any1 driven or own an m3 w/ shrick intake mani?

[Foda420]

You can find motors for $3-4k, and the sale of an S52 can subsidize another $2k.

Rear diff's don't do much without an increased redline - and every M5x based motor is capped in that regard.

That's a fun setup, but you're pretty much maxed out at 260whp. Stock S54's put down 275-280, and 300+ with headers+tune or 330+ with cams etc, so the additional cost also nets you substantial gains. But I do understand the need to keep the S52. Personally speaking, I think it's a much better engine in FI form than it is NA. Hence my opinion is that when looking at the big picture it's best left mostly stock.

Actually, currently I'm around that number and after ironing out the remaining kinks and an actual tune I expect to be closer to 280 or so. Also, the average cost of an S52 lately is closer to the $1500 range.

And being the gearhead I am, I couldn't just throw the motor in there, it would have to go through all the usual fixes plus any mods that would be too difficult to get to later. Suddenly $10k seems low. I'm not gonna argue that it isn't superior, clearly it is, just saying that it isn't necessarily the best route if you don't have $10- $15k but want around 300whp NA. But that's the cost of modding NA I guess XD

[jvit27]

Right. You can make a dyno say whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking your S52 will make 280 *actual* whp.

[Bimmerman535i]

Right. You can make a dyno say whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking your S52 will make 280 *actual* whp.

Or have streetability....or emissions legality....

I personally really like a maxed out NA S52, they're really stout and really fun. I have yet to see one over 240whp (I.e M50 + tune) that I'd want to drive daily or could smog legally. Hence why I did an S54.

[jvit27]

Or have streetability....or emissions legality....

I personally really like a maxed out NA S52, they're really stout and really fun. I have yet to see one over 240whp (I.e M50 + tune) that I'd want to drive daily or could smog legally. Hence why I did an S54.

Yup! NA S52's are fun, but after personally going down every single one of these roads I only offer shortcuts through experience.

240whp is <$1000 and 260whp is $4000, yet you can have a 280whp S52 for $10,000 (built), or $2500 (SC). For $5000 you can have 400whp (FI). For <$10,000 you can have a 320whp (S54) or 500whp V8/turbo.

So for the money, the smartest move is M50/tune. Best NA solution is S54 swap (and still class-able). And big power/dollar is LS or turbo which allows the choice of NA or FI for personal preference.

[pbonsalb]

The guy piecing the mods together over time might end up with the heavily modded S52 because he does not have $2500 or $4000 or $10000 to spend at once.

If you do have a lump sum to spend at once, think about buying a newer car that comes with more power, and financing some of it if necessary -- like a 135i, 335i, E90 M3, E46 M3, which can be patiently bargain shopped from $12k to $25k. An $8k E36 with $10k of mods might be worth $14k when you are done. If money is not the issue (I personally consider any money I spend buying or modding a car to be money I never expect to see any of again and that is fully used up through my enjoyment), then do whatever you want within your budget and enjoy it.

[propcar]

Yup! NA S52's are fun, but after personally going down every single one of these roads I only offer shortcuts through experience.

240whp is <$1000 and 260whp is $4000, yet you can have a 280whp S52 for $10,000 (built), or $2500 (SC). For $5000 you can have 400whp (FI). For <$10,000 you can have a 320whp (S54) or 500whp V8/turbo.

So for the money, the smartest move is M50/tune. Best NA solution is S54 swap (and still class-able). And big power/dollar is LS or turbo which allows the choice of NA or FI for personal preference.

That's good way to put things into perspective. I don't think I'm going much further than where I am on my S52, tune+M50, maybe headers one day, but we're talking minimal gains at this point. I think if one stumbles on a good price for an S54, that's probably the best bet to stay N/A, and seems like best option for track cars. Although turbo seems like alot of fun and they can be reliable if built/maintained right, just out of curiosity, what FI system gets you 400whp for $5000?

[pbonsalb]

For $5k, you can get 400 rwhp with a used intercooled centrifugal system or a used turbo system. Turbo needs lower compression headgasket and studs and strong clutch since it makes full boost where the centrifugal will make only a few psi, which means it makes a lot more torque earlier. A good DIYer carefully shopping can put together a new turbo system for $5k, but buying some parts used makes it easier. New intercooled supercharger or turbo kit from a tuner like Active Autowerke or CES Motorsports is closer to $7k. At that price, turbo is the way I would go.

[Foda420]

Right. You can make a dyno say whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking your S52 will make 280 *actual* whp.

Lol I'm not fooling myself or anyone else. With the VAC 286/272 cams, supporting mods and a proper tune, those numbers are more or less what's expected (275-285). There's a couple other forum members who have had the same cams and can attest although I won't put them on the spot.

As for being streetable, I was pleasantly surprised. It's no stock car of course but if I'm not in it she's very mild mannered. Emissions, well, per the state its registered in it's all legal, although it is not 50 state legal. This one is just part of the beast.

In the end it came down to money and preferences. I'm not an FI guy, at least not with this car so that was immediately out, in any form. Realistically I couldn't afford a carbon airbox for an S54 so I would be capped around 320-330whp. To me, right now, the extra 40 or so HP wasn't worth the $8k+ difference over what my build cost me. Eventually, maybe, but for now I'm really quite happy I went this way.

[DocWyte]

My car with all the bolt ons minus cams is basically in the low 240's. I made 237rwhp up here at altitude. If I added a set of cams I'd make 250-260rwhp depending on which cams. With mild cams the car would be perfectly streetable and would pass smog without an issue.

The issue is that it's a whole lot of cash for 10-20rwhp more and not really worth it because of that.

If I wanted to make a bunch more power and didn't care about breaking out of my time trial class I'd buy a used aftercooled Dinan/RMS vortech kit and call it a day.

[ThreeD]

What's the deal with S54 and emissions/smog these days? Obviously state dependent but for OBD2 plugin check without visual do you need to do all the charcoal canister and fuel system changes, or has someone figured out a way to code it out and have the VINs match, etc, and still pass?

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[Bimmerman535i]

What's the deal with S54 and emissions/smog these days? Obviously state dependent but for OBD2 plugin check without visual do you need to do all the charcoal canister and fuel system changes, or has someone figured out a way to code it out and have the VINs match, etc, and still pass?

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Highly depends on the state, with some states not caring and some (CA) practically requiring OEM integration. My S54 is 100% California smog legal, which required the stock headers, charcoal canister with DMTL pump/valve, the secondary air pump, and to keep it (temporarily) visually stock. You can code out these things, but then you'll fail visual and likely fail OBD2 checks in the more stringent states. You will need a CAN interpreter board (PM gpeterson or Andrew325is on r3vlimited) if you don't use a Z3 CAN-enabled instrument cluster. If you are using a fancier cluster, you need the VINs to match.

....that's it. Just install an E46 charcoal canister (reuse the existing OBD2 lines!), wire in/repurpose four wires, install the E46 SAP instead of the E36, retain stock(!) US cats, and you're emissions legal. Super simple, takes maybe an afternoon of extra work, a trip to the hardware store, and a junkyard/ebay trip for the canister/pump, with no coding needed.

If you're starting with an OBD1 car like I did, step 1 is install OBD2 E36 fuel system, then do the above. Slightly more of a PITA, but not impossible.

[DocWyte]

Colorado doesn't really care about visual. While doing an engine swap like this they want you to take it to the referee, who will go through the car with a fine toothed comb. That said I doubt any of the smog places would even notice a S54 vs an S50/52. As long as it scanned ok and blew clean on the rollers you'd be fine.

If you wanted to be a stickler about it and "do it right", the referee here will check to make sure all the readiness codes are set, that you have the proper amount of cats, O2 sensors, secondary air pump etc.

[ThreeD]

Highly depends on the state, with some states not caring and some (CA) practically requiring OEM integration. My S54 is 100% California smog legal, which required the stock headers, charcoal canister with DMTL pump/valve, the secondary air pump, and to keep it (temporarily) visually stock. You can code out these things, but then you'll fail visual and likely fail OBD2 checks in the more stringent states. You will need a CAN interpreter board (PM gpeterson or Andrew325is on r3vlimited) if you don't use a Z3 CAN-enabled instrument cluster. If you are using a fancier cluster, you need the VINs to match.

....that's it. Just install an E46 charcoal canister (reuse the existing OBD2 lines!), wire in/repurpose four wires, install the E46 SAP instead of the E36, retain stock(!) US cats, and you're emissions legal. Super simple, takes maybe an afternoon of extra work, a trip to the hardware store, and a junkyard/ebay trip for the canister/pump, with no coding needed.

If you're starting with an OBD1 car like I did, step 1 is install OBD2 E36 fuel system, then do the above. Slightly more of a PITA, but not impossible.

Wow, that is not nearly as bad as I thought. Sounds like a lot of the legwork has been worked out. I'm assuming people make harnesses now? Or are people still using Z3M harnesses

If you can do it for $10k or $15k with rebuild included, it is narrowing the difference of cost between swapping in a S54 vs rebuild a blown S52...(assuming no classing concerns)

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[DocWyte]

You can rebuild an S52 for $5000 including labor, so a S54 swap is still quite a bit more expensive.

[bimma360]

You can rebuild an S52 for $5000 including labor, so a S54 swap is still quite a bit more expensive.

I am sure rebuild and refresh are words that tend to be relative to whomever is using them. I think since this in the context of an S54 swap, a full S52 performance rebuild will be double that $5k, especially if that includes labor. I just can't see someone who would only refresh an S52 to stock specs even entertain the idea of swapping a S54.

[ThreeD]

I am sure rebuild and refresh are words that tend to be relative to whomever is using them. I think since this in the context of an S54 swap, a full S52 performance rebuild will be double that $5k, especially if that includes labor. I just can't see someone who would only refresh an S52 to stock specs even entertain the idea of swapping a S54.

Yes, easily ~$10k without including labor to remove and install

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[DocWyte]

That $5000 includes cleaning up the head plus new pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Stock cams though.

[ThreeD]

That $5000 includes cleaning up the head plus new pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Stock cams though.

Yeah definitely understand where you are coming from. I think more realistically though for most here we will be doing performance head, valve job, upgraded valve train, cams, headers, all the stuff that makes sense to do when engine is out and head is off. Maybe treated rod bearings, new pistons, rings, at minimum a hone and cut of the head.

Anyways I think we agree stock for stock S54 is significantly more expensive but if you're looking for a significant performance increase and you've blown your S52 it is probably not much more $ to swap to S54. Amazing where the swap has come in a few years

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[Reprisal]

I would not recommend an M50 manifold alone -- I agree you lose noticeable bottom end and your stock redline limits your top end gains.

But as part of a well thought out package of mods, it is a great one. European Car proved that years ago (M50 manifold, tune, intake, Schrick cams). They plugged much of the bottom end tradeoff. Had they done headers and a track pipe, their results would have been even better. Another good mod to make the car feel torquier is to change to a 3.38 diff. An electric fan conversion and underdrive pulleys also help. I have done all this stuff over the years. Here is the European Car article:

....

It comes down to a matter of personal preference and driving style. I am actually not a frequent redliner. I like good low end power, and I feel like I have enough of it. But everyone should do the research and see what they think will work for them. If they want an expensive compromise manifold, I think the Schrick is the only one around.

Granted I don't have a dog in this fight since I've got an S50, but by the time someone installs the full range of mods you and the article are suggesting (tune/intake/cam/exhaust/diff/fans/pulleys), the price is well beyond the going rate of a Schrick manifold.

Personally, I wouldn't want to lose any mid-range grunt on a street-driven car. Even if the Schrick doesn't make all of the top end gains as an M50 with all supporting mods... IMHO it's still worth the price since the mids are preserved (and would thus only be 'enhanced' rather than 'regained' with chip/intake etc.).

Don't take this as a knock against doing the M50 mani, it's still a great mod if you want more top end and are willing to make the compromise. But when push comes to shove, I'd take the Schrick over it in a heartbeat.

[pbonsalb]

You pay more, you get more. Let's say the fancy built S52 with the best of everything makes 300 rwhp. TRM in Atlanta got 400 rwhp out of a fancy built S54 with the best of everything. I would rather have an unstressed S54 making 300 with a few bolt ons than a maxed out S52. Plus, I know that I would eventually want more power (when my car project budget recovered) and the S54 has the overhead to be modded further.

[Reprisal]

You pay more, you get more. Let's say the fancy built S52 with the best of everything makes 300 rwhp. TRM in Atlanta got 400 rwhp out of a fancy built S54 with the best of everything. I would rather have an unstressed S54 making 300 with a few bolt ons than a maxed out S52. Plus, I know that I would eventually want more power (when my car project budget recovered) and the S54 has the overhead to be modded further.

Definitely. It's what I'm working toward right now.

[DocWyte]

Well, that's comparing a built to the 9's S52 to a used S54. You can buy a good, used S52 for $1500 and drop it right in there. Or do a mild build like I said, with slightly higher compression pistons and a cleaned up head for not that much cash.

Depends on your goals and budget....

[Bimmerman535i]

Well, that's comparing a built to the 9's S52 to a used S54. You can buy a good, used S52 for $1500 and drop it right in there. Or do a mild build like I said, with slightly higher compression pistons and a cleaned up head for not that much cash.

Depends on your goals and budget....

I dunno. If you are the type of person considering whether to go to the effort to rebuild an S52 with higher compression pistons to the tune of ~$5k ish....you can get a bcuz racekar S54 swap done in a weekend for ~$6500. Chances are good that you already have a higher capacity cooling system and a 3" exhaust that can be merged with the S54 exhaust, so all you need to do is swap in the engine ($3.5k), slap a z3m harness on it ($0.6k), and flash the DME to run as a standalone (free, because internet). Add the miscellaneous parts needed to install and run it (engine arms, exhaust headers/merge pipes, that goddamn bolt you lost somewhere in the garage), and you're at $6.5k. That kind of swap can be done crazy fast for very little money compared to the crazy-person OEM integration swap (), and will work well.

Outside of race class or emissions reasons, I see zero reason to actually rebuild or OCD-level refresh an S50/52. At that point, either get a junkyard S52 (if you're sane) or swap an S54 (if you're a crazy person).

[jvit27]

EDIT: listen to Bimmerman535i - he has done one of the most thorough jobs i've yet to see. As far as I'm concerned, he and his buddy are an authority on proper S54 swaps.

I am sure rebuild and refresh are words that tend to be relative to whomever is using them. I think since this in the context of an S54 swap, a full S52 performance rebuild will be double that $5k, especially if that includes labor. I just can't see someone who would only refresh an S52 to stock specs even entertain the idea of swapping a S54.

^ This. Thank you.

That $5000 includes cleaning up the head plus new pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Stock cams though.

Ok I'm not really sure why you even went there... add in another $3000 in the actual performance hardware (headers, cams, HFM, tune, pullies, etc) and you've already well exceeded the cost of an S54 swap while making less power.

Granted I don't have a dog in this fight since I've got an S50, but by the time someone installs the full range of mods you and the article are suggesting (tune/intake/cam/exhaust/diff/fans/pulleys), the price is well beyond the going rate of a Schrick manifold.

Personally, I wouldn't want to lose any mid-range grunt on a street-driven car. Even if the Schrick doesn't make all of the top end gains as an M50 with all supporting mods... IMHO it's still worth the price since the mids are preserved (and would thus only be 'enhanced' rather than 'regained' with chip/intake etc.).

Don't take this as a knock against doing the M50 mani, it's still a great mod if you want more top end and are willing to make the compromise. But when push comes to shove, I'd take the Schrick over it in a heartbeat.

Someone who gets it!! Everyone focuses on peak numbers. And no matter what NA mods you do, the TORQUE doesn't change much due to the displacement remaining the same so preserve what you have and don't spend a fortune trying to turn an S52 into an S54. BMW already did it for us better than the aftermarket. You can spend an extra $500 on a Schrick to gain 10wtq (which you will actually feel in every gear), or an extra $2000 to gain 10whp at redline.

Here's a simple guide for any S52 owner:
Leave it alone: $0
Manifold/Tune: <$1000 (muffler optional for sound)
Forced Induction: $5000

If those choice don't appeal to you, just go S54 or LSx. It's really that simple.

[pbonsalb]

Does everyone with a 1995 M3 that has only 3.0L and comes from the factory with an M50 manifold complain about terrible low end torque? I don't think so. And a 96-99M3 with 3.2L and a swap to an M50 manifold with a tune will make more torque than the 95M3 that no one complained about. And BMW even slightly shortened the diff on the later cars, from 3.15 to 3.23.


Maybe you guys complaining about needing every lb of torque you have are towing trailers or have some sort of special purpose driving needs. I am actually a lazy driver who usually short shifts, and I have never felt my 99M3 with M50 manifold and tune lacks low end torque.

You might want to look at an N54 motor 135i and 335i. They make great low end torque. With an auto you get seamless power. Good lazy driver car that does not need to be run to redline. And with a $500 tune, you can outrun a modded E36 or E46.