Considering a wheel and tire upgrade for my e36 track car

[adept]

Hoping you guys could help educate me on wheels and tires. I've done a lot of reading on the web/forums, and just looking to get more opinions.

I'm currently running BBS CH 17x8.5 ET38 wheels with Michelin PSS 245/40/17 tires. I may be needing to replacing the tires very soon so this may be a nice time to implement an upgrade. I don't have any real complaints with my setup... but it would be nice to upgrade if it's worth it.

The BBS CH rims weigh 22.25 lbs. I've been looking into APEX ARC-8s and it would be really nice to get the 17x9.5 ET35 wheels (16.95 lbs). However, it may be easier to fit the 17x9 ET30 wheels up front. Whatever I do I'd really like to stick with a square setup. I'm thinking of 255/40/17.

My questions are:

• Is it worth it to upgrade the wheels? That would be ~5 lbs of unsprung weight per wheel. Conversely, would it be better to save my money for the "driver mod"?
• What should I expect by upgrading the tire width from 245 to 255? Anyone out there with personal experience increasing width by this small amount?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Pelican Parts]

Really nice looking M3 man - that's kind of a toss up for me. Eliminating 20 pounds is def something, esp for a track car. I don't know what types of upgrades you've done, but I'm one of those guys that's huge on suspension - if I can add another bar or brace and gain something, I'm all for it. So, if there are any that you're missing, I'd buy/upgrade those instead of the rims. If you're happy with the suspension and overall quality of the car, then start tweaking additional weight. Just my 2 cents...let us know what you end up deciding upon. Happy holidays!


-Dmitry

[MINIz guy]

I don't think there is a huge advantage in your case to save ~5 per wheel. You aren't doing time trials or W2W, plus your BBS' are strong and in a good size.

Why not just move to a different tire with more grip? Jumping up from the PSS to something at the 200TW mark will make the biggest difference. You have all the choices in the world for 2017 (Bridgestone, BFG, Dunlop, Hankook, Maxxis, Nexen, Federal, probably more I forgot about). You can go to a 255 on a 8.5" wheel too, it will be slightly pinched so the feel may be more squishy depending on what tire you get.

[aeronaut]

255's (especially in more track oriented compounds) can easily, will likely, need a fender roll in the rear (depending on rim size & ET, suspension, spring rate, etc).

[Pharaohe36]

I'm running the 17x9.5 et35 ARC8 and I have no rubbing issues upfront (running -4° camber for track days) only issue is a rub in the rear so you'll have to seriously roll or grind your inner fenders. Running 245/40/17 RE71R.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TXBDan]

Your wheels are fine. I'd slap some NT01s on there and enjoy a decent grip upgrade for track.

[irollt5r]

How much track experience do you have, and what run group are you in?

You definitely don't need to run anything wider than a 17x8.5" and probably your next best tire choice (after running the PSS) would be to move to something like Dunlop ZII Star Specs, Hankook RS3 (or the new RS4), Bridgestone RE-71R, or BFG Rivals. 255 tire is width is not necessary and you should run at least a 9" wheel with that size. If you REALLY want to you could get the APEX wheels in 17x9" and put a 245 tire on them. I ran some pretty fast laps in a race prepared Z3 2.5 on 17x9 APEX wheels with 245 Dunlop ZII SS...on par with many cars running R-compounds.

[adept]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the input. I really appreciate getting your opinions on this.

Really nice looking M3 man - that's kind of a toss up for me. Eliminating 20 pounds is def something, esp for a track car. I don't know what types of upgrades you've done, but I'm one of those guys that's huge on suspension - if I can add another bar or brace and gain something, I'm all for it. So, if there are any that you're missing, I'd buy/upgrade those instead of the rims. If you're happy with the suspension and overall quality of the car, then start tweaking additional weight. Just my 2 cents...let us know what you end up deciding upon. Happy holidays!


-Dmitry

My suspension is in top-shape, so I don't see any need there. I have been considering getting rid of my more street-oriented KW V1 coilovers for something more track oriented though.

I'm running the 17x9.5 et35 ARC8 and I have no rubbing issues upfront (running -4° camber for track days) only issue is a rub in the rear so you'll have to seriously roll or grind your inner fenders. Running 245/40/17 RE71R.

Your feedback mirrors all the other things I've read on the web. Not only do you say that you are rubbing, but it also looks like you may be a little higher off the ground than I am. Hard to tell since you are making a turn away from the camera in your picture. What's your ride height like?

I don't think there is a huge advantage in your case to save ~5 per wheel. You aren't doing time trials or W2W, plus your BBS' are strong and in a good size.

Why not just move to a different tire with more grip? Jumping up from the PSS to something at the 200TW mark will make the biggest difference. You have all the choices in the world for 2017 (Bridgestone, BFG, Dunlop, Hankook, Maxxis, Nexen, Federal, probably more I forgot about). You can go to a 255 on a 8.5" wheel too, it will be slightly pinched so the feel may be more squishy depending on what tire you get.

Your wheels are fine. I'd slap some NT01s on there and enjoy a decent grip upgrade for track.

How much track experience do you have, and what run group are you in?

You definitely don't need to run anything wider than a 17x8.5" and probably your next best tire choice (after running the PSS) would be to move to something like Dunlop ZII Star Specs, Hankook RS3 (or the new RS4), Bridgestone RE-71R, or BFG Rivals. 255 tire is width is not necessary and you should run at least a 9" wheel with that size. If you REALLY want to you could get the APEX wheels in 17x9" and put a 245 tire on them. I ran some pretty fast laps in a race prepared Z3 2.5 on 17x9 APEX wheels with 245 Dunlop ZII SS...on par with many cars running R-compounds.

I'm starting to lean towards your advice, and starting to consider only making a tire change. I have ~15 track event days of experience and I'm running in high intermediate. Not sure if I want to make the plunge to R-compound tires... is there a good in-between? Irollt5r - is that why you suggested the tires you did (as a gradual step up from the Michelin PSS I'm used to)?

[MINIz guy]

The Maxxis VR1 and Dunlip Z2* are good street tires for the track. 200TW but they wear like rocks and handle heat well for continuous lapping. While the Bridgestone RE-71 and the BFG Rival S are stickier, they won't handle continuous lapping and will fall off towards the end of a 20 minute session.

Dunlop is coming out with the Z3 and Hankook just announced their RS4. There are no data points on how they are though.

[irollt5r]

I'm starting to lean towards your advice, and starting to consider only making a tire change. I have ~15 track event days of experience and I'm running in high intermediate. Not sure if I want to make the plunge to R-compound tires... is there a good in-between? Irollt5r - is that why you suggested the tires you did (as a gradual step up from the Michelin PSS I'm used to)?

Exactly! ;-) I always recommend holding off on R-compounds until moving up into the advanced run group.

And there's a reason that endurance racing series are running ZII Star Specs!

Also, MINIz guy is correct in his assessment of these 200TW tires. I would say that the original BFG Rival held up better to continuous lapping than the newer, stickier Rival S.

[Pharaohe36]

This is my current ride height. No issues with rubbing after a grind of the rears fenders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brake_L8]

Save your money, keep the wheels you have, and do a tire upgrade whenever you wear out the PSS. Use the rest of your not-spent cash to get more track time Even if you are getting into higher run groups and going faster and faster, an 8.5" wheel is plenty wide for the tires you could run on a competitive level. I and many friends have all done very well on 8.5's with a 245 tire in years past. I've even turned competitive street-tire laps in Time Trial on my heavy-as-hell DSII wheels with old RS3's. You aren't at the point where you need to optimize unsprung weight so put the money where it will make a bigger difference.

Plus, BBS CH are gorgeous wheels.

I bought a set of ARC-8's recently and got the 17x9", as they're wide enough for any tire I'd run anytime soon, between TT and W2W stuff.

[XXLBIMMER]

Price out the tires before you go and make changes. Sometimes the difference between a 245 and 255 is 40 or 50 bucks a tire. That could be 200 a set, which will get to be significant as you increase track time and need to replace tires sooner i.e. flat spotted set from over braking etc.

[adept]

Save your money, keep the wheels you have, and do a tire upgrade whenever you wear out the PSS. Use the rest of your not-spent cash to get more track time Even if you are getting into higher run groups and going faster and faster, an 8.5" wheel is plenty wide for the tires you could run on a competitive level. I and many friends have all done very well on 8.5's with a 245 tire in years past. I've even turned competitive street-tire laps in Time Trial on my heavy-as-hell DSII wheels with old RS3's. You aren't at the point where you need to optimize unsprung weight so put the money where it will make a bigger difference.

Plus, BBS CH are gorgeous wheels.

I bought a set of ARC-8's recently and got the 17x9", as they're wide enough for any tire I'd run anytime soon, between TT and W2W stuff.

This was a really concise and convincing argument. Thanks a lot for your input.

Price out the tires before you go and make changes. Sometimes the difference between a 245 and 255 is 40 or 50 bucks a tire. That could be 200 a set, which will get to be significant as you increase track time and need to replace tires sooner i.e. flat spotted set from over braking etc.

You're right... thanks as well. If I keep making those flat-spotting mistakes it could get expensive and cost me 1 or 2 days a year.

[Brake_L8]

This was a really concise and convincing argument. Thanks a lot for your input.

Very welcome! Driver mod is the most effective for a looooong while. I have been competitive all season in 2016 with 8.5" wheels, no aero, the stock 3.23 LSD (when most others either have the automatic E36 M3 3.38 or a Diffsonline "built" 3.64), stock sway bars, etc. I grew a lot this season as a driver and got significantly faster. Having better tires helped a bit, but learning how to push myself and push the car even harder got me a lot farther along. Don't get me wrong, you should run quality parts and tires are one place to not skimp, but replacing the tires on your existing wheels is going to be the most cost-effective given where you are in your track career.

[EzJ 328is]

I agree with everyone else, just get a better tire and more seat time. If you do end up replacing your wheels down the line, check out D-force LTW5s, or the apex ARC8. I run the 17x8.5 et40 LTW5 with 245/40r17. I have no issues with them at all. The set only costs about a grand, and you'll definitely feel a difference. They weigh about 16lbs in that size, and you feel that when cornering and accelerating. I really enjoy the turn in feel with my set up.

[Nate94]

This is my current ride height. No issues with rubbing after a grind of the rears fenders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seriously considering this fitment. What are your DD alignment specs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JBasham]

duplicate post

[JBasham]

It's just me, but I like to spend my wheel and tire budget on getting more sets, not on getting my wheel weights down a few pounds or getting my width up a half-inch. For the same reason, I try to use 17s instead of 18s and 18s instead of 19s, it keeps the budget tilted towards more sets.

For HPDE and club open practice days, I feel like I get more out of having the choice of different tires for the conditions, then I would out of having "compromise" tires in a slightly larger size. Right now for me that means a set of streetable summer high performance tires that I can use in the rain or DD, a set of sticky-but-not-slicks like RE71r or Federal FZ-201, and a set of outright slicks.

I made the switch to sticky-but-not-slicks at about the point you're at now and it worked out pretty well. I didn't use traction control and I also drove at the track on rainy days, and did skidpad sessions on most every track day.

I'm not pushing this as a strategy for anybody, but I have enjoyed what I got out of it.

Buying ARC-8s in popular sizes is something I do sometimes because (1) they look great (2) they are good track wheels and (3) they're easy to resell if I change cars. Other times, I just get the TRMotorsport wheels, which cover (2), but cost about 40-45% less.

[tripitz]

Anyone able to get Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's to work without rubbing on a lower car with a minor fender roll? I'm currently using RE71Rs in 245 17, and they are according to the spec sheet 9.8" wide. The PSC2s are 10.2" wide. Debating if it will work with the extra width. Just looking at different tire choices out there and exploring.

[pMak26]

FWIW, 17" x 9" TRMotorsport MT1-R wheels are 16.3lb.

And I have a set for sale