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Thread: growling f10

  1. #51
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    yup, each chapter is different in its makeup of interests, participating members, etc....

    modern cars are complex machines - regardless of the make, but there's certainly a modifier with high-end cars like BMW.
    being as a large chunk of my educational background is in historical analysis, i'm reminded of what the DIY/enthusiast community thought when the e36 came out, "...it's the death of DIY maintenance and mechanics." i'm paraphrasing, but there were many letters and articles written in that era with that sentiment. so, in some ways, it's the same today with more complex vehicles - eventually, it all evens out.
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  2. #52
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    If the code was cleared, and then recurs, the problem is still present. There is no memory of a code once it's cleared. Similarly, if the CEL was out, and then reappeared, it means the DME saw the same problem again, not that it remembered the code hadn't been cleared.

    Have you tried using your stethoscope without the metal probe, perhaps with a longer piece of tubing attached? Air noises can best be found with an open hose rather than the metal probe.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  3. #53
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    Two short trips today and no more code. I still think it was worth it to leave the filler cap off as I got to watch both VANOS ends and the timing chain spinning smoothly. What's amazing is how much of a sucking sound comes from the intake to the air cleaner whenever the throttle is depressed - especially noticeable at lower speeds.
    It's not a real stethoscope - just a cheap piece from the local Advance Auto. However, I'll ask our doctor about giving me an old one when I see him tomorrow.

  4. #54
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    The cheap stethoscope is just fine....that's all I have, and all that I've ever seen any tech use. Doctors listen to soft tissue, nothing I've seen on a car.

    That intake noise is why sellers of "cold air intakes" convince people that their car actually becomes faster. In truth, these nonsense cone filters often cost horsepower, feed hot air to the engine, and suck water in, in inclement conditions. Sorry, I digress....

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  5. #55
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    2011 535i
    After 5 starts' absence, P112F is back. To try to generalize, it has only appeared after car has sat for 1 to 4 hours; upon erasure and restart it does not reappear; and it doesn't appear after a cold start. I'm having a hard time believing that this code is not in some way related to my running the engine for about 30 seconds last week while peering through the oil filler to check the timing chain and VANOS.

    Car starts and runs fine: in mixed driving today it delivered 30 mpg while cruising through our small town, along the interstate, on back roads, and through a fast-food delivery cycle. There were several quick bursts to 90 mph to clear heavy interstate traffic, and there were probably 8 or 10 red lights involved. It has never run better or more efficiently. To repeat, the code only appears on startup, and it so far hasn't reappeared after deletion.

    When I was a kid in the late 50's and early 60's, there was a fictional character in "Popular Mechanics" who could always solve the knottiest automotive mysteries. The Magliozzi brothers were into pretty much the same shtick with their weekly "puzzler. Without these comforting examples to cite, I might be getting angry and frustrated by now, even though we all know there's no gain from such an attitude. My earlier allusion to Charles Steinmetz is clanging, since he's the guy who charged Henry Ford $10,000 to troubleshoot a generator. Henry's a distant cousin - far too distant for any of his wealth to have shaken off our family tree.

    One hypothesis involves a sensor that has somehow gotten miscalibrated after the open oil filler event. How does one figure out which sensor is raising the alarm? Is that something that BMW's proprietary diagnostics can achieve? A funny noise on cold start began this misadventure, but there's no way I can sell or trade a car that keeps popping CEL's.

    dirtup [unhappy camper]

  6. #56
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    Check that the oil filler cap has a good seal. I am compelled to insist that if the code is still recurring, the causes still exist.

    Sorry, still gonna need a smoke test.

    Don't get upset....you're too good for that. It's just a car; the newer they are, the more difficult they are/

    Hey, I've got an M5 that I drove 6 days and exploded it. Just paid my 9th payment, replacement engine with misfires, now in pieces. Cars suck, didn't you know?


    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  7. #57
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    2011 535i
    Good call on the cap. Life should be so simple.

    Shortly after "graduating" from BMW CCA to SCCA, I took my M3 to a BMW school. With my student, a Navy carrier jockey, I was running nose-to-tail with Richard John around Summit Point, having a great time. Just after Turn 4 it gave off the horrible sound of valves hitting a piston. Did you know that M3 cranks have to be cryogenically treated after machining? Yeah, you probably did. The first and hardest rule of racing is that if it happens, it's your own fault, period. Not supposed to be like that on the street, though.

    The worst part is having to explain to my wife why we traded the e46 because it was spending too much time in my shop while I trolled the internet for fixes. Heater core, heater core sensor, heater control valve, expansion tank, CCV, lca bushings [frequent], vcg, tcg, ofhg, disa o-ring, on and on. Except for lca refresh, all that stuff started happening after the car was 10 years old. Relatively speaking, it just cost nickels and dimes - plus a fair portion of elbow grease. This car is barely at half that age and mileage!

  8. #58
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    2011 535i
    Ready to diagnose using Reddit's P112F protocol:

    P112F - Manifold Absolute Pressure to Throttle Angle - Too High (Bank 1)
    The fault is recognized when the relationship between the indicated intake manifold pressure and the mass airflow calculated based on throttle-valve angle is not correct
    Potential problem source(s): - Measured value for intake manifold pressure (absolute) too high - Vacuum leak within induction tract/crankcase - Incorrect throttle-valve angle - Pressure sensor defective


    • Check intake system and crankcase for leakage
    • Check throttle valve (contamination, carbon deposits, icing)
    • Check plug and wiring harness between intake- manifold pressure sensor and DME
    • Check plug, wiring harness at electric throttle- valve actuator


    RealOEM shows the intake manifold pressure sensor, but no device labelled "throttle valve" or "electric throttle-valve actuator."

    Could someone please translate "throttle valve"?

    CEL's are becoming more frequent, but there's still no deterioration in performance or mileage. Aftermarket suppliers list over a dozen oil filler caps, but neither they nor dealers with online parts sales show a cap that looks like mine. Parts guy at C-ville BMW has the cap but recommends against buying it [$40+] without smoke testing first.

    It's nice to have a heated shop and an old Tacoma to see us through. tia,

    dirtup

  9. #59
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    Throttle valve is the flap / throttle motor assembly / aka throttle body. Here it is: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1181

    However, the description you're using , I believe, is incorrect. Your mass airflow isn't calculated by the throttle angle, it's measured, very simply, by the MAF sensor. In fact, it can't really be calculated by throttle angle, because you have a valvetronic engine, which uses the valves as individual throttles once the engine is warm, and leaves the throttle open.

    As for the "Pressure Sensor", be aware that there are more than one:
    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_4470 (part 8)
    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1357 (part 24)

    ....and hell, I really thought I remembered finding 3 of them, but maybe that was an N54 , not N55.

    I agree with the guy who advised a smoke test first. If a correctly done smoke test doesn't find a leak, I'd personally throw one of those two MAP sensors at it, and cross your fingers.

    EDIT:

    https://www.ecstuning.com/b-vdo-part...627599042~vdo/

    https://www.ecstuning.com/b-vdo-part...627585493~vdo/

    I'd probably go with the first one, since it's called the MAP, and the other is called the BPS....
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 12-30-2016 at 08:58 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  10. #60
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    Virginia
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    2011 535i
    When disassembling to check the connection for pressure sensor #8 referenced in your post, I discovered that I had not properly seated the intake snorkel at the radiator bulkhead; could the resulting air leak have caused the CEL [I tend to doubt, but thought I'd ask]?

    At this point my plan was to check #8 [and the #24 you mention], replace snorkel and smoke-test. However, since the MAF sensor is right there in the intake tract downstream of the air filter, should I not carefully pull it, inspect the element, and give it a shot of MAF aerosol cleaner?

    Meanwhile, there is oil puddling in a cranny at the driver's side lower corner at the front of the oil filter housing. Should I go ahead replace the gasket between the housing and the oil/water heat exchanger? And finally, what is the top pipe from the exchanger connected to? This is the pipe connected to a hose at the very bottom of the video included above. NB: my 535i does not have an external oil cooler - just the little exchanger. And that is the epicenter of my mystery noise

    tia, dirtup

  11. #61
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    1992 galant vr4,95 M3
    The oil filter housing gasket leak is very common. When you remove the oil filter check for metal shavings. I've seen two N55 engine failures. One the exhaust cam snapped in half. The other a rocker arm popped off on the exhaust side and got lodged underneath the cam, temporarily seizing the engine and shearing off the vanos actuator bolt. Both cars had one thing in common : Recent vanos bolt recall performed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And more importantly. The wording of the generic obd code reader is throwing you down a rabbit hole I believe. Id have to scan the car with ISTA or an autologic but If I recall correctly that P112F code is thrown whenever the DME decides not to make boost to save the engine, it changes the wastegate solenoid duty cycle. If its the same fault I think it is, usually accompanied by other faults like vanos, timing correlation or misfires possibly.

    Its kind of a limp mode if you will. Like I said I'd have to scan the car with ista or autologic but I believe this is the Pcode I'm thinking of.

  12. #62
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    2011 535i
    Well, my N55 has 13k miles on it since VANOS recall, so here's hoping no rocker will dislodge or cam break. Nothing untoward in last oil filter, either.
    The passenger in my e30 M3's engine failure event had a brand new e36 M3 that he asked me to drive. It seemed pretty tame, and I believe my e46 330i with sport package was quicker around Summit Point. Your M3 is probably not stock any more.
    BMW has now fallen out of the top 10 marques in reliability rankings. Small wonder!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Reply to presterone's update: yes, I'm afraid this is going to have to be scanned by a BMW-specific device; no one in my little town has one, so I'll troubleshoot for the obvious maladies and probably wind up at a dealer soon.
    No driving issues at all: the car has full power and is delivering excellent gas mileage.

  13. #63
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    Since the code only appeared after your work, and the code relates to a discrepancy in air measurement, and the snorkel wasn't seated, I'd say there's a damned good chance you've discovered your issue.....as long as the connection you're talking about is after the MAF. Unless you are running an oiled air filter, I wouldn't mess with cleaning the MAF.

    If you're sure that the oil puddle isn't from a recent oil change, then sure, you should do the gaskets of oil filter housing to block, and oil cooler to filter housing. However, while I can usually sneak the oil filter housing on N-52's and the like, I seem to recall that on either the N55 or the N54 I can't sneak the rearward bolt of the housing past the manifold....and of course, you don't want to remove the manifold unless you absolutely have to.

    If you do the housing gasket, be careful removing the hose from head to thermostat, which allows access to one of the housing bolts. The plastic end of this coolant hose has an o-ring seal, and, like the water pipes on M54's, the end piece of the pipe likes to break off.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  14. #64
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    The snorkel is in front of the air filter and thus in front of the MAF. However, I still need to remove the filter base to check the two pressure sensors, and also to install the snorkel more easily.
    How do I take this fastener apart? It's a little plastic and rubber post that both dampens and retains the lower filter box:

    http://imgur.com/a/ttU5R

    - - - Updated - - -

    OK, figured that out, checked the pressure sensors, and reassembled. So far only a short run but no CEL. Got underneath and listened to vacuum pump, which is NOT the source of the offending noise; bottom of oil pan around oil pump drive puts out the same frequency, though. Could be oil pump or timing chain. Oh, well, at least it goes away as the engine warms up. Fingers crossed on the CEL.

  15. #65
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    Oh, sorry. If the snorkle / leak was before the MAF, there will be no change by fixing it. It's always good to put a little dielectric grease or silicone or other lubricant on those rubber bushings which retain the air cleaner box, by the way. It'll make it a whole lot easier to get them off next time...

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  16. #66
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    e46 lca bushings - Meyle I think - come with instructions to use concentrated dishwashing liquid to dis- and re-assemble. Dabbed a little on each post to remove.
    Nothing left now but smoke test.

  17. #67
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    E46 CABs are my very favorite job. Pays 3 hours, I do it in 15 minutes. Soap is great for those, because it all dries up and allows the rubber to lock into place on the arms.. For the little rubber engine cover donuts, you want the rubber to stay lubricated for a year or so 'til you feel like taking it apart again. And you don't have to care too much whether the lubricant is good for the rubber or not, like you do on the CABs. (Doesn't really matter a whole bunch, until you break the plastic because the rubber wouldn't let go...ask me how I know )

    Keep us updated!

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  18. #68
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    Found a good indy nearby; he offered to do a quick scan and found no engine codes - just a few chassis ones related to wheelspin. So I guess the basic OBD tool removes codes completely. Based on my experience, he pulled the charge pipe and found it very oily; what's more, the MAP o-ring had been improperly assembled and deformed. He cleaned MAP, replaced o-ring - all without removing any other pieces. So far no codes. This all took about 10 minutes!
    Next time I'll leave him the car so he can listen to the cold start sounds. Very encouraged.
    dirtup

  19. #69
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    Resurrecting this old thread: same car, same member, same code.

    After visiting with the above mentioned indy tech with BMW diagnostic equipment, I had it explained to me that the "growling" I heard was nothing more than the normal startup protocol of a complex car with multiple intake pathways feeding a complex turbo - and there's even an electric air pump that sometimes fires up as well. So that set of suspicions was put to rest. For the next 2 1/2 years the car behaved normally, telling me when to change oil [I never waited that long] and brake pads. The indy tech also advised that replacing the tranny fluid and filter was a good idea, so we had that done.

    Recently I had begun to notice more and more oil pooling behind the little oil cooler, so I changed the gasket there, and also changed the serpentine belt. I had the OFH gasket on hand but decided not to change it unless leakage could be detected after doing the cooler gasket.

    Then I pulled a colossal bonehead move: left two paper towels in the intake just behind the air filter housing and restarted the car with the towels still there. FWOOMP! The driveline malfunction message immediately appeared, even before I stopped the engine. Luckily, I was able to get an articulated clasping tool down into the turbo inlet pipe far enough to get a grip on the wadded-up towels and carefully retract the wad to where I could grip it with some long pliers and remove it. Virtually none of the paper was ingested by the turbo, although there were a couple of swirled parts of the wad where it touched a turbo wheel. That could have been very ugly, and I feel quite lucky to have escaped worse trouble. [I also used a shop vac before and after retrieving the towels.]

    But old friend P112F is back, along with a brief appearance by P10F3. After a few clears by my basic OBD reader, the charge pressure message is gone, but I suspect P112F [aka Manifold Absolute Pressure] will hang around for a while. As before, I am convinced that the car's computer compares the current intake pressures against recent history and then decides whether to send a fault message. We shall see.

    Meanwhile, the indy tech has gone off to run the Peking to Paris Rally with his favorite customer in a 1939 Buick. He'll be back in a month or so. With any luck this will be ancient history by then.

    dirtup

  20. #70
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    2012 BMW 640i Convert
    The problem is a cracked / defective vent hose
    Part # BMW-11127584128
    FCP Euro ID: 254051

    BMW 2012 640i Convertible

    just change it and you should be fine!
    Last edited by Electrical ST; 05-11-2020 at 06:47 PM.

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