JimLev, with the very greatest respect, are you really saying that the timing /trigger wheels should be set by a guesstimate, and ignore the proper timing tools and procedure?
I strongly disagree.....
Chris Powell
Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
BMWCCA 274412
German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471
Gootsy, BMW code 34 shows as being "Camshaft Control". I'd trust INPA, and a BMW code, far more than a generic P-code reader and US Government mistranslated charts, because p-codes are grossly inaccurate for BMW diagnostics.
I don't know how much your supercharger install complicates the retiming, but on a normal 540 '99, I can do the timing check / adjustment in half a day.
(Probably a lot faster if you just remove one valvecover and turn the sensor wheel a few degrees. Use the Ouija Protracter... ) Sorry, I couldn't resist)
Chris Powell
Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
BMWCCA 274412
German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471
Alright, and I do believe INPA and my reader are both correct they just refer to the code in different ways.
The supercharger manages to make things a little more extensive though.
I'd probably spend about a week doing the whole job because I really like to take my time to ensure I do everything right.
I'll also probably get some new rebuilt vanos units to swap in while I have everything apart just to make it that much more worth my while as I mentioned before.
If I do decide to go ahead and do the whole timing procedure it probably wont be until the beginning of June anyway.
I'll definitely still try to compare those commanded vs actual angles and keep trying to rule out any other possible causes.
Meanwhile I'll keep driving it as it is, haven't had any issues so I don't see the harm. I'll also get some other peoples opinions as well, might even take it by the dealership and see what they suggest.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
I've helped at least 3 guys with this code after they had about 10K miles on new guides. They all double checked the timing with good tools and said it was right on.
They did all the swapping of parts just like Gootsy is doing and nothing worked. I wasn't there so I didn't observe how they did it. I sent them all a video I made on how to time a 540tu which they said they followed.
That's when I told them to score the trigger wheel and turn it CW a few deg. It fixed the code for all of them.
Maybe their tools had a deg or 2 of error in them, I don't know.
INPA showing a BMW FC 34 and P0022 are basically the same, B2 intake cam over advanced.
With the cams and flywheel locked, the static timing should be correct. That only leaves the vanos and trigger wheel as suspects.
Wait a minute.
If my "static timing" is correct. Would I be able to just pull off the bank 2 valve cover and upper timing cover and mount the trigger wheel jig and adjust just the bank 2 trigger wheel like that?
Because I do believe my overall timing is correct, if it weren't I'd have codes on both banks right?
This would save me a heck of a lot of time and make things much easier if If I can do it this way. Then I wont have to deal with all of the supercharger stuff that's over on the passenger side of the car in the way of the valve cover and timing cover.
What do you guys think?
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
You could do what you said, you would still need to set the cylinder 1 to TDC, lock the flywheel, and put the cam lock blocks on bank 2 cams.
To do what I posted above you would only need to remove the bank 2 valve cover. That will give you access to the 24mm nut that holds the trigger wheel on.
When you put the timing covers on were you sure you had the tops of them flush with the tops of the head?
What timing tools are you using?
Also what guide did you follow when you timed the engine?
Last edited by JimLev; 04-25-2017 at 09:34 AM.
I like that option if it is in fact just the trigger wheel. But I would take the bank 2 upper timing cover off as well so I can mount the jig for the trigger wheel.
I'm pretty sure the timing covers are flush with the top of the heads, what does that have to do with anything though? Are you thinking if it wasn't the camshaft position sensor could be slightly out of place or something?
But the timing tool kit I have is from Bavarian Auto, I couldn't tell you who makes it but it's one of the nicer ones that pretty much identical to the one used in the Beisan Systems guide.
I followed the official BMW guide along with the Beisan Systems guide and also referenced some videos.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
Yes, it the upper cover wasn't flush it could account for a small error.
Sure, pop the upper timing cover off, bolt on your jig, and see what your trigger wheel shows.
The jig itself (if it's the same one I have) has a little bit of slack and can be wiggled around a bit before you tighten it down, which is another error point.
If you find that the wheel is dead nuts on I'd still turn it a few degrees CW, otherwise you'll still have the code.
If you want to watch another timing video, here's mine.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...a-540tu-engine
Good luck, keep us posted.
Last edited by JimLev; 04-25-2017 at 04:15 PM. Reason: added link
Yea if I remember correctly my jig is the same way.
I think that's what I'll end up doing though but it wont be until like the first week in June.
I'm still going to try and get some other peoples opinions on the situation though meanwhile.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
So I decided to take the car to emissions inspection today because why not.
I failed of course but according to them the code is P0021...
I just now realized that my code reader is giving me the code number in hex, so 22, but the OBDII code is P0021 I guess.
Last edited by Gootsy; 04-25-2017 at 07:00 PM.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
P0021 is still a BMW FC 34 referring to bank 2.
Different code reader can show different code for the same issue.
p0021 reads as "over advanced". P0022 shows as "over retarded"...sure would be difficult to know which way to twist your sensor wheel, in order to fool the DME into thinking you'd actually reset the timing correctly.
Look, p-codes are garbage, for diagnosing BMWs, and your timing is incorrectly set, or the vanos or solenoid on bank 2 isn't working correctly. I don't know which, because you haven't watched actual vs. commanded angles.
Setting the timing, or the cam sensor wheels by guessing at an unknown number of degrees, and then guessing just what mark you want to make on the wheel, to signify that angle, and then guessing at which direction you want to turn the wheel, is really silly.
BMW has given very specific directions, and very precise tools for setting the timing on the M62TU. I have timed perhaps two dozen of these, over the years.
One has set the BMW code as you quoted, and when I rechecked the timing per correct procedure, I found enough slop on the driver's side to allow the crankshaft to be "off" one tooth, with all tools locked in. {Of course, if you PRECISELY follow directions, this slop ends up where it belongs, on bank 1, the tensioner side.....I wiggled stuff around that one occasion, thinking that wouldn't matter......I'd done plenty of these, right? }
That was my mistake, I freely admit it. I try to learn from my mistakes, and I doubt I'll ever put the slack on the wrong side of the crankshaft again.
I strongly advise that you remove whatever is necessary to get both upper timing covers off, and redo the timing correctly. You made a mistake, no big deal. But do you really want to play "Spin the Wheel", and find you missed the guesses involved?
I don't know, maybe you like going back in, again and again. I can't do that. If I make a mistake the first time, and send a car away and a timing-related code appears in the customer's hands, I am deeply embarrassed.....and you can be damned sure I will not send that car home again without fixing my mistake.
Chris
Chris Powell
Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
BMWCCA 274412
German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471
Alright so I've done quite a bit of reading since I found out that the code is really P0021 and I've managed to come to a conclusion.
I read through this old thread which was full of helpful information regarding P0021 and P0011 codes.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...Tu-p0011-p0021
First off, the OBDII code is P0021, the hex code that my reader tells me is 22, and the INPA code is a decimal code, 34. All of these codes refer to the same thing with the most specific of them being the OBDII code.
Since I only have the code for bank 2 I'm pretty certain my overall timing is fine I just need to adjust the trigger wheel. The fact that the car drives without issue supports that that overall timing is fine.
When the car runs it's tests on startup if the crank and cam trigger positions are not within roughly 10 degrees (crank) then that code is thrown and it shuts down the vanos. This also explains my loss in low end torque making my supercharged car feel almost like a turbo car.
I also mentioned before how this code was on and off at times and sometimes it would stay away for a while. This is likely due to the position of the trigger wheel being extremely close to where it should be.
So here is my plan:
I'm going to pull just the bank 2 valve cover
I'll lock the crankshaft at TDC with the flywheel pin
I'll install the bank 2 cam blocks (If my overall timing is fine as I suspect then the blocks should slide right on the cams no problem)
Then I plan to slide something through the inspection hole on the timing cover and see if it lines up with the hole on the trigger wheel. If the trigger wheel is properly positioned then these two holes should line up. (So mine should not)
I'll then pull the upper timing cover off and score the trigger wheel just so I know where it was to begin with before I mess with it.
I'm hoping that when I mount up the trigger wheel jig the hole will clearly not line up and all I'll need to do is move the wheel into the correct position to line up with the pin on the jig.
If the trigger wheel hole does line up with the pin on the jig then that's where I may need to slightly adjust the wheel myself. (.062" is apparently the magic number for moving the wheel according to the thread I referenced above)
If Retarded then I will need to turn the wheel clockwise
If Advanced then I will need to turn the wheel counter clockwise
I will of course verify which way I need to go before by checking the adaptation number.
If Positive then it is Retarded
If Negative then it is Advanced
I'll also ensure that the upper timing cover is mounted flush with the head when I reinstall it. (I should be able to get away with reusing all the rubber gaskets, the're all new from when I had it all apart last July.)
Anyway so that's my plan. I know re timing the whole engine is the by the books way to do things but this is worth a try first.
I plan on getting this done over the weekend so we'll see what the result ends up being.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
Good plan Gootsy.
Here are a few things that may have contributed to you getting the code.
1) the B2 vanos wasn't fully retarded when you tightened the center cam bolt.
2) the cam lock blocks may have lifted slightly when you tightened the cam bolt. I use a jig I made to hold the cam blocks down to prevent them from moving.
3) did you manually rotate the engine a few times and then recheck the timing to make sure the trigger wheels lined up.
When I timed it back in July I actually did the procedure 4 times in a row because the cam blocks were lifting slightly and I wanted to be sure they didn't lift at all.
I did not rotate the engine and recheck the timing to make sure the trigger wheels lined up though, I wish I had. I'll definitely be doing that this time if it is just that the trigger wheel doesn't line up with the jig when I get in there.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
Chris Powell
Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
BMWCCA 274412
German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471
Here are the adaptation values I got from the car just now.
Adaptation Values.jpg
It appears that the bank 2 adaptation values are lingering right around 10 degrees crank.
If the P0021 code is set when the cam trigger positions are not within roughly 10 degrees crank then that explains why this code was on and off for me.
So since all the adaptation angles for bank 2 are positive this means that it is retarded and the trigger wheel will need to be tuned clockwise correct?
Getting the car up on stands right now so I'm about to start tearing things apart.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
To me, it appears that you have the chain slop on the bank 2 side, where the tensioner doesn't deal with it. Personally, I wouldn't consider trying to fool the computer by arbitrarily moving the sensor wheel. I would, absolutely, reset the timing properly.
In fact, since the cams do not just "line up", after the engine has run, I don't see how you're going to "fiddle" this anyway.
But hey, JimLev has a lot of experience with this engine, and you have chosen to play the sensor wheel game. I think that's a mistake, but I have been wrong many times.
JimLev is a moderator with ten thousand posts, and that means that he's helped a bunch of people at these forums. While we disagree on this, I'm going to hope that he is correct, for your sake. I still won't ever do it that way, because there's no excuse for a pro intentionally mis-timing an engine.
Chris Powell
Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
BMWCCA 274412
German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471
I'll be sure to check and see if there is any noticeable chain slop on the bank 2 side while I have it apart.
I fully understand that what I'm doing isn't the most professional approach to the situation, granted I'm no pro. But it is a valid option that various other people have had success with.
If it comes down to it I'll go back in to re time the whole engine if this approach doesn't solve the problem. But if it does then I will have saved myself a bunch of time and work.
And what do you mean when you say "the cams do not just line up after the engine has run"? Just not sure what you were getting at with that.
Also those adaptation values I posted do show that bank 2 is in fact retarded correct?
Anyway I've got everything off but the upper timing cover, I'll pull that off tomorrow and make whatever changes are necessary to the trigger wheel and hopefully it will be back together and up and running by Sunday.
Supercharged 2003 540i M Tech
For a second I thought thejlevie and jimlev where both the same person and had two accounts looooool!!! I'm no pro but I do opt in to what Chris has said with my greatest respect too! There's nothing worse then missing a cheeky guess and having that feeling where you have to go back in there and redo the timing! Do it once and do it right! Some people just have to learn the hard way (like me)
C217 S63 AMG S Cabriolet ( Daily )
E87 116i with mild cams, headers, cold air intake making 136 bhp Lol (My Learning Track Car)
E36 328i Sport ( Project in making and future race/track car )
I was reminded of a past thread, where missing oil cap o-rings affected oil pressure and oil warnings.
I'm going to assume that maybe a similar low oil pressure condition is preventing the vanos solenoids from operating properly?
Gootsy, this may well be the problem, can you confirm?
I've been wrenching on the 540tu engines for 17 years.
Maybe I'm wrong too, this has helped at least 3 peeps in the past that had the same exact problem and didn't want to pull everything apart to start from scratch.
- - - Updated - - -
Of course not, how many of the "quick fixes" shown on the forum are?
Most do not have all of the factory tools to do repairs the "factory way".
I'd venture to say that the techs at the dealers have plenty of short cuts they take to beat the flat rate times and charge flat rate prices.
Will the techs at the dealers replace the vanos o-rings? No, they will only sell you a new vanos unit.
Last edited by JimLev; 04-30-2017 at 10:35 AM.
I think you may be thinking about a missing #5 o-ring on the lower section of the center post of the i6 oil filter housing.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_1542
Last edited by JimLev; 04-30-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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