Vogtland Springs, what shocks are best?

[95525ibob]

Man so many different views on this. Bought the springs now I need shocks for all four corners

Got it down to Koni yellows or Blisten sports

Can somebody list the different part numbers for a 95 525i and pros and cons?

Any real life experience info to would be great.

[AHenry014]

I have had first hand experience with bilstein sports front and rear with h&r springs. I swapped to koni adjustable fronts due to the bilstein "crashing" issue. Take a look around, its a well known "issue" with them. They dont do well with the quick jolts from the road. The Konis were worlds better in my opinion. I know two different people that have/had vogtland springs and bilstein sports and both complain(ed) about the crashing of the bilsteins. I also felt the bilstein rear struts were valved a bit soft compared to the fronts. Never ran koni rears myself, but have heard good things.

[jawnswagg3r]

funny you say that^^ , i heard the same about the bilsteins... so i put the vogtlands on my trashed oem shocks when i got them. sure enough, super unresponsive front end and tons of rubbing up front with only a mildly aggressive wheel setup.... around 17x8 et4 and 235/40s i believe. front suspension otherwise was tight and rebuilt...

bought some adjustable konis for the front, and what a difference!!!

i picked up some billys for the rear, because i needed new shocks badly... but didnt wanna spring for konis yet because i plan on rebuilding the rear and going even lower in the back. gonna source shorter konis and mod the strut towers to retain travel.... but, even with a super loose rear end, the rear billy + vogtland combo was happy.


if you do go billys, make sure you get the 'Bilstein sport' model instead of the 'Bilstein HDs'. our stock cars/shocks have external bump stops (little piece of rubber around the shock shaft so it never gets fully compressed). Bilsteins have internal bump stops... HDs are optimized for stock height cars, and Sports are meant for lower cars. both models are valved the same, but, at vogtland height, you are very low on suspension travel, especially in the front. this blows out shocks much more quickly. front billies seem to be either valved poorly or simply not up for the workload of such a short travel. this is also why you'll be hard pressed to find good reviews on any cheaper e34 shock, especially on lowered applications.

in short, from what ive learned:
on vogtlands, bilstein Sports are sufficient for the rear, konis are almost necessary for the front.
stay away from mostly anything else, all the cheap shocks have proven time and time again to fail within months on low e34s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[E38740iMD]

I have bilsteins and vogtlands. on 16 its hard and livable, 17s i feel the members pain on the crashing, 18 mpars, holy hell it drives rough up front. but the rebound is prevents the alpina lip from smacking the ground so i think i will stay like this for a while

[95525ibob]

I have bilsteins and vogtlands. on 16 its hard and livable, 17s i feel the members pain on the crashing, 18 mpars, holy hell it drives rough up front. but the rebound is prevents the alpina lip from smacking the ground so i think i will stay like this for a while

I have 15's now with snows on now and 16's with ripken raptors ready for the summer.

My suspension is shot on all corners so she is going in the air for repair in May.

What part number Koni sport are we talking about? 95 525i

[BleedsBlue]

if you do go billys, make sure you get the 'Bilstein sport' model instead of the 'Bilstein HDs'. our stock cars/shocks have external bump stops (little piece of rubber around the shock shaft so it never gets fully compressed). Bilsteins have internal bump stops... HDs are optimized for stock height cars, and Sports are meant for lower cars. both models are valved the same, but, at vogtland height, you are very low on suspension travel, especially in the front. this blows out shocks much more quickly. front billies seem to be either valved poorly or simply not up for the workload of such a short travel.

Every time someone propagates this myth, I will step in (apologies and no disrespect meant) because it is simply untrue (though the bumpstop thing is a new take on the same myth). The HD have more travel, which is a good thing--the crashing comes from the shortened Sports not having enough travel, paired with the admittedly less than ideal valving. Stay away from Billy Sports at all costs. My previous M5 (SLS delete) has had H&R springs paired with HDs and it's a great combo, no better than Konis but worlds better than over-shortened Billy Sports.

I've had this reiterated to me by several shock engineers, but here is a well-known and well-put explanation for the purposes of this thread: http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Upgrade/Suspensions.htm

There is a long held myth about so called lowering shocks or shocks designed for lowering springs with reduced travel versus shocks designed for standard or taller springs. The best way to visualize it without physically looking at the shocks side by side is...the only tangible difference is the stroke is shorter in a shock designed expressly for a lowering spring...the throw is shorter. Full jounce position or fully compressed shock position is exactly the same...that is the critical factor for bottoming...wh ere the jounce bumper fully compresses onto the top of the strut collar nut threaded onto the strut housing...that shoulder position is the same for either shock and each shock will identically compress into its cartridge casing. With a standard Boge shock lets say..the throw of the rod internal to the shock is a bit longer..that's all...so the shock is cabable of "extending" farther...at full suspension rebound or when the suspension arms are fully down with a taller spring. With a shorter spring..you don't need a longer throw shock...however..this is the important part...Is putting a standard Boge with longer travel with a lowering spring bad? Absolutely not...you just end up not using the full travel capability of standard shock with a shorter lowering spring... that's all. All the speculation of a standard shock..say Boge..wearing out faster with a lowering spring...is a myth.

[95525ibob]

Thanks this is great info! Bought the springs so I just need the shocks now.
Rears will be Billy HD for sure.

Fronts I need the Koni yellow part number to see price and read up more. Is this the koni sports?

Maybe just put the billy HD's all around with the Vogtland springs. I feel the HD's will take the pounding and last longer......

[BleedsBlue]

Sorry for the minor de-rail; I would still advocate buying Konis if at all possible, for all four corners. I still like them better than Bilsteins in almost any application. The adjustable factor is a Koni advantage over Billy, and I think they are valved better as well for low speed.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...y-priced-each/

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...35i-530i-540i/

[AHenry014]

AFAIK, the billy HD is designed to be used at or near stock height. The sport is meant to be used for lowering springs. The HD's bumpstop is too tall and it will be used very often if paired with a vogtland spring. I have first hand experience with pairing vogtland springs with billy HD's. We knew the internal bumpstop needed to be shortened before installation, so we did just that. Not know the age of these used billys, we thought it just rode OK, maybe a bit soft. He is now shopping for konis.

konis on all four corners. The difference in price is 100% worth it.

[AHenry014]

Might just be my browser, but i cant comprehend any of that. My buddy tells me tirerack had a sale on them recently. Might want to check there. Otherwise just find the P/N on the koni website and go shopping.

[95525ibob]

Might just be my browser, but i cant comprehend any of that. My buddy tells me tirerack had a sale on them recently. Might want to check there. Otherwise just find the P/N on the koni website and go shopping.

Ya I'll try to delete that. Not sure why all the jumbo copied over....

WOW!! Just called a local shop with the part numbers. $700CDN front and $650 CDN rear.... Damm I hope a stripper comes with for a day or two.

Part #'s are 86411224 Sport and 82401076 Sport (rear) if anybody else is shopping

Life time warranty is one good thing.

- - - Updated - - -

KONI Sport Adjustable Shock - Front - E34 525i, 535i, 530i, 540i, M5
T#: 361961
Mfg#: 86411224Sport
More Info
To increase virtual gift card value, please update the dollar increment. Add another Virtual Gift Card to you cart if you wish to have 2 different values.

Auto Notify

ON SALE - Save 13%

$123.45 211.40 $
$422.80
Free Shipping
Free Shipping on orders $200 and up

Ground Shipping Only

• Status
• Description
• On Hand
• On Order
• Commited
• Available
• Required

Updating Item Quantity




Attention!

You entered quantity of 0 for this product. Remove this item from your cart?
YES NO



×
×
×


Bilstein Sport Rear Shock - E34 525i, 530i, 535i, 540i 8/1990-1995
T#: 2577
Mfg#: B46-1486
More Info
To increase virtual gift card value, please update the dollar increment. Add another Virtual Gift Card to you cart if you wish to have 2 different values.

Auto Notify

ON SALE - Save 13%

$123.45 104.95 $
$209.90

- - - Updated - - -

$632 USD with Blisten rears.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1ATZ3MAARQNEF

Scroll down and it says Quantity in box 2 !!!!! How I would like amazon to honor that!!!!!

[demetk]

Ya I'll try to delete that. Not sure why all the jumbo copied over....

WOW!! Just called a local shop with the part numbers. $700CDN front and $650 CDN rear.... Damm I hope a stripper comes with for a day or two.

Glad I went DIY coilovers so I could buy more reasonable KYB AGX shocks at $82 each.

[95525ibob]

Sorry for the minor de-rail; I would still advocate buying Konis if at all possible, for all four corners. I still like them better than Bilsteins in almost any application. The adjustable factor is a Koni advantage over Billy, and I think they are valved better as well for low speed.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...y-priced-each/

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...35i-530i-540i/

The first link is for earlier cars.....KONI 8741 1341SPORT is correct for 95

- - - Updated - - -

Glad I went DIY coilovers so I could buy more reasonable KYB AGX shocks at $82 each.

Cool post man and great work.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ustable-shocks

[BleedsBlue]

AFAIK, the billy HD is designed to be used at or near stock height. The sport is meant to be used for lowering springs. The HD's bumpstop is too tall and it will be used very often if paired with a vogtland spring. I have first hand experience with pairing vogtland springs with billy HD's. We knew the internal bumpstop needed to be shortened before installation, so we did just that. Not know the age of these used billys, we thought it just rode OK, maybe a bit soft. He is now shopping for konis.

konis on all four corners. The difference in price is 100% worth it.

I agree with you 100% on just going with Koni, so the following is moot (but still).

The HD and Sports have the same valving in the applications (per chassis) that I've seen tested, on actual shock dynos or whatever that machine is called. I think the shocks that were tested were for E36 and E30 respectively (HD and Sports). My point is that the only difference between Sport and HD may be a shorter rod and travel, thus why on the E36 (and seems like E34) chassis, Billy Sports with lowering springs have a bad name. I made no modification to the HDs combined with H&R springs on my M5 and found the ride quite enjoyable. We're getting into anecdotes now, and I apologize.

The first link is for earlier cars.....KONI 8741 1341SPORT is correct for 95

Well... I get the same results using several sites' online car configurator, so I'm not sure what to say. I trust those car configs on sites like Turner, typically.

[95525ibob]

Well I said $%&# it. Bought KYB from Rock Auto. $360 front and rear with 4 mounts.....

We will find out if this is true.....


There is a long held myth about so called lowering shocks or shocks designed for lowering springs with reduced travel versus shocks designed for standard or taller springs. The best way to visualize it without physically looking at the shocks side by side is...the only tangible difference is the stroke is shorter in a shock designed expressly for a lowering spring...the throw is shorter. Full jounce position or fully compressed shock position is exactly the same...that is the critical factor for bottoming...wh ere the jounce bumper fully compresses onto the top of the strut collar nut threaded onto the strut housing...that shoulder position is the same for either shock and each shock will identically compress into its cartridge casing. With a standard Boge shock lets say..the throw of the rod internal to the shock is a bit longer..that's all...so the shock is cabable of "extending" farther...at full suspension rebound or when the suspension arms are fully down with a taller spring. With a shorter spring..you don't need a longer throw shock...however..this is the important part...Is putting a standard Boge with longer travel with a lowering spring bad? Absolutely not...you just end up not using the full travel capability of standard shock with a shorter lowering spring... that's all. All the speculation of a standard shock..say Boge..wearing out faster with a lowering spring...is a myth.

[AHenry014]

I agree with that logic to an extent, but it only touches on the physical ability of standard shock being able to work with lowering springs, and nothing to do with the dampening/valving adjustment made when they are designed for lowering springs. Lowering springs tend to carry a higher spring rate and higher load at ride height compared to the factory spring. Shocks designed for lowering springs are valved differently than standard shocks to pair with these now stiffer springs. The valving of the standard shock will be be a tad too "soft" and likely wont be able to "keep up" with the now higher rate of the lowering spring. I imagine this will create a fairly bouncy ride. A bouncy ride equals a shock getting more of a workout than its stiffer valved counterpart, leading to the premature failure we often see claimed.

disclaimer: above is comparing a standard shock like a bilstein touring or KYB to a bilstein sport or equivalent. As bleedblue said, we believe the valving between the sport and the HD to be the same, which i can understand for an HD shock.

When it comes to shocks, you get what you pay for. Ask me how i know. I hope you it works out well for you and you didnt waste your money. There is weight to the saying "Spend the money and do it right the first time around". Keeps you from having to do the job twice and the headache involved in the labor to do so.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you 100% on just going with Koni, so the following is moot (but still).

The HD and Sports have the same valving in the applications (per chassis) that I've seen tested, on actual shock dynos or whatever that machine is called. I think the shocks that were tested were for E36 and E30 respectively (HD and Sports). My point is that the only difference between Sport and HD may be a shorter rod and travel, thus why on the E36 (and seems like E34) chassis, Billy Sports with lowering springs have a bad name. I made no modification to the HDs combined with H&R springs on my M5 and found the ride quite enjoyable. We're getting into anecdotes now, and I apologize.

We are on the same page sir! The h&r's are a bit on the milder side when it comes to lowering springs (mild drop), so it doesnt surprise me that you enjoyed the HD's with them. When i helped install the HD's on my buddies car with vogtland springs, we shortened the bump stop and assumed they would ride very much or the same as we experienced with the bilstein sports. Save for the wear on these used shocks we installed, they turned out as we expected.

[Layne]

We will find out if this is true.....

Where'd you find that steaming pile of dog doo?

It sort of makes sense if you're thinking of external bump stops limiting the travel, but that's not how bilsteins work. The rod bottoms out inside.

[BleedsBlue]

KYB after all of that? LOL. There are happy users of KYB Jelly Shocks on here for sure, but I'm not sure if they're cars are lowered.

We are on the same page sir! The h&r's are a bit on the milder side when it comes to lowering springs (mild drop), so it doesnt surprise me that you enjoyed the HD's with them. When i helped install the HD's on my buddies car with vogtland springs, we shortened the bump stop and assumed they would ride very much or the same as we experienced with the bilstein sports. Save for the wear on these used shocks we installed, they turned out as we expected.

I gotcha


The above italicized quote is not the best way to describe it for sure, maybe I shouldn't have brought that into it. I just hate to see people recommend crashy-azz Billy Sports because Bilstein says so, when (admittedly with most, but not all springs) the HD pairs just as well with springs without (as much) crashing.

The solution to this dilemma is surely Koni or coil-over

[Hofmeister]

I have Bilsteins and vogtlands. M50 525 and everyone is surprised how well it rides. Car feels very responsive, even better after rd sway bars.
I did have issues the first week till I noticed I had the wrong top hats

[E38740iMD]

maybe because the m50 is not a heavy engine as the m30 and m60

[95525ibob]

to me

Internet is so all over the place! lol
You click the link for the fronts and try to select 1995 and there is no option.

Going to try the KY's and if no good I will cut and fab them up till they a right.


Hi Bob,

Thanks for inquiring Koni Shocks for your 95 BMW 525i. Below, I have attached a link to this part on our website which features the image, specs and prices for your viewing convenience. I have confirmed that both part numbers you have provided will work for your 1995 BMW 525i. Below, I have provided a link to each part on our website which features the image, specs and prices for your viewing convenience. Alternatively, you can reach us between the hours of 10 am and 6 pm EST at 1 800 276 7566 and a member of our sales team would be happy to assist you with your order. Thank you. - Jon

about http://www.tdotperformance.ca/koni-8641-1224sport-sport-series-shocks-and-struts-front-sold-individually.html

http://www.tdotperformance.ca/koni-8...ividually.html

[sugaki]

There are two different issues with the "crashy" rep of Bilsteins, seemingly used interchangeably in this thread. One has to due with valving, the other with the stroke and bump stops.

The main reason why people avoid Bilsteins is because they're just not valved well for our cars, whether HD or Sport. Too much high-speed compression means the shocks react excessively to high-amplitude bumps. What this means is you feel every little small imperfection in the road, which not only isn't comfortable, but isn't desirable even for a performance application. Not all stiff shocks are equal--a well-designed shock will mute the small imperfections while feeling the bigger bumps. Bilsteins just crash over every dimple on the road.

Koni's are valved much better--the main downside to them is there's a rumor that Koni's don't last as long as Bilsteins, but I haven't heard that with E34s (more with E36s), and even then it could be because people were setting them up stiffer--technically I think you're only supposed to adjust the stiffness as the shocks start to wear out. Bilsteins Sports do handle a little better imo, but the trade-off isn't worth it unless you're building a dedicated track machine.

The other issue is whether to opt for Bilstein Sports or HDs. AFAIK the only difference between them is the stroke is shorter on Sports, and they have shorter internal bump stops to compensate. If HD internal bump stops are longer, you will hit the bump stops more often, which will feel crashy when you hit a big bump. You can either get HDs and trim the internal stops or just get the Billy Sports and the end result is the same.

[BleedsBlue]

Trimming the internal stops on the HD maybe necessary for some (I sure didn't need to, though H&R springs are admittedly a mild drop).

The point I've not made well (or at all) is that the Sports have less travel, so regardless of the internal bump stops I prefer to avoid that.

Either way I agree the standard valving is poor for most '90s BMWs

[demetk]

Don't the HD's and sports have the same available piston travel (car resting on the ground to full compression)?

[BleedsBlue]

^That's now my main question. I was told no awhile ago by someone who cut 'em up and (I thought) tested them reliably, but now I'm definitely questioning everything. I've been under the impression the Billy Sports are shorter stroke (via shorter rod + piston travel) and definitely need to know if I'm off base here!