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Thread: e36 M3 6500 rpm Blues

  1. #26
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    '98 M3/4/5, 1965 Porsce
    Despite high RPM issues with the car I drove it to LA and back (700 miles round trip). The car ran great but it was a bit frustrating as I never went much over 4500 RPM. I finally spent some more time on my car yesterday. Using electrical part cleaner spray I cleaned all ignition related connectors that were easily accessible and cleaned up the grounds to the coil packs. I then swapped the spark plugs and coil packs between cylinders 1 and 2 as the ongoing misfire has been on cylinder 1. The test drive was consistent in that Cylinder 1 still misfired at 4900 rpm (3rd gear) and threw a CEL. Had to pull over with an engine running on 5 cylinders and do a restart. So I at least know what is not causing the problem. Strongly suspecting the Fuel Injector on that cylinder. I also plan to look at live data however I first need to get an OBD reader extension cord so I can have a passenger read the data.....trying to read the scanner while driving at speed is not a good idea. Looking at the live data options I am not sure which parameters I should be trying to read:
    SPARKADV, IAT, MAF, TP, AIR_STAT, O2B1S1, O2BIS2, 02B2S1, 02B2S2, DTC_CNT, FUELSYS1, LOAD_PCT, ECT, SHRTFT1, LONGFT1, SHRTFT2, LONGFT2.
    All though frustrated that the problem is not fixed I feel looking I am getting closer to solving this. Again any help or ideas are greatly appreciated!

    Thanks in advance.
    Phil T
    Santa Cruz, CA
    1998 M3/4/5 w/80K
    1965 Porsche 356 C Vintage Racecar

  2. #27
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    I had to go back and refresh my memory, it's been a while....

    Back in post #12, you showed the bank 1 fuel trim, in closed loop, as pulling 21% of the fuel. I suggested sending the injectors off to RC Engineering then. And I strongly suggest the same thing now.

    You need to establish some baselines, and what the injectors are doing would appear to be the most important of all.

    Swapping injectors, or even replacing one of them, really isn't nearly as good as getting before and after computerized reports on each of them....because this way, you can know, and analyze, what was wrong, and whether you've actually fixed it. RCE will make the injectors perfect, yes....with a much more precise analysis than even brand new injectors.

    Let's just hypothesize: Say that numbers 2 and 3 injectors are stuck open, and dripping twice the fuel they're supposed to be delivering, but number 1 is perfect. The DME reads 1,2, and 3 all together, at the O2 sensor, so it's going to see the mixture of bank 1 as ultra-rich, and start pulling fuel. And while this will help cylinders 2 and 3, poor cylinder 1 will now be running WAY lean....perhaps to the point of misfiring.

    Or, maybe, cylinder 1 injector is clogged, and can only deliver enough fuel for low rpm, low load operation....?

    For the price of a single injector, you can make all 6 perfect, AND know whether the injectors were actually your problem all along -- or not.

    Make sure to scratch the cylinder numbers into the injectors, before sending them off, so that you can cross-reference RCE's numbers after the injectors return home. A sharpie won't work, because the injectors will be spotlessly clean and restored, you need to scratch the numbers into each one.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  3. #28
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    Chris, I greatly appreciate your input and as a result I am going to pull all the fuel injectors and have them tuned by RCE. I do need to establish a baseline and I believe a systematic approach to this problem is best. My next post to this site will be the how the car responds to calibrated fuel injectors.

    Phil

  4. #29
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    Today I finally got some time to spend on the car and removed all the fuel injectors with plans to send them to RCE for calibration. Upon removal I found that the car had 4 Pink Top Injectors, P/N0280150440, located in cylinders 3 thru 6. (The one in cylinder 3 was missing the green printle.) Cylinders 1 and 2 had Bosch Injectors, P/N 0280156370 (no spray printles). I was planning on sending these to RCE tomorrow but now wondering if the car should be running the same injectors for all cylinders. To me it seems like that could be important. I am considering buying 2 more of the Pink Top injectors and then sending all 6 to RCE. Not even sure that the P/N 0280150440 injectors are correct for the 3.2 engine.

    IMG_2867.jpg

  5. #30
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    Yeah, that looks like the you might have found the answer to the problem, alright. Looks pretty close to my hypothesis; I'll keep my fingers crossed that the injectors are of two different specs, and that this solves the issues.

    Someone over in the E36M3 section should have a couple of spare injectors to send you for cheap......maybe buy 3, and send 7 off to RCE?

    Those are Bosch part numbers, not BMW's, so try looking them up at the Bosch website, to check their specs?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  6. #31
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    I'd speak with the outfit you plan on having re-do the injectors. To them a core is just a core and if you ask they may provide a set all the same brand.
    Good luck, sounds promising.
    Last edited by ross1; 03-06-2017 at 07:26 AM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  7. #32
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    '98 M3/4/5, 1965 Porsce
    Finally got around to installing the rebuilt fuel injectors that were serviced by RC Fuel Injection in Torrance CA. I sent them 7 injectors for calibration and got back brand new looking parts with a report indicating that all of the injectors were now right at 205cc/min with excellent spray pattern. Needless to say I was very excited to go test drive the car as I was sure my problem with the dropped cylinder would be gone.Unfortunately I am still getting a CEL and the car is shutting down Cylinder 1. I read the OBD Freeze Frame data and got the following:

    DTCFRZF PO301
    FUELSYS1 OL
    FUELSYS2 OL
    LOAD_PCT(%) 71.4
    ECT(F)161
    SHRTFT1(%) 0.0
    LONGFT1(%) 0.0
    SHRTFT2(%) 0.0
    LONGFT2(%) 0.0
    RPM (RPM) 6282

    So I have raised the RPM that triggers the CEL from around 5K to 6.2K (3rd Gear) and the fuel trim numbers are perfect. Things are better but the problem is still there. Not sure where to go from here as the car runs great up to the point where it cuts cylinder 1. I am thinking electrical considering that the fuel systems seems to be dialed in. Very frustrating as I have been systematically trying to solve the problem since July 2016. As always any help or ideas on what me be wrong or what I might try/test next would be appreciated.


  8. #33
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    Crap.

    The freeze frame you've got there shows the car in Open Loop, engine too cold, and no fuel adjustments happening. Fuel trim numbers are NOT perfect, they are non-existent.

    You need to clear adaptations, and run the car until you get closed loop operation for a while, so that the DME can reset its parameters for fuel trim.

    Chris

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Crap.

    The freeze frame you've got there shows the car in Open Loop, engine too cold, and no fuel adjustments happening. Fuel trim numbers are NOT perfect, they are non-existent.

    You need to clear adaptations, and run the car until you get closed loop operation for a while, so that the DME can reset its parameters for fuel trim.

    Chris
    This, and quit whoopin on it when it is cold.
    This has to be an ignition problem. I haven't re-read the thread but plugs are all fresh? None of those silly gimmick plugs, right?

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  10. #35
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    Not running fancy plugs or coilpacks. Having done a little research it may be that I just need to drive the car and let the ECU adapt to the new fuel injectors. Plenty of posts talk about needing to drive a car 100 miles or so to allow it to adapt to new changes. This is probably particularly true with new fuel injectors and Long Term Fuel Trim values.

  11. #36
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    Does your scan tool have the capability for 2-way conversation with the DME? If so, you just click on "Erase adaptations", and you'll be starting fresh, immediately.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  12. #37
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    Chris,

    Unfortunately my scan tool does not have 2 way conversation capability.

    I have put a couple hundred miles on the car since I installed the calibrated fuel injectors so I decided to go for an extended test drive, get the car nice and warmed up and see if I can get to 6500 rpm in third, hoping the car had adapted to the new parts. The car drove great and the engine felt very smooth with lots of power as i drove on some sweet Santa Cruz mountain roads. As I dropped down to Highway 1 on the coast I waited for a nice gap in traffic, shifted down to 3rd and went full throttle. Unfortunately once again the CEL came on right around a displayed 6200 RPM. Here is the OBD data:
    DTCFRZF PO305 & PO306
    FUELSYS1 OL
    FUELSYS2 OL
    LOAD_PCT(%) 6.7
    ECT(F)165
    SHRTFT1(%) 0.0
    LONGFT1(%) 5.5
    SHRTFT2(%) 0.0
    LONGFT2(%) 7.0
    RPM (RPM) 4741
    VSS 88

    So now instead of a Cylinder 1 misfire I am getting misfires in Cylinders 5 & 6. Interesting that I felt the car dropping the 2 cylinders which occurred right as the tach was reading 6200-6300 RPM. I am suspecting that the engine is misfiring before cutting power to the offending cylinders because of the Freeze Frame data indicating 4741 RPM. Is the fact that the Short Fuel Trim 1 & 2 being 0.0 be indicating something? Again I am open to any and all suggestions.

    Thanks in Advance!
    Phil T
    1998 M3/4/5 Alpine Sedan w/80K

  13. #38
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    I believe the short term trim @ 0 is because you are WOT so running open loop(as indicated) at a fixed value.
    I still think is ignition. If you swap coils will the misfire follow them?
    No gimmick plugs, what about the gaps?
    Another, more ominous, condition could be valve sealing, esp. the exhaust side.
    Last edited by ross1; 04-03-2017 at 07:51 AM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  14. #39
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    I would start by borrowing an infrared temperature gun, and aiming it at your top radiator hose, and also at the cylinder head itself. Every freeze frame you've shown shows an engine running twenty degrees below where it should be. 165 is below the temp necessary for closed loop operation; you really should be at ~185-195 F. IF the DME is seeing data from the engine coolant temp sensor which show 165, when in fact the ECT is really 185, then the DME will deliver too much fuel, perhaps causing misfires.

    Note that I am NOT saying this is the cause of your misfires: ross has pointed to the most common cause - ignition. However, you need to fix what you can actually prove is wrong, first....and your engine coolant temp readings are wrong, over and over. IF the actual temps match the readings, you need to replace your thermostat.

    Note, also, that regardless of when the CEL illuminated, the freeze frame shows that when the first code set, you were actually at 6.7 % load...not full throttle.

    It's very nice to see that your long term fuel trims are back to normal ranges - you've fixed a very important issue by getting your injectors done, no matter what.

    Didn't I understand that you'd replaced coils and plugs already?

    EDIT: Yup, there it is, post number 1: new NGK BKR6 EQUPs and Bosch coil packs. (Hmmm.....did you replace the coil boots when you did the coils? Were the spark plugs soaking in oil at any point, from a bad valve cover gasket? Maybe the boots are shot, and the spark is arcing to the head, instead of the spark plug?
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 04-03-2017 at 12:34 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  15. #40
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    Low temp, as seen by the DME, would account for open loop and the 6.7% load(missed that),wouldn't it? What if the throttle position sensor was reporting incorrectly?
    Also OP please disregard my comment about valve sealing. This would manifest itself more at LOW rpms. Sorry for the red herring

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  16. #41
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    Phil, I'd also mention that the misfire codes will be appearing only after a whole bunch of misfires in a short period of time. If you look at my thread "DME Repair", you'll see that I was often getting DOZENS of misfires every mile, WITHOUT setting codes. Because I was using an advanced pro scanner, I was able to count every misfire, even though codes weren't setting. Also note that I was unable to actually feel these misfires, most of the time, because they were perhaps two pulses missing, in a thousand.

    Have a good read of that DME thread, because I think maybe you're operating a bit outside the box of the things that cause MOST misfires, and we need to consider alternative culprits. That said, we need to see your coolant temps sorted out first, so that all the known parameters are within correct range.

    A few "outside the box" possibilities: (1) check that the DME is properly mounted, grounded, and dry. Perhaps clean both sides of the electrical plug with electrical contact cleaner. If you see any hint of corrosion or trouble on either side of this plug, you need to open up the DME and check inside. (2) make sure the coil bodies are grounded: two cables, one at each end. (3) were all the little metal pain-in-the-butt clips on the injector wiring rail plugs? (4) Open up the coil wiring rail, and have a look at the"sonic weld"; this is a big mass of solder joining the six coil grounds. This joint is well known for cracking, and coming apart electrically.

    And, well, there's #5 - bad engine wiring harness, and # 6, bad DME, or # 7, intermittently failing fuel pressure (unlikely with just a couple of misfire codes, and without dramatic, palpable sputtering)

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  17. #42
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    Your DME expects at least 80 deg C coolant temps for correct fuel adaptations. Some don't even take effect until 80 deg C.

    And I am highly against much lower temp thermostats as a "protective" mechanism for the engine.


    But unfortunately, I don't think that's the cause of misfires.
    Last edited by 328 Power 04; 04-03-2017 at 01:54 PM.
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
    - 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
    - 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
    - 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
    - 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
    - 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
    - 2016 Mini Cooper S

  18. #43
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    I appreciate all the input and agree that the engine is running too cold. The original owner had the car in Dallas for the last few years so he may have swapped the thermostat for that environment. Currently I am on spring break vacation so it will be a bit before I can diagnose the cooling system and see if I need a new thermostat. And since I am on vacation I plan to re-read Chris' DME Repair post. I will also be ordering new coil pack boots to eliminate one more potential problem area.

  19. #44
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    PROBLEM SOLVED!

    First of all I want to thank everybody that made suggestions on fixing this problem! That really helped a lot as there were some great ideas and solutions offered up and I ended up trying most of them. Up till recently I was thinking it was time to put the car on Craig's List and move on as I have been trying to fix this problem for almost a year.

    What fixed my car was cleaning the MAF sensor. This cost me $6 for the can of CRC Lectra Motive cleaner and took about 15 minutes! A bit sad as I easily spent 60-70 hours and over a $1K trying to solve this. This morning I was able to get the car to bounce off the rev limiter in 3rd gear without generating a CEL! WOW!.....that felt great. I am blaming the K&N filter the previous owner installed and most likely someone over oiled it contaminating the MAF. The sensor didn't look obviously dirty and I was not optimistic that the cleaning would help. This highlights that errors codes for cylinder misfire can be caused by a lot things that do not seem directly related to the misfire. I am probably going to get a new OEM MAF to give me peace of mind.

    The good news is that now I can move forward with suspension refreshing and installing the Dinan Springs and X-Brace that I purchased, which I refused to install until I got the engine running right.





    the engine down and restart to reset the ECU.

  20. #45
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    Glad it's sorted!

    I'm not a fan of oiled membrane filters.

    I have been a convert: new oem paper element each oil change.

  21. #46
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    As much as I thought my Cylinder Misfire problem had been solved it is still present and getting very frustrating as I have had the car for a year now and I have not been able to solve my cylinder misfire problem. I have gotten great advice from many people on this site and for that I am thankful as it has given me hope that I was close to have the car fixed. I still love the car as it is in great shape, has lots of power and drives like I expected.

    As a recap to date I have done the following to the car (80K miles):

    Replace Fuel Pump and Fuel Filter
    Replaced all Lifters (fixed loud ticking problem)
    Rebuilt and calibrated fuel injectors (Bosch Pink Top)
    Fresh Oil – Mobil 1 5W-40
    Rebuilt Vanos – Dr. Vanos Stage 2
    New Valve Cover Gasket
    New Plugs – NGK (2 sets)
    New Coil Packs w/boots (2 sets)
    New Thermostat
    Cleaned MAF sensor with CRC Lectramotive Cleaner (this seemed to help)
    Cleaned K&N air filter (stock air box)
    Cleaned all ignition related electric connections with Electrical Part Cleaner
    Cleaned engine to chassis ground and reinstalled with conductive grease

    The car triggered the CEL on the way to work this morning with the following error codes:
    DTCFRZF PO305
    FUELSYS1 OL
    FUELSYS2 OL
    LOAD_PCT(%) 69.4
    ECT(F) 208 (New Thermostat has raised coolant temp)
    SHRTFT1(%) 0.0
    LONGFT1(%) 6.3
    SHRTFT2(%) 0.0
    LONGFT2(%) 7.0
    RPM (RPM) 3771
    VSS 83

    Does this data provide any clues to my problem? I am not opposed to throwing more money at the car as I have only driven it 4K miles in the last year and would like to make this my DD and enjoy the car. My limited knowledge of what might be wrong is thinking O2 sensors or clogged catalytic converters. Any other ideas greatly appreciated?

  22. #47
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    Damn, $#!+.

    First things first, from the new data:

    Engine should NOT be open loop, at 70% throttle, fully warm.

    208 is warm, for an E36 at 83 mph. Was this in the record-high temps you're seeing right now? If so, or was with a/c on, not a problem. You have stock cooling? I forget if you said?

    At this point, I have to believe that either your DME has a fault with cylinder 5, or the wiring harness has a fault for that cylinder.

    What you're seeing sounds a bunch like my m5's misfires. You can see that thread....ended up needing a DME. AFTER coils, plugs, injectors, wring harness, lifters, and leak down, compression, smoke, fuel pressure tests.

    I think at this point I'd be asking Abel to virginize a used DME, or otherwise make it work for you. Hell, he can probably even send you one with a good tune, for that motor!

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  23. #48
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    The switch to open loop happens at 63% TPS on this DME.

    Have we ever established if this DME was original to car to begin with?

    Maybe some poor tuning on it? Maybe it used to be tuned for other hardware (like a supercharger, or 24lbs injectors) or something? If you ask me, running 21.5 pinktops on 24lbs tune would behave kind of like this.
    Last edited by 328 Power 04; 06-22-2017 at 10:59 PM.
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
    - 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
    - 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
    - 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
    - 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
    - 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
    - 2016 Mini Cooper S

  24. #49
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    But isn't this misfire always on #5 ?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  25. #50
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    Chris,

    This has been consistent on Cylinder 5 and I have swapped plugs and coilpacks + the injectors. Yes, on this last incident it was warm and occurred near the top of a 1700 ft pass (know in California as HWY 17). I purchased this car from the original owner and have all records so I do not believe any mods to the engine occurred. However engine software may have been downloaded and not disclosed.

    It is interesting as the previous CEL episode prior to this one showed the following:

    DTCFRZF PO305
    FUELSYS1 CL
    FUELSYS2 CL
    LOAD_PCT(%) 37.3
    ECT(F) 208
    SHRTFT1(%) 14.1
    LONGFT1(%) 0.0
    SHRTFT2(%) 1.6
    LONGFT2(%) 0.0
    RPM (RPM) 3143

    This time the car was showing Closed Loop . I have read through your lengthy DME thread twice and I am also thinking it could be the same problem. I had been planning on getting a performance software package (Turner or Dinan). Would it make sense to get software downloaded now to see if it might fix the problem since I plan on purchasing this anyway? Otherwise I will probably go ahead and pursue a DME swap. I guess the good news is that I haven't had to take the car to a mechanic yet........and it sure makes me appreciate the simplicity of my Porsche 356 racecar.

    Again thanks to everyone who has helped me with this problem. I am pretty committed to seeing this through to a fix and will most likely need some help to get there so again thank you!

    Phil
    Santa Cruz, CA
    '98 M3/4/5 w/81K
    '65 356 C Coupe (1800lbs and 145 HP)


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