M62TUB44 Swap or not???

[KVF]

Thanks again guys! I'm going to get a Bentley or whatever I can, so I'm better prepared to work on the B44.

First order of business is to get and put in new t chain guides. I'll clearly be keeping the B44 cases.

Does anyone have a ballpark figure on the B40 intake manifold gains and whether or not injector and/air intake upgrades are required.

My list of parts is growing and getting expensive. Lol

[Smoky540i]

I can probably get you a B40 intake manifold cheap, but due to its size shipping may not be worth it.

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[moroza]

Intake manifold is plug and play, no other mods required. Definitely change the U-shaped chain guide, but the others I'd do on an as-needed basis (at 156k, mine were ok).

[KVF]

Smoky, thanks for the offer. Hopefully I can find one locally. If that fails I'll look into shipping and get back to you.

Moroza, I was planning to buy one of those all inclusive timing guide, water pump, valley pan kits and knocking everything out. You think it's overkill to change all the guides? They do appear to be in solid shape from what I can tell, but I'm just figuring it'll be so much easier with the engine on this stand.

[moroza]

Well, it certainly won't hurt to change them, just make sure you're not downgrading on quality. I wouldn't use anything but OEM BMW for the guides, though the waterpump can be more flexible. Also, you need the M60 waterpump but the M62 guides, and I doubt there's a pre-assembled kit for that.

[KVF]

Thanks for that reminder about the water pump difference.

I may be over thinking this a bit too much. If it's only the big U shaped guide that routinely fails and all else looks good, maybe I'll just change that. I can piece together the stuff to do the coolant tubes and valley pan gasket.

[KVF]

So with winter behind us I wanted to get this swap rolling... I'm cleaning the engine off and preparing to order parts when I become perplexed about what I have. I have an email pending with the mechanic who I bought it from to try and get the VIN, but in the meantime I figured the forum gurus would likely know. : )

Looking at these pics and numbers... Is this engine a M62B44 OR is it actually a M62TUB44 with Non-TU timing chain case covers Frankenstein'd???

With a B40 intake no less...

Mechanic responded and he doesn't have VIN but is 100% positive that the engine is from a "98" 740i... I am so dumb!!!! How the hell was I thinking it was a TU engine...

My questions regarding the cases still remain... I have no clue what's going on with them, but doesn't it being a B44 mean I can directly swap over my B30 covers.

As always I totally appreciate any and all insight.

[KVF]

So at this point I'm essentially responding to my own topic just to document progress and information, since it appears that the majority of gurus are no longer active.

I have confirmed that the motor is a 98 M62B44 (non-TU).

I have no clue what was done to Frankenstein the timing covers together, but I did confirm that the M60B30 upper covers bolt up correctly. EDIT: TOTALLY FALSE the M60 covers are essentially about 1/4 inch too short and the tensioner mounting hole is significantly misaligned.

It appears that the guides were all intact, but I have new OEM guides and oil separator, so mind as well replace them.


The only issue I'm having is the flywheel and clutch situation. My B30 dual mass flywheel is beyond spec and was making some noise before I pulled it.

Sadly there is no easy single mass flywheel conversion for this motor and 5spd... I'm currently debating the price of a 6speed swap & custom driveshaft VS a JB Racing flywheel and clutch masters e36 clutch disk and pressure plate.

If anyone has any other options please toss them out.

Thanks,
K


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[moroza]

That looks like an M60 lower timing cover and an M62B44NV upper. How does the lower one fit? It has a boss (for oil slinging control, I reckon) that interferes with the U-guide.

[KVF]

Yes, a guru remains! Thanks for the reply!

The lower case fit perfectly other than their having to use a ton of silicone to mate it to the top covers.

It was all working perfectly in the 840ci and I didn't see anything interfering with the U-guide or that they modified it at all. I'm very excited that it appears I'll be able to bolt on both of my M60B30 upper cases in stock fashion.



Doesn't appear to have been any interference.

My only issue is the flywheel and clutch at this point. I have a JB Racing semi-custom flywheel, that was made to fit the 280mm 850csi clutch and pressure plate in the e39 6 speed, but it all seems worthless unless I buy a 6 speed.

Do you know of a driveshaft that will bolt up if I go that route, or must it be a total custom job?

Thanks again,
K


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[moroza]

?!! I could've sworn I ran into a clearance issue when dealing with my timing covers... Otherwise I'd've used the M60 ones as they 1. already have the crank sensor bracket, 2. have a better oil seal between the upper and lower, and 3. have studs to mount the oilfilter housing.

Driveshaft fitment depends on transmission and diff. Medium-case diff and 5-speed M60 trans (ZF-made S5D 310Z), you use a stock 530iM driveshaft. Large-case diff with 94mm flange and 6-speed M60/M62 trans (Getrag-made S6S 420G), you use a stock 540iM driveshaft. All other combinations require a custom driveshaft.

The E31 clutch works because the S6S 560G happens to have the same spline pattern as the 420G. The S5D 310Z is shared with M50 cars up to 7/92, and possibly others. I don't know offhand whether the later M50-fitment gearbox, the S5D 250G (a Getrag box), has the same splines.

[KVF]

https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...=189921&page=2

That is an older but interesting and informative thread on the transmission & flywheel subject. Post 26 verifies using an e36 328i clutch kit in conjunction with the JB Racing e39 flywheel in the e34 530i trans, so the S5D 310Z & S5D 250G would appear to have same spline pattern AND the 6 speed flywheel appears ok for use in the S5D 250G.

I'm trying to find a 280mm clutch with the smaller S5D 310Z spline pattern, to pair with the JB Racing e31/39 aluminum flywheel I have, but I'm not having much luck. I'm going to see if clutch masters can make one for less than the cost of buying a 6 speed and custom driveshaft.


Oh, and yes, I heard of the same potential interference issues with the lower timing cover while researching this swap, but there they were mated together perfectly on this motor. /shrug
I'm pumped that I'll be able to use my upper B30 covers in OEM fashion for the 3 reasons you mentioned.

[KVF]

Ok, so I know I'm primarily documenting for my own purposes, but just in case someone else is also searching...

The M60B30 upper timing covers "do not" adequately fit the M62B44 (non TU) engine. While they look like they line up well, the lowest pair of mounting bolts/holes in the face of the cover are about 1/4 of an inch to low. You can't use them in combination with the other 2 sets of holes/bolts.

Equally as important, the left/passenger side cover misaligns the timing chain tensioner so that it does not properly line up with the timing chain guide lever.

I was totally looking forward to a completely stock looking case cover conversion, but have gone back to the Frankenstein conversion for the sake of functionality.


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[moroza]

Equally as important, the left/passenger side cover misaligns the timing chain tensioner so that it does not properly line up with the timing chain guide lever.

Yes, this issue with the tensioner is what I'd forgotten about. It would work if you swapped timing chains, but that ends up needing the heads as well, by which point you're building an M60B44. M60 heads would cure the first issue with bolt holes as well.

[kouks]

Just went thru this thread.

Hopefully you have the electronic part figured out already with the DME and obd1/2 conversion.

For all your engine issues, if you have not already done so, search the e38 forum here. There is plenty of information on this engine. I have rebuilt mine (top end) and done two sets of chains on this type motor.

A five speed may not be able to handle this engine, most of the e38 group does the 6 speed conversion, although the 5HP24 auto trans usually mated to the engine is a 5 speed trans.

The engine produces 296hp (new), not much more than the M60. The engine does have an issue with timing chains, but since you are already redoing them, you'll be good. Most timing guides fail at the 120-150k mileage point.

Good Luck!

[KVF]

Thanks for the information. The motor is back together and in time. I'm just waiting on a few small gaskets and manifold studs to get it all back in the car this weekend.

The only electronics issue I'm nervous about at this point is EWS. I have the ECU that was programmed to run this engine via OBDI tune, but the previous owner doesn't know if EWS was overridden or if it'll essentially hang up looking for his key. Worse case I have send out the ECU for programming...

I think the transmission will be ok. There's a number of people running this pairing without issue. My concern is the open differential...


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[KVF]

Forgive me for posting before searching, but here's the newest question.

Can I run the M62B44 engine with my M60B30 ECU w/B44 chip/tune?

I ask because the engine cranked and pumped fuel with the ECU that came with the engine, but it never fired. After checking all connections and sensors it still did not fire (cranked happily).

I noticed that the CEL stayed illuminated the entire time it cranked and I thought I read someplace that this indicates a communication failure between ECU and key.

In any event, I plugged back up my M60B30 ECU with TMS chip/tune (for the M60B30). The car fired right up... At that point I realized I was probably stupid for even have tried that and shut it down even though it seemed to be running well...

Can I just swap chips or does the EWS issue get coded into the chip?

Thanks!!


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[Billyj]

A note on transmission strength, torque and shock loading are generally what kill transmissions and parts in general. If you're not using some two step launch control, drag tires, drag racing or generally abusive stuff you should be a ok


On your engine start issue, when it was cranking did you have fuel pressure? Can you hook up a computer and see the status of your ews? It's easy with an autologic if you happen to have access

[KVF]

Thanks for the reply Billyj. The only computer I have isn't OBDI compatible.

However, I am very confident that the car was receiving fuel on the new ECU because 1. the plugs were moist with fuel when I pulled them and 2. the car started "immediately" when I plugged in the old ECU which would have needed to crank up some fuel pressure if the other ECU had not (the car was sitting with fuel rails disconnected for months prior).

I'm just figuring that since the engine actually runs on my old ECU that I should be looking to merely swap in the chip from new ECU or have a new chip made for my old ECU.

I don't understand why the new ECU would crank and supply fuel but not fire... The CEL light stayed lit while cranking and I know that's not supposed to happen.

Thanks for any additional insight guys... I'm researching the heck out of all the old EWS1 vs EWS2 threads...



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[AHenry014]

Sounds like an EWS issue. Youll get fuel, but the DME cuts spark when theres an issue. Your 530i DME is/should be a 484 DME. This is EWS2, only used in '95 cars. It features a chip coded for your car due to this EWS. If the 'new' dme with the obd1 chip for the b44, is also a 484 DME, then there's a misalignment issue. The chip in that DME was aligned to the last EWS2 car is was in. Both the 484 dme's (should they both actually be 484's) are identical and can be interchanged with a chip swap, as they are not part of the coding. The chip is the only coded part of the DME. Shoot DUDMD a message with your situation. I am sure he can help you out.

Best case scenario, is if the 'new' DME is an EWS1 404 dme. The only thing to do here would be to snip pin 66 in the DME plug/harness, and fire it up.

Check what each DME is, 404 or 484, and report back.

[KVF]

Great timing as I had just checked the DME's (I'll stop saying ECU) before I left for work.

I think you are exactly correct AHenry. My DME is a 484 and the one supplied is a 404.

However, the previous user doesn't think his e31 had EWS at all. Should I still snip the pin66 wire?


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[AHenry014]

Ah good! You can use the 404 DME and its supplied b44 chip. As stated, i believe just snip pin 66 as noted here (not done this myself personally):
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=695713

its a common misconception that "EWS" means that you have a chip in the key and whatnot. In fact, the early cars had EWSI, while the '95 cars had EWSII. So his e31 had EWS1. Its just semantics at that point, but to keep things accurate....

more info:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ined-in-Detail

- - - Updated - - -

edit: looking at that thread closer, verify yourself that pin 66 is correct. Just need to keep the EWS2 system from communicating with the DME.

[KVF]

Thanks I'll read the links you provided closely.

A wiring harness also came with the engine, so I'll check to see if it already has said pin clipped.


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[moroza]

Yes, an M60 ECU with the right chip will run an M62 correctly. Not only that, but a stock B30 or B40 chip will run a B44, though it won't run quite right at higher throttle angles and will suck gas.

I had the same problem - cranks fine, no start. But IIRC mine was also not firing the injectors, which makes sense as the ECU fires both the coils and the injectors, and if it decides not to do so for security reasons (EWS), I don't think it'd do one but not the other. I solved my problem by using a pre-EWS M60 DME box with a pre-EWS chip. For testing purposes, again, you'll get away with any M60 fuel/ignition map.

[KVF]

Thanks for all the help guys!! I checked in with DUDMD as well and he verified that clipping pin 66 of the DME would get it running. I was a bit weary of it, but figured the DME was useless otherwise, so I clipped the pin.

The car fired right up and seems to be running well. It's been a long road, but just the short test drive was worth it. This motor is so much smoother and more powerful than the M60B30 in every way. I can't wait to log some real miles with it.

Thanks again for all your help!!




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