Help with next HPDE car

[MrBlah]

If you are asking about next HPDE cars and think that worrying about safety is crap and only focused on horsepower, maybe you should take a break from NASA and see other HPDEs for a while...

you did not read what I said, maybe I was not clear

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Before you start swapping engines and buying all kids of iffy safety equipment you need to sit down and decide where you want to go after DE. I have seen time and time again that someone builds some crazy car for DE because it will be fun only to get out of DE and the car doesn't class well. At that point you have wasted a ton of time and money for nothing. If you don't have a good plan and an idea of what class you want to run in you will be chasing your tail instead of racing.

You absolute best bang for the buck is an E36. If you have extra cash then go for an E46 as it is your next best contender. In either case don't engine swap or supercharge anything. Build the chassis first with a good quality components and once you are done with that then add power.

honestly I can't see myself ever wheel to wheel racing. If i ever went down that rabbit hole the spec e30 class is by far the biggest and I'm not interested in HPDE'ing in an e30 I've owned a few and I prefer the e36 or E46. TT is an option later, the rules are strict on safety so it's not worth discussing here honestly safety gear is not the topic I need a car first. I'm not interested in trophies so what class I'm in is not a big deal if I did go to TT, and even if I change my mind 2-3 years down the road I could swap stock parts back on to get under points/classing issues

I'm also not interested in a crazy fast car the consumables and speed/risk are too much, I could just go buy a Z06 if I wanted that kinda car

[Emre]

I'm really only looking for ideas on the next car I'm not sure why everyone got off topic on safety crap for a hypothetical car I do not have yet.

If you're fast enough to be worried about keeping up with the fast guys in Solo, then you're probably going fast enough to need "safety crap." Many of us (myself included) have learned that lesson the hard way.

"fun from investment", or FFI, so is 6000 into the mini and run it a few years better FFI or put it in the E36/E46 m3 piggy bank and switch platforms

For me, it doesn't make sense to build "the ultimate HPDE car" because once you're Advanced/Solo/Instructor you'll eventually get bored of HPDE and want to go racing. Might as well just buy a used racecar and be done with it. As an added bonus, you'll get all the safety equipment for free. And if you ever decide to move on, you'll probably be able to sell it without significant loss.

[MrBlah]

If you're fast enough to be worried about keeping up with the fast guys in Solo, then you're probably going fast enough to need "safety crap." Many of us (myself included) have learned that lesson the hard way.

For me, it doesn't make sense to build "the ultimate HPDE car" because once you're Advanced/Solo/Instructor you'll eventually get bored of HPDE and want to go racing. Might as well just buy a used racecar and be done with it. As an added bonus, you'll get all the safety equipment for free. And if you ever decide to move on, you'll probably be able to sell it without significant loss.

you are not reading what I'm typing you just proved it again

[Emre]

honestly I can't see myself ever wheel to wheel racing. If i ever went down that rabbit hole the spec e30 class is by far the biggest and I'm not interested in HPDE'ing in an e30 I've owned a few and I prefer the e36 or E46.

Spec E36 isn't a bad choice. Big fields in many regions.

you are not reading what I'm typing you just proved it again

Alright. Do whatever you want.

[MrBlah]

Spec E36 isn't a bad choice. Big fields in many regions.

I'm really not interested in wheel to wheel racing the risk is just too high for me to wanna do that.

that said I just checked seasons points, spec e36 does not seem to exist here. you can see the season points here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Ztg/edit#gid=0

[boostedinaz]

honestly I can't see myself ever wheel to wheel racing. If i ever went down that rabbit hole the spec e30 class is by far the biggest and I'm not interested in HPDE'ing in an e30 I've owned a few and I prefer the e36 or E46. TT is an option later, the rules are strict on safety so it's not worth discussing here honestly safety gear is not the topic I need a car first. I'm not interested in trophies so what class I'm in is not a big deal if I did go to TT, and even if I change my mind 2-3 years down the road I could swap stock parts back on to get under points/classing issues

I'm also not interested in a crazy fast car the consumables and speed/risk are too much, I could just go buy a Z06 if I wanted that kinda car

I guess but this sounds like a misguided project. Good luck.

[MrBlah]

I guess but this sounds like a misguided project. Good luck.

what is? Lots of people HPDE in e36's and E46's I've gotten some good advice in this thread

[putnampunk]

honestly I can't see myself ever wheel to wheel racing. If i ever went down that rabbit hole the spec e30 class is by far the biggest and I'm not interested in HPDE'ing in an e30 I've owned a few and I prefer the e36 or E46.

See pyramid of speed. A lot of people end up chasing that dragon. I do HPDEs to be better at racing but would miss W2W if I gave it up entirely vs. just filling the time between races with track days...

What is wrong with E30s? Requires improving the loose nut behind the wheel? Or because it is a robust design and simple to work on?

And you do know there is Spec E36 and Spec E46, right?

I'm also not interested in a crazy fast car the consumables and speed/risk are too much, I could just go buy a Z06 if I wanted that kinda car

Yet you want to dump $6k into a Mini for more power to be better suited in the NASA arms race??

Maybe your "next car" is just your current one with a different outlook in what you are doing at track days and actual goals don't require more speed to keep up, but maybe some prudent safety gear and more seat time.

you did not read what I said, maybe I was not clear

you are not reading what I'm typing you just proved it again

You're not clear. You seem to be saying contradictory things and fighting against advice that comes as the answer to the questions you ask. I've seen this "help me keep up at HPDE" thread many times and people who have BTDT say what we're saying each time.

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I'm really not interested in wheel to wheel racing the risk is just too high for me to wanna do that.

What risk? Money? Crapcan is cheaper than building a HPDE champion car and potentially backing it into a wall. Safety? Trying to get HPDE world champion in a LS swapped E36 in NASA traffic with compromised safety setup seems worse than racing with proper gear and a strict organization to uphold rules and avoid incidents.

[boostedinaz]

what is? Lots of people HPDE in e36's and E46's I've gotten some good advice in this thread

Has nothing to do with the car it has to do with you. You started out talking about more power but say you don't want to go fast. You then say you just want to DE but if you go to TT then you'll just rebuild the car. Again, make a plan and go from there. All you are doing now is chasing your tail like I mentioned earlier.

If you truly want to build a race car then commit and build a race car. If you don't then you'r gonna end up with a misguided project worth nothing. It will be hard to sell and probably to expensive to correct. As I said I have seen this EXACT scenario many times.

[MrBlah]

it must be hard for wheel to wheel racers to accept that some of us are just not interested in that. I have no interest in racing for the love of god

I'm also not interested in having the fastest car, or in any kind of arms race

my current car also has appropriate safety gear, I drive it to work you think I should put a 6 point in it? I did not think so

[putnampunk]

it must be hard for wheel to wheel racers to accept that some of us are just not interested in that. I have no interest in racing for the love of god

I'm also not interested in having the fastest car, or in any kind of arms race

my current car also has appropriate safety gear, I drive it to work you think I should put a 6 point in it? I did not think so

Maybe everyone you are asking advice from has seen this go down repeatedly and building a faster car that doesn't meet any rules is pointless and wasteful. DEs should be about improving the driver (even after lazy NASA instructors sign you off) and learning the limits is easier and safer if not built up to "win" HPDEs. If you just want to go out and have fun, at least care enough about your neck or guts to worry about safety as well as power.

Then why were you trying to figure out if you wanted a LS in an E36?? Or complaining about not being able to pass people in the straights.

You were looking to throw together a real compromise safety setup.

You make a thread asking for advice, but don't seem to have a clue what you want, just don't like what you are hearing.

[MrBlah]

Then why were you trying to figure out if you wanted a LS in an E36?? Or complaining about not being able to pass people in the straights.

You were looking to throw together a real compromise safety setup.

I'm not sure you read the first post, I said e36 for a year of HPDE/setup then swap an LS1. LS1's only make 300hp with a cam your at about the same power as a E46 M3 with much cheaper parts

did you think I was gonna build a 600 hp monster? That would not be cheap to run, See post 1 bullet 3

[boostedinaz]

e36 for a year of HPDE/setup then swap an LS1.

Why? With a good driver an E36 can be competative with a stock S50/52. If you aren't going for all out speed like you keep saying a stockish E36 is perfect.

LS1's only make 300hp with a cam your at about the same power as a E46 M3 with much cheaper parts

Even a little 5.3 will make over 300hp. Start adding a cam and now you are up in the 400+hp range. Suddenly you are now going much faster and putting more wear and tear on your car. Again, just buy an E36 or E46 and be done.

[putnampunk]

my current car also has appropriate safety gear, I drive it to work you think I should put a 6 point in it? I did not think so

the mini is already a dedicated track car it started out as an autocross car and progressed to track only.

You drive your track only / dedicated car to work? Maybe people can't follow what you've said because you state contradictory things...

You could use your 3 point OEM belt on the street, with it passing through the harness side holes of a fixed back, as Massive has said (and how the M4 GTS is set up).

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I'm not sure you read the first post, I said e36 for a year of HPDE/setup then swap an LS1. LS1's only make 300hp with a cam your at about the same power as a E46 M3 with much cheaper parts

did you think I was gonna build a 600 hp monster? That would not be cheap to run, See post 1 bullet 3

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...aft-dyno-test/

One of the 224/230's most obvious advantages over the stock camshaft was peak power, coming in at 463.2 hp at 6,300 rpm, a gain of 45.2 hp.

Why do you need more power than a stock E36 (even non-M3)?? Instructors run with Cooper Ss, E36 M3s, etc. What is the point of more power?

[MrBlah]

and here's where I go round and round trying to decide, mod the mini these things have a bmw tax, to make 240hp will mean big valve head, cam, injectors, header and tune and that would put me roughly the same speed as an e36 M3

or save it and put it in the e36/e46 piggy bank.

One nice thing about the mini, it drives the same as my JCW I use for autocross so I dont have to relearn the car every other weekend. I do love autocross

yeah it's driven to work, I drive it to the track it's staying street legal but it's only reason it's in the garage is HPDE, I have a JCW for autocross and a 135i, and an x5 for daily duty if the 540i is broken. Basically the suspension makes it painfull but the pain is worth it as it greatly extended my tire life. Putting stiff springs took my tire life from 4 days to 8 days!

[putnampunk]

and here's where I go round and round trying to decide, mod the mini these things have a bmw tax, to make 240hp will mean big valve head, cam, injectors, header and tune and that would put me roughly the same speed as an e36 M3

or save it and put it in the e36/e46 piggy bank.

One nice thing about the mini, it drives the same as my JCW I use for autocross so I dont have to relearn the car every other weekend. I do love autocross

yeah it's driven to work, I drive it to the track it's staying street legal but it's only reason it's in the garage is HPDE, I have a JCW for autocross and a 135i, and an x5 for daily duty if the 540i is broken. Basically the suspension makes it painfull but the pain is worth it as it greatly extended my tire life. Putting stiff springs took my tire life from 4 days to 8 days!

Don't mod it or buy a faster car. Invest in yourself (and safety gear). That is better than building a 460hp E36 handful and never really learn how to drive fast, then have a MCS fill your mirrors in the corners and have to let off to have them pass you in the straight...

So it is dual duty, unlIke your prior post. And you aren't going to cage it since you have learned that it is a bad idea for the street. Now if only you can pick up that going for more power is also not the sensible path...

[MrBlah]

Don't mod it or buy a faster car. Invest in yourself

I wanted to address just this as it may have been lost in all the banter. as I said in the first post all of 2017 season will be in the mini, the next car (or +50hp on the mini) will be for 2018 season

I cant really address the pros/cons to e36 or e46 but I can list the cons for the mini

FWD tears up the tires, but oversteer is easy to correct
-2.5 is all the camber I can get, pyrometer says I need more
170 hp and 2600 pounds
bmw tax on mods, to bring it up to 240hp will cost 6000 for a big valve head/cam/injectors/header/tune. It's basically all at once to do as they work together and I would probably have to add water/meth injection at the track

pros
drives basically the same as my JCW autocross car, so no relearning the car every other weekend
I already have it!
they are a hoot if you have not driven one you need to

[putnampunk]

I wanted to address just this as it may have been lost in all the banter. as I said in the first post all of 2017 season will be in the mini, the next car (or +50hp on the mini) will be for 2018 season

I cant really address the pros/cons to e36 or e46 but I can list the cons for the mini

FWD tears up the tires, but oversteer is easy to correct
-2.5 is all the camber I can get, pyrometer says I need more
170 hp and 2600 pounds
bmw tax on mods, to bring it up to 240hp will cost 6000 for a big valve head/cam/injectors/header/tune. It's basically all at once to do as they work together and I would probably have to add water/meth injection at the track

pros
drives basically the same as my JCW autocross car, so no relearning the car every other weekend
I already have it!
they are a hoot if you have not driven one you need to

Wow you can master a MCS to max potential at limits in a single year of... 3(?) events... without instruction? Too bad you aren't open to W2W, you might be the next Schumacher!

You know adding HP will increase brake pad costs or maybe make a new issue (need brake cooling)? It doesn't sound like cheap i.s your goal...

You know what is RWD, cheap to mod for the track (brake pads, suspension, safety), and cheap to run? E30 or Miata... although the value of nice street E30s have been getting nuts, ones you could build for the track are cheap

[MrBlah]

Wow you can master a MCS to max potential at limits in a single year of... 3(?) events... without instruction? Too bad you aren't open to W2W, you might be the next Schumacher!

You know adding HP will increase brake pad costs or maybe make a new issue (need brake cooling)? It doesn't sound like cheap i.s your goal...

You know what is RWD, cheap to mod for the track (brake pads, suspension, safety), and cheap to run? E30 or Miata... although the value of nice street E30s have been getting nuts, ones you could build for the track are cheap

I'm doing 1 hpde per month and 2 autocrosses per month this year, I make no claims to being able to max anything out as I said I'm not chasing tenths I'm just having fun why is it always about race lol

I did have to upgrade brakes and I had to add ducting on the mini, i was shocked how much the ducting did

[putnampunk]

I'm doing 1 hpde per month and 2 autocrosses per month this year, I make no claims to being able to max anything out as I said I'm not chasing tenths I'm just having fun why is it always about race lol

I did have to upgrade brakes and I had to add ducting on the mini, i was shocked how much the ducting did

If you are not maximizing yourself before adding more power, you are not going to get the most out of sessions. I think you have probably found a plateau and arent fast enough yourself if you think you need more power. If you just want to ignore all advice, have fun and burn money faster, so be it (as Emre said). I'm not really sure why you started this thread then if you weren't planning to listen...

[MrBlah]

If you are not maximizing yourself before adding more power, you are not going to get the most out of sessions. I think you have probably found a plateau and arent fast enough yourself if you think you need more power. If you just want to ignore all advice, have fun and burn money faster, so be it (as Emre said). I'm not really sure why you started this thread then if you weren't planning to listen...

did you have some pro's/cons of e36 or e46 as a track platform you forgot to mention? I'm just looking for advice on a car you can insult my ability if you want but it's not gonna help me pick what I drive in 2018

[putnampunk]

did you have some pro's/cons of e36 or e46 as a track platform you forgot to mention? I'm just looking for advice on a car you can insult my ability if you want but it's not gonna help me pick what I drive in 2018

PRO
They are RWD (170 HP and 2600 lb in a RWD platform may be much more enjoyable - like in an E30 325i)
A rough E36 M3 can be had about as cheap as a nice street E30 these days...
E36 M3 are a good "package" off the shelf, as far as performance goes (although so are E30 325i... just slap a suspension and camber plates in with track pads)
E36 non-Ms can be had for a song (less than your $6k to make the MCS be faster for a full car, sometimes with all the prep you need done already)
E46 are coming down in price (as people have ragged on them and scared of high maintenance costs)

CON
Both E36 and E46 are chunky compared to E30 or MCS
E36s need a lot of prep to not fail at the track vs much limited scope for more robust E30 (M50/S50/S52s like to back off their oil pump nut, E36 can rip out RTAB pockets, have plastic cooling system parts, etc.) No idea of prepping an E46... I assume they didn't reinforce from the factory like you need to in order to track
E36 and E46 probably have higher running costs - rotors, tires, etc.
Already done up E46 are not as common as I've seen for pre-built E36 or E30 track cars

You could always ride with instructors and ask them what cars they have owned and liked most. And have one drive your car with you in it to show what it is capable of... of course, organizations made to teach people how to drive fast may be more helpful in these items than one that throws novices loose on the track by themselves once the instructors becomes more pre-occupied in prepping for their race or time trial than making you a better driver.

Or just get this (it even has extra M52 power in it already for you): http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/cto/5933941416.html - $8500
Rust free, coilovers+camber plates, rollbar+shells+harnesses, tons of replacement parts to ensure reliability - what more could one want??!?

Or $5200 for this with a lot of good work done: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...erformance-E36
This looks to have sold for $4500 but could find similar: https://www.panjo.com/buy/1996-bmw-3...ack-car-333857
Built Spec 3 / Spec E36 for $5.5k: http://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/2412/
The non-Ms are half price of a track-setup E36 M3: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=545170

Built Spec Miata for $5K: http://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/2611/

[MrBlah]

You could always ride with instructors and ask them what cars they have owned and liked most. And have one drive your car with you in it to show what it is capable of... of course, organizations made to teach people how to drive fast may be more helpful in these items than one that throws novices loose on the track by themselves once the instructors becomes more pre-occupied in prepping for their race or time trial than making you a better driver.

I have rode with instructors but I'm not sure I am comfortable with them driving my car, it's bad enough riding with them. On that subject I dont know how they ride around in some of these crazy hpde cars, I would not ever want to get into a novice driving a late model corvette/m/mustang. At trackclubusa @ vir my instructor commented on how crazy fast the new z06 he just got out of was, that driver was just getting signed off for solo driving. When I did skip barber school they did not ride along, but were manning the corners and stopping us on the course to critique. Honestly I got more out of nasa-se and a good instructor than I did on skip barber.

I'll be doing HPDE with 4 different clubs this season and afaik all start the morning with an instructor unless you run in open no pointby passing groups and I'm not into that. I could opt for no instructor with nasa-se yellow group now that I've run a few events and multiple sign offs but I like having a check ride

[putnampunk]

I have rode with instructors but I'm not sure I am comfortable with them driving my car, it's bad enough riding with them. On that subject I dont know how they ride around in some of these crazy hpde cars, I would not ever want to get into a novice driving a late model corvette/m/mustang. At trackclubusa @ vir my instructor commented on how crazy fast the new z06 he just got out of was, that driver was just getting signed off for solo driving. When I did skip barber school they did not ride along, but were manning the corners and stopping us on the course to critique. Honestly I got more out of nasa-se and a good instructor than I did on skip barber.

I'll be doing HPDE with 4 different clubs this season and afaik all start the morning with an instructor unless you run in open no pointby passing groups and I'm not into that. I could opt for no instructor with nasa-se yellow group now that I've run a few events and multiple sign offs but I like having a check ride

Wut? Why don't you like riding with them?? Anyway, three of us on our race team were turning nearly the same lap times, then a buddy who had waaay more seat time arrove&drove with us and showed us up in a our own car he'd never driven before on a track he'd never been on before, his first full timed lap (second time around the track). He continued to get to know the car (with faster lap times) and helped us improve with suggestions. Ultimately we realized we didn't need more power, we needed to make more of what we had. But if you are often alone in your car and haven't been shown what it could do, you might look to other ways to speed it up (power) instead of making the most out of it. And it isn't likely to happen through trial and error (and the downside possibilities are not great) versus someone coaching you or showing you in their similar car. If you find an instructor with a MCS and they can take you out, I'd recommend it strongly.

Yeah, it's probably overwhelming sometimes, especially with NASA types. I'm not sure who in the world would ever want to ride shotgun in a 460hp E36 with stock seats, 4 pt harnesses, and a roll bar next to a driver who "just wants to have fun".

SCCA Track Night in America has pre/post coaching but no one in the cars. It has less support (to improve) than Driving Schools obviously and seems more like lapping sessions with a chance of instruction. But one of the risks of not having someone in the car is that a driver in a new Z06 decided that the end of the session black flag meant to parked it in the first corner (which sloped down so visibility wasn't great)... that was a very scary situation and thankfully no one rear-ended him at 100+. Having even intermediate students run around with monsters like that without close supervision is pretty unsettling. No wonder Skip has people learn on Miatas or Formula Neons.

[MrBlah]

Yeah, it's probably overwhelming sometimes, especially with NASA types. I'm not sure who in the world would ever want to ride shotgun in a 460hp E36 with stock seats, 4 pt harnesses, and a roll bar next to a driver who "just wants to have fun".

SCCA Track Night in America has pre/post coaching but no one in the cars. It has less support (to improve) than Driving Schools obviously and seems more like lapping sessions with a chance of instruction. But one of the risks of not having someone in the car is that a driver in a new Z06 decided that the end of the session black flag meant to parked it in the first corner (which sloped down so visibility wasn't great)... that was a very scary situation and thankfully no one rear-ended him at 100+. Having even intermediate students run around with monsters like that without close supervision is pretty unsettling. No wonder Skip has people learn on Miatas or Formula Neons.

not sure why you singled out an e36, but pretty much every new sports car will have stock seats and no roll bar and high hp, and why would someone use 4 point with a roll hoop? At least use a 5 point.. Me personally I would not want to get in with a novice with a new mustang, camaro, vette, m3. At the track days I've been to there are lots of high hp cars with no additional safety gear, the speed/risk goes way up when you have 300+ hp and then to top it off no track experience.

stopping on the track for a black flag was not an intermediate move, that is a novice was it his first time on the track? learning flags and drills day one stuff. I was going to do scca track nights at CMP this year, it's not the cheapest way on the track but no hotel bill is nice