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Thread: At what power levels are you finding it's time to swap out your manual transmissions?

  1. #1
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    Question At what power levels are you finding it's time to swap out your manual transmissions?

    Recently someone told me a ZF or Getrag manual transmission in a BMW is more akin to a Mustang's T5. Considering people break those things with stock power, it seems very hard to see the truth in that.
    Last edited by Liquidity; 12-09-2016 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #2
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    Seems like most people in the 5-600whp range have no problems with the zf 5 speed.

    I bet it has a ton to do with traction. Really sticky tires and drag racing and you'll break more easily. A super quick spooling turbo will put more stress on your trans.

    With street tires, the zf 5 speed has held 800+ without problem..

  3. #3
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    weight is going to be a big factor as well.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
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    I think torque is a bigger factor here. 700wtq is the number id guess.

    And agreed weight is a huge facor.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by vollosso View Post
    I think torque is a bigger factor here. 700wtq is the number id guess. And agreed weight is a huge facor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I say it's the torque, 100%

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    I broke one with rear wheel torque in the 500 - 600 lb range. They are pretty reliable to more than twice their 320 NM or 236 ft lb at the crank rating. Stay off the drag strip, use street tires not R compounds, and it should hold even more for a while. If you have big torque, find a spare.

  7. #7
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    I'd say wheel hop is also going to be a factor in driveline life. Damn you wheel hop (shakes fist in air).
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  8. #8
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    Oh wow well that's much more than a T5. People put the limit of the T5 around 400 - and that's only if you baby it, no hard shifts, smooth launches. Very good information to have. Thank you.

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    Okay, I'm writing here because Liquidity felt the need to PM me and then block my reply.


    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidity
    Oh, I created a thread just for you, so next time you want to tell someone*that a ZF or Getrag gearbox in a BMW is like a T5, you can remember this.*

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-transmissions
    Dear Liquidity, please tell me you didn't go through all that effort just to "prove" me wrong/make yourself feel better?

    By the replies I gather that the stated torque limit (highly dependent on vehicle weight and tires) is "pretty reliable to more than twice their 320 NM or 236 ft lb at the crank rating" (~450-500). Higher torque numbers involved "street tires" and care (or to use your words "that's only if you baby it, no hard shifts, smooth launches").

    I've personally seen a T5 live behind a 450 ft/lb small block Ford, but ehhh... after being presented with more info I'm willing to agree the BMW trans is stronger than a T5. When I made my "comparable to a T5, I went off of the listed torque rating. With that said, your statement that the BMW transmissions are "built like tanks" isn't by any means valid based on the responses here.

    So Mr Liquidity, personally, I'll keep my T56 (having personally stressed one with 650 ft/lb in a 3400lb car with slicks).... but then I'm a "T56 fan boy"

    As others said in your thread (before you deleted it), you really need to toughen up (I'd say grow up). You acted (and continue to act) like a little kid. You got butthurt, threw a tantrum, and deleted your thread because others agreed your decision to use a BMW transmission (behind an LSx) instead of a T56 was not the best choice. I'll be sure to watch for your next iteration.
    Last edited by V8Z4; 12-13-2016 at 09:14 PM.
    Chris

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    Liquidity seems like someone who takes internet car forums too seriously. From what I read in that thread and this thread, I doubt one trans is much better than the other. I am one of those guys who has had a ZF320 behind a 500lb rwtq turbo S52 for 6 years, and broken one during that time. However, I am considering a T56 Magnum (Ford version) now that I should be over 600 lbs rwtq. There are certainly a lot more Ford hotrodders than BMW hotrodders, and I often look at what the domestics are doing.

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    What's funny is nobody told Liquidity he was "wrong" to use a BMW transmission behind an LSx, just that there were lots of reasons not to do it.
    Chris

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    Powerglide > or any automatic for that reason. Manuel transmission is for fun factor if you want speed (time slips) you need an auto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mklock View Post
    Powerglide > or any automatic for that reason. Manuel transmission is for fun factor if you want speed (time slips) you need an auto.
    ... unless you want to consider sequential manual transmissions...
    Chris

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    Yeah but who's ready to drop 10K into a transmission. That's the starting point....pretty much excluded to professional race teams. Although I would love to have one (to race) maybe not daily.
    Last edited by Mklock; 12-14-2016 at 12:50 AM.

  15. #15
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    You have no idea the misery of noise and drive train carnage a sequential manual would bring to your life.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

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    Yeah I think I have a good idea, as why I said to race hehe. Watched way to much rally to listen to that every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by V8Z4 View Post
    What's funny is nobody told Liquidity he was "wrong" to use a BMW transmission behind an LSx, just that there were lots of reasons not to do it.
    As I recall Liquidity is running a 5.3L V8. Unless its modded, the ZF320 might be fine for a while. Probably would have been better to go with a trans that did not need adapting but since he already had the plate made, he might as well use it and see how things go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mklock View Post
    Yeah but who's ready to drop 10K into a transmission. That's the starting point....pretty much excluded to professional race teams. Although I would love to have one (to race) maybe not daily.
    Oh come on, it's only money...priorities.jpg ... j/k


    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    As I recall Liquidity is running a 5.3L V8. Unless its modded, the ZF320 might be fine for a while. Probably would have been better to go with a trans that did not need adapting but since he already had the plate made, he might as well use it and see how things go.
    That's been everyone's response to Liquidity's decision. Yeah it will "work" but (by his own account) it's going to cost him almost as much as having bought a T56 and he is going to have some issues. At a minimum he is going to need to figure out how to add a VSS for the GM ECU. Others mentioned that the location of the engine will likely be different (when compared to a T56 build) so headers and motor mounts are likely to be custom, and he may well run into crossmember fitment issues. So in the end, it's unlikely he will manage to make it work (the guy complained about the cost of buying a T56 transmission mount so it doesn't sound like he has the ability to build his own).
    Last edited by V8Z4; 12-14-2016 at 09:33 AM.
    Chris

  19. #19
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    My t56 was fun until about the 3rd broken diff and 2.2 60fts.

    Sold that POS and bought my self a th400. yeehaw boys.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    My t56 was fun until about the 3rd broken diff and 2.2 60fts.

    Sold that POS and bought my self a th400. yeehaw boys.
    What diff?

    Why th400 vs 700r4/4l60e?

  21. #21
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    all medium cases. th400 because i want a reverse manual valve body and trans brake.

    Im also doing a big case swap this winter too
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  22. #22
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    how does the 400 fit in the E36? I had to hammer a little bit on the firewall on mine and had to cut away some of the stock trans mount rail on the passenger side. No room for a blanket though without more cutting.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    all medium cases. th400 because i want a reverse manual valve body and trans brake.

    Im also doing a big case swap this winter too
    "medium case" is 188mm and "big case" is 210mm right? What's the HP limit of the 210 mm stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by V8Z4 View Post
    What's the HP limit of the 210 mm stuff?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    how does the 400 fit in the E36? I had to hammer a little bit on the firewall on mine and had to cut away some of the stock trans mount rail on the passenger side. No room for a blanket though without more cutting.
    Fits good. Better then the t56. No beating, or no more then the t56 and i cant remember if i had to for the t56.

    The t56, you had to have the bell housing on the motor when installing the swap (making it so the motor has to come out to do a clutch), but the TH400 can be installed with the motor in the car. So far it fits better then the t56.

    Im currently switching over to a virgin chassis, so ill know soon if i have to smash some things to make it fit, but i dont think i will have to.

    But i might smash things anyways just to make it seem more difficult. Who doesnt like smashing things?
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
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