cantry Member
Avee just dropped off his boost controller, I'll try to get it installed soon so we will know if it is a controller issue.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Cantry Member
Welp, it's not a failed boost controller, Avee's AMS-500 does the same thing. Thanks Avee!!
I have an eBoost2 on its way but probably won't see it for a week. Hopefully the eBoost2 will be able to control the leaking Turbosmart IWG-75 wastegate or at least one would think it should. The Turbosmart tech verified that the IWG-75 has no seal at the shaft and will leak between the bushing and shaft. One of the reasons I didn't want an eBoost2 in the first place is because of the odd size that the gauge is. All of my other gauges are 52 mm. I might just hide its ugly ass in the glove box and keep the boost gauge I have already.
Hopefully by winter I have this issue resolved.
Last edited by chikinhed; 07-26-2017 at 03:40 AM.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Member
May I ask what is your reasoning that the eboost will regulate better? I was just about to order a controller and have similar issues is the reason I am asking. Also did you try the actuator that came with the EFR? I never tried mine because I read somewhere on the forum that you ditch them right away in favor of the turbosmart one so I believed what I read. I was thinking about trying a little experiment also with supplying the wastegate(s) with higher pressure compressed air from a portable tank through the control valve instead of from the compressor housing. My thinking is that maybe since these turbos hit so quick that you need MORE pressure than the spike to counter act it. So if you have an air tank with 40-50 PSI on tap to actuate the wastegate it would respond faster. Of course it would be quite a rig-job if this actually worked and we would need an airtank and compressor under the hood! Or maybe some sort of pneumatic accumulator to store the boost? I am a week or so away from testing this theory because I am still deciding which boost controller to buy.
Last edited by bimmerbumm193; 07-26-2017 at 08:07 AM.
96 328i ITR Racecar
95 M3 blk/blk - hillclimb project - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1798796 - Retired to street duty after two awesome seasons!
2002 325XiT - daily
Cantry Member
The eBoost2 has more adjustability than the AMS-500. The AMS-500 is an awesome EBC and does a great job of holding the boost exactly where you want it but only if you have no leaks in the line that goes to the top port of a EWG. The AMS-500 will allow for an external pressure source but may react the same because of the leak and I don't want to be filling air tanks for boost control.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
LICENSE SUSPENDED
He makes a good point. Can you run the 20# BW gate ?
1996 332IS
Built 3.2
CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
Technique Tuning 80# tune.
1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM
Cantry Member
The reason for the TS IWG-75 is to hold the gate closed until target pressure is met to get faster spool. The BW only has one port so you won't have the same control.
I suppose I could buy the BW high boost actuator and use the supplied BW boost solenoid with the eBoost2 and see how that works.
I hope everyone, including CES and Steed, appreciate all the R&D I'm doing for them.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Member
I certainly do! I have the same setup but with the 8374. I too bought the turbosmart gates because they were supposed to be the best for this setup.
Is the eBoost2 less sensitive to leaks? (vs AMS)
Last edited by s13flyboy; 07-26-2017 at 02:45 PM.
Member
Ive been saying it for a long time now, the EFR internal gate doesn't work, I don't care if you put a goddamn flux capacitor as an acuator.
328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
9.20 at 150 on 22psi
Ring Master
Internal gate doesnt work for flow or because it cant open enough?
Switch to a servo?
Garrett even makes an electronic wastegate servo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1989 535i - sold
1999 M3 Tiag/Dove - sold
1998 M3 Turbo Arctic/black - current
2004 Built motor TiAg/Black - Sold
2008 E61 19T Turbo-Wagon - current
2011 E82 135i - S85 Swap - current
1998 M3 Cosmos S54 swapped Sedan - current
1998 Turbo: PTE6870 | 1.15 ar | Hp Cover, Custom Divided T4 bottom-mount, 3.5" SS exhaust, Dual Turbosmart Compgates, Turbosmart Raceport BOV, 3.5" Treadstone Intercooler, 3.5" Vibrant resonator and muffler, Arp 2k Headstuds | Arp 2k Main studs | 87mm Je pistons | Eagle rods | 9.2:1 static compression, Ces 87mm cutring, Custom solid rear subframe bushings, Akg 85d diff bushings, 4 clutch 3.15 diff, , Poly engine mounts, UUC trans mounts W/ enforcers, 22RPD OBD2 Stock ECU id1700 E85 tune, 22RPD Big power Transmission swap w/ GS6-53
u owe my mule an apology
I would put an ungated housing on it and open up the manifold for a 60 mm gate
86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30
Cantry Member
The IWG is the only WG that is actually doing anything on the Steed/EFR set up for controlling boost below >26+ psi. Everyone else that isn't using the IWG is on e85 or race gas and running much higher boost. I'm trying to make it streetable. I haven't seen anyone else run this combo with the IWG other than Phil and he is at 20 psi, I want more than that.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Cantry Member
I'm sure the Steed v. 2.1 will have a 60 mm WG and will have a better flow path to it. I'm not about to start cutting up the manifold.Originally Posted by someguy2800
The 90° WG exit is less of a problem for turbos with small turbines and higher exhaust manifold back pressure. When you have a bigger turbo with less back pressure the exhaust gasses are less likely to want to make the sharp corner out the WG exit.
The IWG is behaving much differently than the EWG. I'll have some better conclusions once I try to control it with the eBoost2. The AMS-500 oscillates 5-6 psi at a frequency of about 1 Hz with the current leak at the IWG-75 when tested using a regulated air supply. While driving, it over boosts then drops down to gate pressure, about a 5-6 psi difference. I would almost bet that if I was on a load Dyno that I'd see that same pressure oscillation that I saw during testing. Hopefully the eBoost2 logarithms are totally different than the AMS-500 and will be useable/tuneable to work with leaky parts.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Luchador
So are you doing this to get rid of the initial spike in boost, or can it not hold the target pressure long term? It seems almost all setups, especially IWG setups spike quite a few psi and then settle.
on a boost controller you should be able to set the boost target by rpm at least so you could use a lower target initially so the gate cracks a little earlier.
Cantry Member
The AMS-500 is set by adjusting pots in the unit, first pot is 10s, second pot is 1s. To select boost you adjust the pots to the boost setting above WG spring pressure ie. WG spring is 14 psi, I want 25 psi so I set the pots to 11. I have mine set at 9 (23 psi) for low boost and 14 (28 psi) for high boost right now. On low it peaks around 23 then drops off to IWG spring pressure, on high it peaks at 26 psi and falls off to IWG spring pressure.
So I guess it's going to its set pressure but falling off right after.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Member
This is just motion control methodology-its just information so if something unexpected happens you have a data point to think about.
air is painful so it has any control methodologies.
some motion control models bias one side of the cylinder or wg to minimize friction or compensate for leaks. Static friction is what it takes to crack the valve. If the valve sits for awhile the static friction will be higher for a short amount of time (like when initially tuning the wastegate). Dynamic friction is usually pretty constant unless their is foulig or something variable that temperature acts on.
who cares? Well if you want stability then you need to tune it in the closest environment you can to how you are going to drive it or you end up tuning instability in.
so the another method to minimizing motion control variables in an air system is to keep it in motion. For example a small wg oscillation will eliminate static friction so the math gets simpler.
Cantry Member
The wait for the eBoost2 is painful. Meanwhile I've done more investigating into my wheel hop issue. I mounted the Gopro under the back of the car and did some rapid clutch releases and some on/off the throttle. The rear end and subframe are pivoting or rotating. In one shot I can see the forward subframe studs move up with the front of the subframe. That indicates that the U-channel that the studs mount in are flexing or the whole floor it is mounted to is flexing. Mason Engineering makes a rear subframe support assembly but it only connects to the two rear subframe studs. I have a couple of ideas of what I can do to stiffen it up but I think its really odd others on here aren't having similar issues. The stiffening of the rear chassis will have to be next winters project.
I looked under the back seat and all the spot welds and rosette welds are still all in tact. I'll shoot more video tomorrow to see if I can pin point the issue.
Last edited by chikinhed; 07-30-2017 at 04:36 AM.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Member
That makes sense especially considering what you found when ur car was apart.
328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
9.20 at 150 on 22psi
u owe my mule an apology
I bet people would be shocked to find out how much all the suspension attachment points move and flex in relation to the structure of the car. It would be really neat if a guy could set up a dial indicator attached to the body structure and measure how much the suspension attachment points move.
86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30
Member
I remember a video Boris posted of a dyno pull he did. I don't know if he had solid mounts but they were at least solid poly and it looked like his tires were going to kiss the front of the wheel well the suspension was pulling forward so far
Sleeps with his eyes open
The machines are really cool actually. One of the bigger companies for testing of the sort is up in your neck of the woods too.
https://www.mts.com/cs/groups/public...dev_002222.pdf
It's one of those things people don't realize is designed into cars.
Chikinhead, I've been wanting to box in the rear subframe mounting points with an X connecting the 4 points. Then using 2 tubes off each rear shock shower connected to the forward and rear point of the respective side. Then underneath go from the lower hoop of the subframe forward but the fuel tank is kind of in the way. I just have never gotten around to it.
Oddly enough my car never really hopped before, I installed a 210 diff and didn't get the alignment quite right and it would hop at the top of first again. Put the car back on the alignment rack and found the trailing arms had shifted to be toed out again. With that adjusted to slightly toed in it's back to slight wheelspin no hop.
u owe my mule an apology
I remember seeing Jfdmas dyno back in the day and the rear tires moved forward in relation to the wheel wells like 3/4"
- - - Updated - - -
MTS is a half mile up the street from the company I work for. I have made a bunch of parts for them.
86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30
Cantry Member
I was actually expecting the RTAB pocket area to be doing all the flexing but there wasn't any flex from the position I had the camera in. I do not need a dial indicator for measuring if the subframe is moving up and down when I'm doing mini clutch dumps with the NT-01s. I'd say it's at least a 1/4" or more. I'm hearing a clunk/bang occasionally which is probably the input flange or DDS rear adaptor disc hitting the underside of the floor.
Under static loading, the rear spring is the fulcrum point causing a downward force on the rear subframe in addition to the weight of the heavier 210 diff. I also have a bunch of heavy car audio in the trunk that adds to the issue. At a launch the torque will cause the front of the subframe to want to rotate upward, opposite of the static load and the RH side will want to twist downward from the torque of the driveshaft on the diff. It was mostly the RH side spot welds that had popped at the forward subframe attach box section, which make sense.
It would be nice to be able to strengthen the rear subframe attach points without losing the functionality of the fold down rear seats from a bunch of diagonal tubes or at least have them removeable.
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
Sleeps with his eyes open
The big problem I noticed is the location of the forward subframe points is under the rear seat. I didn't really want to cut it all up and lose the rear seat.
My latest kick is still trying to make a rear subframe connector similar to the x brace. Unfortunately the rear subframe is pretty narrow and like you said, lots of the movement is torsional so it really does need to be supported at the top where the subframe mounts are.
- - - Updated - - -
Stratasys I think I remember you saying?
u owe my mule an apology
yeah
86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30
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