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Thread: Help with next HPDE car

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by poweredbyg60 View Post
    you want to be the fastest and not concerned with safety. sounds good.

    miata with LS swap sounds more like your cup of tea, cheap and fast. you can get a lot of HPDE trophies in them.
    you think an ls swap e36 is gonna be the fastest LOL there's gt3/4' and vipers running hpde with no cage and stock seats do you think they should put in fixed seats too?

    how many people put cages in street cars? I did not think that was even safe driving around with a cage and no helmet on

    - - - Updated - - -

    ohh crap I fell into the trap, I talked about seats again when it's not even what I'm asking about

    - - - Updated - - -

    just talked to some Porche fanatics, they said 944+ls has been done for a while and is proven, anyone driven one? They do it a little different and adapt the bellhousing to the LS
    Last edited by MrBlah; 12-04-2016 at 02:45 PM.
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  2. #27
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    i said miata swap LS. yes i have seen 2 well driven built LS miatas smoking the entire advanced group.
    viper seats are a far cry from seats in that mini vid. can't say i have seen a viper at a HPDE either.
    i spent a bunch of track days in my stock mk6 GTI the seats they are great to a point.
    i have fixed seat with no cage in my 325i, not the issue, folks where saying a folding seat with cage is not cool!
    i don't like swaps from other makers. want LS power buy an LS car. want great power and balance buy a bmw why i did.
    thought the topic was about building a track car not what street cars are doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by olemiss540 View Post
    Nope. Ducati....
    just finished my LS swap in my harley i'll win P1.

  3. #28
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    There was a viper in my run group at the last HPDE I did

    I could care less what engine/manufacture I run as long as it's reliable and works

    I have about a year to plan before I make a car purchase or decide to dump money into this mini, but I tend to overplan and start acquiring parts right away
    Last edited by MrBlah; 12-04-2016 at 10:05 PM.
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  4. #29
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    I would tweak the suspension before adding HPs... More power is only needed when too much speed was scrubbed off in corners... ;-)
    Also fixed back bucket seats will make the car lighter. Which is good. ;-)
    Most reclining seat backs will break under a hard rear impact. You could break your neck against the roll bar.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
    just talked to some Porche fanatics, they said 944+ls has been done for a while and is proven, anyone driven one? They do it a little different and adapt the bellhousing to the LS
    944 is transaxle, has to be done differently.



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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Lee View Post
    I would tweak the suspension before adding HPs... More power is only needed when too much speed was scrubbed off in corners... ;-)

    Just my 2 cents.
    yeah I'm really only looking for the next platform I always do brakes, coilovers/suspension first

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do have one other option but I'm a bit nervous about it. I could upgrade the brake/engine cooling/suspension on my 135i and run that, the platform is well documented now by the TT guys. But I would not put it on the track without buying HPDE insurance for every event. It does take a good bit of modifications and coding to keep them from going into limp mode but they are really cool cars and with all the bolt ons they make pretty good power but still streetable with ac. That would mean continue to drive the the mini as is this next year, then the 135i for a year then I could then decide if I want to move to wheel to wheel like spec e30 (huge here).

    The 135i has not seen rain in 5 years and is basically new, the thought of scrubbing rubber off the hood kinda scares me the car is spotless inside/out/under

    coworker says buy a salvage c5 z06 and call it a day lol
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  7. #32
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    The fast cars you'll see at a BMW Club Race are e36 / e46 with an S54 swaps. Stock engine w/ 340hp and basically a bolt-on, plus the electronic aspect is well documented.

    944s only shine a PCA events. Otherwise, these cars give no feedback. Stick to a BMW. ;-) Basically buy an already caged/prepped car and swap the motor.
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Lee View Post
    944s only shine a PCA events. Otherwise, these cars give no feedback.
    ohh that sucks, feedback is why I like the e36 so much they are a fun car to push, the mini is really fun to drive too
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
    ohh that sucks, feedback is why I like the e36 so much they are a fun car to push, the mini is really fun to drive too
    A 944T can be turned into a track terror, fast and all the handling you'll ever need. Since it was built by Germans, they love to leak power steering fluid (should be familiar story). To solve that once and for all I did the Euro manual rack conversion and the car gave excellent steering feedback.

    I've run into several LS1 944's, they are stupid fast, I sometimes see the owners having teething problems with them, likely due to conversion related issues.

    The 951 motor can be a little finicky itself, but it's easy to build big power, the engine is big and rugged, runs smooth with dual balance shafts, has factory engine and transmission coolers, even a factory timed auxiliary turbo water pump so the turbo doesn't coke up after shutoff. It's an awesome car. Just make sure to baffle the pan to keep rod bearing 2 happy.
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  10. #35
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    So maybe something like this? LS swap it that's a pretty cheap trackday car

    http://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/5865288027.html
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  11. #36
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    Imo, you're severely underestimating what it takes for a V8 swap. Fuggetaboutit. Track your Mini or get a Miata or E36 with proven recipes for success and have fun. Sure its fun, but not a single person needs a V8 for an HPDE. If you want to pass more cars get stickier tires.

  12. #37
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    Lotsa good info on this thread. Great speed tips from Lee and Dan !

    We run with the Viper Club here , along with some Minis and E30s.
    Open passing (pro group) and with a few standard bolt ons and track prep, we manage fine.
    Sure there are some faster cars around us , we still have a great time.
    Being aware and predictable is the key.

    Mini is a fun car on all the tracks !
    If you have an opportunity get an instructor or pro in there with you. Video everything.
    Over the years , I must have had a least ten instructors and learned something different from all of them.
    You may be suprised what your car is capable of.

    As for the throttle jockeys you described in your first post , fill their mirrors in the twisties.
    If that doesn't work after three times , better to pit out and re-enter.

    Good luck and enjoy the tracks !

    Dave S

  13. #38
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    Depending on the area, the usual DE cars can change a lot. It seems like TX has the highest HP cars in general, and I'd say the SE and MidWest tend to be the next groups to have all high HP metal out there. It can be a little unnerving, and honestly, I've felt unsafe out there in the advanced groups in low HP stuff. Stuff happens, and some drivers out there don't tend to realize that not every car is going to do 160 mph on the front straight. Yes, they're idiots and not the norm, but at the end of the day, it's still dangerous.

    My car was down for a while, so I took my bone stock RSX Type S out there for a few weekends. It was miserable, as I don't think I got a clean couple of corners in a row, much less a clean lap. I had more fun going out in the second slowest run group (blue in TX, C in SE region), as at least there I was running roughly similar lap times to the high HP stuff (with n00b drivers). There were some close calls out there, where the 600 rwhp C6 Z06 on Hoosiers didn't realize I was only going 90 mph around a fast sweeper at the end of the straight, and he was already committed at like 130 mph. Stuff like that just makes the DE experience unenjoyable to me, because I'm now not just managing traffic, I'm now worried about someone going double my speed and not realizing it until too late collecting both of us.


    That said, a FI setup on the track is not a problem if you do it right. The problem is, 99% of the people just bolt on the power and don't really address the others things, so they have issues. As with most issues out there on track, the problem is between the seat and steering wheel.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBDan View Post
    Imo, you're severely underestimating what it takes for a V8 swap. Fuggetaboutit.
    ehh? I've done a few engine/trans swaps but never an LS, did not look too hard and I've got a nice shop with a lift
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  15. #40
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    I just picked up an E36 M3 for cheap with most of the major stuff done (chains, clutch, tires, etc). The m3 will be used for HPDE, then TT, and if it works out W2W. I ran an E36 before (325is) for HPDE and really enjoyed the car. It was really reliable and cheap to run even at 178k miles. I was able to past many cars except the audi awd, corvette ZR1, and the GT3. I looked at E46's but the cost of maintenance seems to go way up. I am basing this on 5 close buddies that have e46's. The e36 stuff is plentiful and fairly cheap unless you go down that rabbit hole of trying to be the most powerful guy out there. I could run my 930, but the thought of $15k for a motor rebuild is too scary for me (I have done two already). At any rate good luck and if you have the budget have at it. Keep in mind what ever you think it will cost for the nicer cars double it...at least.

  16. #41
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    OP is ignoring solid advice in this thread about seats. You want either 3 point OEM belts + reclining seats + no roll bar OR 5/6-point harness (and HANS ideally) + fixed back + roll bar. Mixing is a compromise that puts your spine on the line. Fast cars with OEM seats and no roll bars are better than reclining seats in a cage.

    Just because some instructors (NASA?) signed off for you to solo because they would rather do something else with their non-driving time doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue further instruction. After that happened to me, I shaved a couple seconds off my laps (in a weekend) by having a good BMWCCA instructor help develop more.

    Who cares if you can't pull on people in the straights? I passed much faster cars there because got them in the corners. If they don't let up, it is an issue with them - just cruise thru the hot pits to get clean track (unless it is NASA then choo choo goes the train). Track night in America had a lot more free space to run, plus BMW is usually less packed and people more focused on improving themselves vs. getting 500 hp like some NASA folks.

    Instead of $6k on a cage and engine mods, buy a built track or racecar. A LeMons car with cage can be had for half that and then you can actually race instead of trying to be HPDE champion. Just be sure to co-drive with someone who didn't get signed off early to solo and developed the loose nut behind the wheel instead to show you how much speed potential is there.

    If you want to develop yourself, keep what you got, make sure safety is good, and run it as is. Do some suspension tweak as you go, brakes as necessary, and run street tires as long as you can. Alternatively, get an e30 or miata for cheap running costs (small tires). Performance Friction 08s wear super slow but are great IMO. I picked up an E36 M3 for the track after years of an stock-power E30 325is on coilovers, which taught me a lot and got more out of than if I just threw power at it (like I originally wanted to do but people wised me up against doing). You could get a Vette if you wanted speed with low upfront costs but one of my race team is not happy with his running costs with one.
    Last edited by rwh11385; 12-29-2016 at 07:01 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwh11385 View Post
    OP is ignoring solid advice in this thread about seats. You want either 3 point OEM belts + reclining seats + no roll bar OR 5/6-point harness (and HANS ideally) + fixed back + roll bar. Mixing is a compromise that puts your spine on the line. Fast cars with OEM seats and no roll bars are better than reclining seats in a cage.
    I've got lots of conflicting advice on this across a few forums & reddit this is what I have come to believe

    reclining seat + 3 point, couple people said stay here where I'm at now, front & head airbags in place
    reclining seat + schroth quickfit pro, bunch said run this it's a 4 point but made to break away like a 3 point in accident
    reclining seat or fixed back + roll hoop & 5/6point & hans this is the only place that's made a distinction between seat type and a roll hoop pretty common to do with OEM reclining seats.

    and one thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on, full 6 point cage out of the question as the car is driven without a helmet on the street

    I decided a couple weeks ago that roll hoop + 5/6 point harness and hans is as safe as I can get in a street car I'm leaving front & head airbags on for now
    Last edited by MrBlah; 12-29-2016 at 06:38 PM.
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  18. #43
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    I once bought a schroth but sold it (after not wanting to trust it) and got a CG Lock instead and it worked great (with Recaro SRD/Speed). This did not negate the OEM safety system. But I know some who use 4pt ASMs with reclining sport seats and no roll bar - however, some are looking to improve from this. And some clubs may scrutinize this.

    Just because it is common in automotive culture does not mean it is the right thing to do. Just look at the Stance kids and 45 degree camber. But dual duty cars are subject to making decisions for a compromise - but on safety is not something to be taken lightly. Still, there are people here who run reclinable seats in front of their roll bar and have decided to accept risk and prefer the rollbar to not.

    Good links: http://www.ogracing.com/blog/2013/02...ing-harnesses/
    http://forums.nasaaz.com/showthread.php?t=6287

    Yes, even with good padding, you probably don't want to bash your skull into a bar forward of the seat. And most people don't plate their racecars anyway.

    That sounds like a plan, I'd just get some racing shells instead of reclining seats.

    If you think there's a lot of opinions on seats so far, search out some halo/containment discussions on dual purpose cars. People have their own definition of what is safe and appropriate - just make sure you aren't copying something based on assumptions or lack of care that was posted on reddit.

    Edit: another good thread here on this subject of street driving a track car http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...e-street/page2
    Last edited by rwh11385; 12-30-2016 at 12:25 PM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwh11385 View Post
    OP is ignoring solid advice in this thread about seats. You want either 3 point OEM belts + reclining seats + no roll bar OR 5/6-point harness (and HANS ideally) + fixed back + roll bar. Mixing is a compromise that puts your spine on the line. Fast cars with OEM seats and no roll bars are better than reclining seats in a cage.

    Just because some instructors (NASA?) signed off for you to solo because they would rather do something else with their non-driving time doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue further instruction. After that happened to me, I shaved a couple seconds off my laps (in a weekend) by having a good BMWCCA instructor help develop more.
    I basically agree with these points, but I think the Schroth clip-ins are okay. I think the risk to our equipment and health is elevated significantly at the track (how many track event participants would have 'gone off' on the street in a given weekend if they hadn't 'gone off' at the track instead?). Different people have different tolerances for this and that changes with time, but my preference has shifted strongly towards cage/nets/fire suppression/etc. I realize the OP didn't ask about seat safety, but I agree that this is one of the more important points in this thread and that putting together a safe package should be a main goal. I'm not going to say that you must have this or that equipment, but the points made about reclining seats are spot-on and some people (myself included) may feel more strongly about this than what kind of car you should get. Case in point about seat back support: my FIA-certified fixed back seat will be expired for BMW CCA club racing next season and I will have to replace it or brace it to pass tech inspection for races. Seat integrity is important.

    That said, I love the E46. They are cheap now, too. I wouldn't get anything less than a 330i at this point, but they can be pretty fast. That said, buying a finished car is by far the most crest effective approach.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
    I've got lots of conflicting advice on this across a few forums & reddit this is what I have come to believe

    reclining seat + 3 point, couple people said stay here where I'm at now, front & head airbags in place
    reclining seat + schroth quickfit pro, bunch said run this it's a 4 point but made to break away like a 3 point in accident
    reclining seat or fixed back + roll hoop & 5/6point & hans this is the only place that's made a distinction between seat type and a roll hoop pretty common to do with OEM reclining seats.

    and one thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on, full 6 point cage out of the question as the car is driven without a helmet on the street

    I decided a couple weeks ago that roll hoop + 5/6 point harness and hans is as safe as I can get in a street car I'm leaving front & head airbags on for now
    I ran head protection, side impact airbags, and standard airbags with fixed back seats, 6-put belts, and a HANS up until I went for a full cage, at which point I deleted the airbags and added a head protection seat. Before that I had Schroth clip-ins with the ASM technology and loved them. My wife overheard an instructor of mine go off about the clip in belts without and evidence to support him, and she made me raise my safety game or quit...

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
    not my vid, but you can see what the stock seats do, they are horrible and dangerous on the track I have to death grip the wheel, the last time I had an instructor for a check off ride at VIR he was bumping into me trying to hang on
    Heres the cheapest and best track mod I've made in my MCoupe. Cut a slot about 6" from one end to slip over the headrest, and let the rest drape down over the seat. Once you sit on it, it almost like you're glued in placed. Totally changed the feel of my stock seats and I'm no longer fighting to stay behind the wheel

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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  21. #46
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    I've been doing HPDE events for over 15 years now. I've had two big wrecks: one where I was the driver; the other where I was in the passenger seat.

    Up until the second accident, I was running what seemed to be a "reasonable compromise" for street/track use: an E30 with 4-point rollbar, Recaro SRD seats (folding), 4-point Willans harnesses, airbag delete, and Sparco "flea collar" style neck support.

    Then I was a passenger in an FD RX-7 turbo with the same setup as my car. We went backwards into the wall. My head contacted the rollbar; carbon fiber helmet cracked open; I was knocked out cold. Took about 2 hours to come back to my senses.

    Lesson learned. Stock street car (on street tires) or properly prepped race car; no "compromises" for me. My current race/track car is a Mercedes 190E Cosworth with full 6-point cage, FIA halo seats, 6-point harnesses, HANS device, window/center nets, kill switches, and plumbed-in fire suppression system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I guess the point I'm making is that it seems foolish to get drawn into the "HPDE world champion" arms race (which seems common in NASA circles).

    Don't swap an LS7 engine into a car with coilovers and R-comps but no cage/seats/harnesses/HANS. If your budget is $6k then you've got enough for proper safety equipment.
    Last edited by Emre; 01-01-2017 at 10:59 AM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emre View Post
    I guess the point I'm making is that it seems foolish to get drawn into the "HPDE world champion" arms race (which seems common in NASA circles).
    Best HPDE advice I've seen in a long time.

    I have my current car E36 M3) setup very nicely with suspension, tires, reliability, and safety. At this point, adding HP would certainly decrease my lap times, but not make me a better drive NOR be any more fun. I'm chasing 10th's of seconds improvements right now by trying to make myself better, not the car. And it's fun.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 01-01-2017 at 12:01 PM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emre View Post
    . If your budget is $6k then you've got enough for proper safety equipment.
    so just to clarify, 6k is what it would cost to increase HP on the mini, it has nothing to do with my budget for anything car or safety related, it's just what it costs to make HP in the mini.

    I'm really only looking for ideas on the next car I'm not sure why everyone got off topic on safety crap for a hypothetical car I do not have yet. "fun from investment", or FFI, so is 6000 into the mini and run it a few years better FFI or put it in the E36/E46 m3 piggy bank and switch platforms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobkid View Post
    Heres the cheapest and best track mod I've made in my MCoupe. Cut a slot about 6" from one end to slip over the headrest, and let the rest drape down over the seat. Once you sit on it, it almost like you're glued in placed. Totally changed the feel of my stock seats and I'm no longer fighting to stay behind the wheel

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    My mini seats are swapped to the sparco's mini sold as an option, used ista-p seat retrofit to code out the seat sensor
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  24. #49
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    Before you start swapping engines and buying all kids of iffy safety equipment you need to sit down and decide where you want to go after DE. I have seen time and time again that someone builds some crazy car for DE because it will be fun only to get out of DE and the car doesn't class well. At that point you have wasted a ton of time and money for nothing. If you don't have a good plan and an idea of what class you want to run in you will be chasing your tail instead of racing.

    You absolute best bang for the buck is an E36. If you have extra cash then go for an E46 as it is your next best contender. In either case don't engine swap or supercharge anything. Build the chassis first with a good quality components and once you are done with that then add power.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
    I'm really only looking for ideas on the next car I'm not sure why everyone got off topic on safety crap for a hypothetical car I do not have yet.
    If you are asking about next HPDE cars and think that worrying about safety is crap and only focused on horsepower, maybe you should take a break from NASA and see other HPDEs for a while...
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