So, just how much better are MCS double adjustables vs Koni's?

[DocWyte]

I have the Ground Control single adjustable kit on my 98 M3 now. With their camber plates, rear shock mounts etc. Seems to be working fine, as much as my amateur butt can tell.

My plan was to upgrade to some sort of double adjustables at some point. Well, when I got my lap times down to certain levels at my local tracks really. I'm not quite at those levels yet, but a set of MCS adjustables popped up used locally.

They're still, um, kinda expensive though, which makes me pause. Just how much better are these? In other words, is my amateur ass going to be able to tell an immediate difference and be able to exploit that and see a significant drop in my lap times?

[Bimmerman535i]

is my amateur ass going to be able to tell an immediate difference

Yes. Especially chassis control and large bump/impact control (i.e. kerbs)

and be able to exploit that and see a significant drop in my lap times?

Most likely no, not immediately.

I went from tired but functioning TCK DA to MCS DA (non-remote) and my lap times stayed exactly the same for a few events. However: car control was improved, bump control is absurdly good, the damper adjustments are discrete and noticeable, and I wasn't fighting the car nearly as much. Lap time improvement over already good suspension was negligible, but the way it went around the track was phenomenally different even with a hack driving it. I've had a few friends drive the car who are competitive TTers (with TCKs) and they notice a large difference between TCK and MCS on equivalently set up E36s.

The TCKs were a (much) better dual duty setup. The MCSs are fantastic on track but I'm not thrilled with their street manners.

Ultimately...if what you have isn't holding you back appreciably, don't bother spending the money. My TCKs weren't holding me back and I fully admit falling victim to oooh shiny syndrome, but the MCSs are awesome so...no regrets.

[DocWyte]

Why don't you like the MCS for street duty?

[Bimmerman535i]

Why don't you like the MCS for street duty?

I don't dislike them. I just would not buy them if your priorities favor street manners heavily or over track performance.

They aren't as comfortable. They're a race part, and even turned down to soft, at similar spring rates, they're stiffer and less compliant on the road. They do not soak up the tiny high frequency stuff as well as the Konis, which are floatier (again, race car part, so this is expected). Note: on the MCSs you can set them up to be so underdamped as to porpoise down the road, i.e. full soft is too soft. The adjustment range is huge but I still haven't found a street setting I'm happy with.

The beauty of the MCSs is you can turn them down to 'meh, good enough I guess' levels for street use and then turn them back up to 'holy crap this is magic' levels on track.

The TCKs, in contrast, go from 'wow, this is really comfy' to 'wow, this is really fast' levels.

The best I can describe: TCK's special sauce is their trackable street damping, while MCS's special sauce is their streetable track damping.

[DocWyte]

Ok, gotcha.

Which kinda leads me to my next question. How hard is it to dial in the MCS dampening rates on the track and how do you quantify where to set them? Or is it "Call your local BMW race shop and ask them where to set them?"

[Bimmerman535i]

Ok, gotcha.

Which kinda leads me to my next question. How hard is it to dial in the MCS dampening rates on the track and how do you quantify where to set them? Or is it "Call your local BMW race shop and ask them where to set them?"

How much experience do you have adjusting your GCs?

There are rough guidelines for setting the MCSs up, but honestly it's on the driver to determine whether adjusting rebound/compression will solve under/oversteer conditions on your local track. Calling the raceshop will get you in the ballpark but fine tuning really can't be done by anyone else but you, on track, in your car, on your tires/springs/bars/etc. MCS publishes baseline settings on their website, which is a good starting point at the very least. This is much more of a feel than a quantified data-driven science without significant data acquisition experience and expense.

If you don't feel familiar with the cause-> effect -> adjustment loop on your single adjustable GCs, the MCSs are probably overkill.

[dmw16]

Another option for setup is to hire a pro coach for the day that also does car setup. At the open track days I've run you can get a few hours of an instructors time for under $1000 which is worth it when you're talking about setup on a $6000+ set of double adjustable MCS coils.

[Bimmerman535i]

Another option for setup is to hire a pro coach for the day that also does car setup. At the open track days I've run you can get a few hours of an instructors time for under $1000 which is worth it when you're talking about setup on a $6000+ set of double adjustable MCS coils.

Also a great option for both driver and chassis development. You still will want to know what fiddling with the knobs does, but at least this way you'd have a tailored baseline to go back to.

[jamesclay]

I feel like the MCS range of adjustment is way wider. There are certainly some tracks and conditions that you may be just very well suited for with what you have. For example, I was at MidO supporting a customer racing in IP years ago and there was another very good racer that was dead even - until it rained and we had the range to soften up the car and smoked him by seconds a lap. I am confident it was suspension, not driver. That track specifically will work with softer springs, and his dampers were good at controlling those softer springs well in the typical range for a typical day. Go outside that box and things change. Track conditions change - a different setup works better and the damper got us there. And for most of the tracks we go to, more spring is better and the MCS controls that heavier rate better while still keeping the car compliant - for both driver comfort and grip.

We have a baseline (different than the manufacturer recommended) we send out when we sell dampers, but not when people just call us up I consider it IP, and I have spent a lot of time learning how to set up cars in general, and specifically with a range of MCS setups, and it has value. Typically someone might end up a few clicks away from our baseline for the typical track/setup, but it is really close, and we provide post-sale support to dial it in and teach you how to. Typically with a better damper, and the right baseline, I would expect someone upgrading from a lesser damper to immediately be better off - If you pay a shop to put an S54 in your E36, it's faster, even if you didn't do the work or know how they did it. That being said, I think part of progressing as a driver is learning to break down handling issues and you would be well-served to learn the process.

[Bimmerman535i]

Doc-- will return call this afternoon/evening

I feel like the MCS range of adjustment is way wider. There are certainly some tracks and conditions that you may be just very well suited for with what you have. For example, I was at MidO supporting a customer racing in IP years ago and there was another very good racer that was dead even - until it rained and we had the range to soften up the car and smoked him by seconds a lap. I am confident it was suspension, not driver. That track specifically will work with softer springs, and his dampers were good at controlling those softer springs well in the typical range for a typical day. Go outside that box and things change. Track conditions change - a different setup works better and the damper got us there. And for most of the tracks we go to, more spring is better and the MCS controls that heavier rate better while still keeping the car compliant - for both driver comfort and grip.

We have a baseline (different than the manufacturer recommended) we send out when we sell dampers, but not when people just call us up I consider it IP, and I have spent a lot of time learning how to set up cars in general, and specifically with a range of MCS setups, and it has value. Typically someone might end up a few clicks away from our baseline for the typical track/setup, but it is really close, and we provide post-sale support to dial it in and teach you how to. Typically with a better damper, and the right baseline, I would expect someone upgrading from a lesser damper to immediately be better off - If you pay a shop to put an S54 in your E36, it's faster, even if you didn't do the work or know how they did it. That being said, I think part of progressing as a driver is learning to break down handling issues and you would be well-served to learn the process.

I agree with this-- as an example, a week after breaking in the rod bearings on my S54 swap I did an HPDE with the GGC chapter at Thunderhill, and set the knobs to Bimmerworld's recommended settings. Car worked great, I liked it, instructors liked it, buddy loved it, good day was had. I intentionally didn't fiddle with the knobs during the day. Second day, first two sessions were rainy and drying. I set the suspension to the BW 'rain' settings and dear god the thing grips. Most everyone else in the session was sliding and all over the place, my car was hooked up remarkably well. As the day dried out I progressively went back towards the dry settings and the car was just great all day. Awesome awesome track suspension.

Bimmerworld (and James') support has also been fantastic post-sale. I still have qualms (read: stiff ride even set to 'soft') with the suspension for street use, but I bought (fantastic) racecar parts for a car that sees lots of track use, so it's to be expected.

[chikinhed]

What are their recommended wet and dry settings?

[DocWyte]

Bimmerman535, looking forward to hearing from you

[Bimmerman535i]

@Doc-- just got home, will call tomorrow. sorry!

What are their recommended wet and dry settings?

Per James' post, that's their IP.

[John in Houston]

I'm not quite at those levels yet, but a set of MCS adjustables popped up used locally. They're still, um, kinda expensive though, which makes me pause. Just how much better are these? In other words, is my amateur ass going to be able to tell an immediate difference and be able to exploit that and see a significant drop in my lap times?

Those local dampers are priced very nicely. I've been considering them as well. Another local GTS2 car has the MCS doubles. We got them dialed in during an open lapping day (I was standing at turn 10 at PMP watching the car come through the turn and then suggested we make some changes... that's how it started). Part of it was seat time (how does the car feel, what does it do and where, how does the driver feel), part of it was watching the car through certain corners (bouncing? sliding? Over / Under steer), and a lot of it was data. We just upped the spring rates last month (video and data supported this) and will be hitting the track again soon to start checking all of the items we went through last time (seat, visual, data) and dialing them back in.

The nice thing about the MCS doubles (or any quality adjustable damper) is the ability to adjust based on the track. Bumpy track vs. smooth track. Rain vs. dry. A log book will become very handy when you start manipulating settings. On your car, I ran AST 4200s on the street and track. I had a log book for every track with temps, weather, tire pressures, shock settings. I would dial the shocks back when on the street, then pull out the log book when I hit the track so I knew what my starting point was for the day / weekend.

James brings up a lot of really good points (including the IP of settings and rent-a-coach). I hear he likes HPR.

If I had $2500 sitting in my pocket right now, those MCS' would be in my garage I'll probably hold off until next year and then dump the two sets of AST 4200s I have and pick up some MCS doubles with remotes or JRZ doubles.

[VaTechE36]

What are their recommended wet and dry settings?

Sigh...you must not be good at reading or something...if you want to specs go buy the suspension kit and get all the assistance that comes along with purchasing from bimmerworld.

[jakermac]

Sigh...you must not be good at reading or something...if you want to specs go buy the suspension kit and get all the assistance that comes along with purchasing from bimmerworld.

Harsh!

[DocWyte]

I'm definitely playing Little League here John, 2 sets of AST's? Damn...

I'm a little torn about picking up the MCS', I'd given myself hard time goals to hit before I was going to let myself spend the cash for better suspension. At the same time it doesn't make sense to wait, then pay a whole bunch more later....

[olemiss540]

There will always be another set available Doc when your ready to make the jump. The money pit NEVER ends for possible upgrades, and it wasn't too long ago when you were suffering under all of the $$$ to get the car up to speed. No need to self inflict anything now!

Enjoy your well sorted car and realize there is ALWAYS going to be better/faster/nicer st*$ out there. Doesn't make the track time any more enjoyable.....

[DocWyte]

True, plus I'm not through doing the maintenance on mine yet. I have a box full of ball joints/bushings waiting for me to rebuild the front control arms. Then I'll have gone through the entire car pretty much.

Also I did just blow a wad of cash on a used set of front/rear Stoptech BBK that popped up locally a few months ago too. Thought that was too good to pass up for sure, as I'd been looking for a used Stoptech kit for months...

A few small odds and ends remain after that but nothing that impacts the way anything really works. (Like I need to replace the broken center hvac vent and figure out why the keyless entry isn't working)

[VaTechE36]

You could use that money to keep the car running and get more track time to get you down to those hard time targets =)

[John in Houston]

I'm definitely playing Little League here John, 2 sets of AST's? Damn...

I got hit twice last year... both times breaking a strut. I now carry a full set of replacements in the trailer. The 4200s aren't known for being extremely robust in w2w scenarios... so it's cheap(er) insurance

I'm a little torn about picking up the MCS', I'd given myself hard time goals to hit before I was going to let myself spend the cash for better suspension. At the same time it doesn't make sense to wait, then pay a whole bunch more later....

The price is about 1k short of what a new set costs from some vendors, minus the mounts which you already have. It's a good deal.... but not a great deal. At $2k we wouldn't be having this conversation

[DocWyte]

John, gotcha. The 4200's are more delicate than Koni's, MCS' etc? Weird.

Hear you on the price, I was thinking much the same. I may end up skipping these for this year as I bought the stoptechs. Keep me in mind for a set of the 4200's when you're ready to sell them.

[chikinhed]

Sigh...you must not be good at reading or something...if you want to specs go buy the suspension kit and get all the assistance that comes along with purchasing from bimmerworld.

Thank you for your very helpful post. I apologize dearly for only scanning this thread and missing the part about only being helpful to their customers that have bought the product from them. Unfortunately I don't feel that it would be financially viable for me to sell my set of MCS doubles to again purchase them again from Bimmerworld. I purchased the MCS doubles from Vorshlag as I had been dealing with them for years with my AST 4200's and they had given me a decent deal as a result. I also purchase parts from Bimmerworld.

Bimmerworld's position on sharing information can go two ways. Some people might go to them because they will share basic set up info if you buy from them, some might think that their attitude about sharing basic set up info is rude compared to the next reseller that will help out anyone that calls them. We are just talking base settings here.

[Bimmerman535i]

Ask Terry at Vorshlag if they have any set up guides, since you bought the set from them?

The initial settings direct from MCS (downloadable from their website and are 8R 4C from soft) work fairly well IMO. Bimmerworld's settings are also just a baseline to be adjusted from.

[VaTechE36]

First off, my apologies for the tone...I was just assuming you were fishing for information people have paid a lot of money to get. Had you put in that much detail in your original post giving some background, you could have gotten more helpful information, but your single sentence question came off a bit misleading. Since you provided some additional details, you got a more helpful answer from Bimmerman535i which should hopefully point you in the right direction.

You could also try calling BW and asking, but I wouldn't hold my breath because I'm assuming they've put a lot of time and energy into coming up with some good baseline settings based on their experience that is an added bonus when decided who to purchase equipment from.

Either way, good luck, my apologies again for the harshness, and enjoy your baller suspension =)