Just to add an instructors viewpoint, it's pretty simply. Every organization I've instructed for gives me 100% control over the student. If I feel in any way the student is doing anything unsafe and doesn't respond to my direction, he/she gets a warning or goes home. Including overdriving his/her 500HP or 100HP car. The high HP cars just get into trouble quicker than the low HP cars, but the type of trouble they get into is pretty much the same; usually turning in too early and trying to fix that by pushing on the wrong pedal. The 'only' thing the high HP cars require an instructor to do different than a low HP, is to notice the problem more quickly. The place where the higher HP car can really get into trouble, down the main straight, usually isn't that big of a problem.
It's of course more complicated than that sometimes.
Alright, so subtle doesn't work - got it. I was alluding to the monster e36 you wanted with a potentially hodge podge safety setup.
No, not first time but green enough to make that call. I think he got signed off to drive solo and ran with it.
So why again are you uncomfortable riding with instructors?? Seemed to avoid that question...
Montego/Saddle E91 328i xDrive - Estoril/Cloth Blue M3/4/5 - LeMons 325e - Artic/Black 1998 540iA (shell, for sale or donation towards LeMons)
false assumption on both counts and I'm just not interested in talking about safety gear in this thread, have you ever put a cart before the horse? it does not work too well. Once I pick a car then I'll decide how far I want to go with it and that is a year away.
I'm not sure what you are looking for, I don't really enjoy going fast with someone else I've only known for a short time, and I know I would not enjoy it at all in my car that they have never drove before.
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
As a long-time instructor (and former chief instructor) I can honestly say that there is no novice an any car that has ever worried me. Novices don't get into trouble. I've had novice students in 1st generation Vipers, Z06 Corvettes, E92 M3's, etc. and they're all fine.
The people who get into trouble are intermediate and advanced students with 8-10 track weekends under their belts who think they're now ready for F1. They're usually the ones with shady mods, inadequate safety equipment, too much tire, and poorly sorted suspensions. They're driving fast enough to get into massive trouble, but don't have the skills to keep a small problem from getting much bigger or get the car under control when things go south.
The real crime is that many instructors will sign these guys off just because they don't want to be in the car with them. So, they're driving without instruction just when they need it the most. The BMW CCA is pretty good about avoiding this, but (IMNSHO) tons of NASA and PCA students are signed off for "instructor comfort."
lot of local guys run with the PCA club, I've watched enough of the hpde videos they have taken to NOT want to go out on the track with that group
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
You're not talking about safety gear in this thread? Have you read your own first post, or other ones?
And more conflicting statements: Before 6k was 1k for autopower rollbar and $5k for engine mods. Now it is 6k only for HP and nothing to do with safety related...
And your plans are less than ideal:
And even though you claim it is a dedicated track car, you drive it on the street so your original plan of putting a 6 point cage in it was a poor idea (as you later acknowledged). And even if you say "it's not like I'm wheel to wheel racing yet"... Emre made a great point:
Looking at options (like a 460hp E36) without considering safety setup is pretty daft. Planning to supercharge or engine swap a new car you don't own yet without first planning proper safety setup is looney.
Speaking of putting the cart before the horse... what about this great advice?
I know, I know. You don't give a crap about wasting money and multiple years of effort building a car if your plans change... but kinda sounds dumb to the rest of us...
Kinda ironic since instructors have to ride with you, right?
And from my experience, people who know how to drive well can pick up and adjust to new cars quickly. (So that they don't need their Auto-X and track car to be the same chassis to drive them on back-to-back weekends)
Montego/Saddle E91 328i xDrive - Estoril/Cloth Blue M3/4/5 - LeMons 325e - Artic/Black 1998 540iA (shell, for sale or donation towards LeMons)
your just reading into my comments out of context it's not worth commenting on something we already talked about 2 pages ago all you did is quote what I already replied to again you must be bored lol
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
They just have a different philosophy. When I started instructing with them, the chief instructor told me that the instructor's job is basically to make sure the student can "drive well enough to not kill himself." If he can make it around the track with reasonable safety, he gets signed off. Then you stick around and make yourself available in case he has specific questions. It's essentially an open lapping day with optional coaching.
Oh, you mean like with MrBlah???
Nah, you just can't keep your story straight. You claim people do not read what you write, but we do... then you claim reading what you write is taking it out of context. This thread is obviously pointless.
+1. Hopefully when you are in a car beyond your capability and run out of talent in a corner you are alone in the car and have actually sorted out a good safety setup against your current stubbornness.
Montego/Saddle E91 328i xDrive - Estoril/Cloth Blue M3/4/5 - LeMons 325e - Artic/Black 1998 540iA (shell, for sale or donation towards LeMons)
the cringe worthy videos I've seen end up with a train of expensive cars, it did not look like it was fun at all, pride vs pointby is hard for some I guess
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you might have a better day if you unsubscribe from it nothing forces you to post
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
E46 M3 would be my choice. They are getting criminally cheap, you can get a decent one in the low to mid teens.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/cto/5927929462.html
The tire size isn't the cheapest but it's not obscene, and neither are brakes but not bad and lots of options. They're plenty fast out of the box with a very tall ceiling and tons of options along the way. You won't be outdragging everyone but you'll have enough thrust that if you're really that much faster through the corner, you should be able to get the attention and a point-by from all but the most ignorant straight line heroes, and for those you can just do a pit drivethrough.
You should try open passing track days. I know you said you don't want to but if you are worried about passing then that's what you need to do, or go racing. The E in HPDE is Education, it's a school. Other people may be learning specific parts of the track or working on a skill. It's not a race or even a lapping day, and driving at 10/10 at an HPDE is irresponsible. Go to an open passing lapping day, they can blow by you on the straights and then if you catch them in the next corner, they have to give you room. I've never seen any issues at these, although the only one I've seen is held before a racing weekend so the drivers all generally know how to coexist.
I've been to them, all the hpde's I've been to here have an open/advanced pass anywhere anytime run group. One of them had that group with a "wheels straight" rule, the rest were open anywhere. I'm not sure I wanna be out there with them at least not yet, point by for me.
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
Going to back to original proposition, there are some conflicts in the goals (which are reasonable and good), and the proposed cars, which don't really match. To have low consumables, an LS1 conversion into those cars really isn't going to have low consumables. As soon as you go with a combo like that fuel and tires will go quickly. A C5 drinks fuel in massive gulps. Your Mini, or a Miata, or an E36 M3 will get you there, but there's that worry about straight line speed.
First, I would not worry so much about getting passed on straights. Yes, among friends HPDE's certainly ARE races (let's be honest here), as long as you catch someone once in a while on the corners, getting blown by on straights isn't so bad, it requires no skill, but is an ego bruiser - the person passing you has more money than you do! You want to have fun, and fun is passing. Just circling around the track lap after lap with no one to run with can get dull, and becomes an exercise in wearing out tires and brakes. So you need something competent.
Again, I think fixing up the Mini is a good path, fast ones are somewhat unique at HPDE's. Its fun to have a different car. I went to an E36 M3, its a great track car, but doesn't stand out at all. I used to track a Mk5 GTI, got it reasonably fast, and it was a lot of fun! Everyone always ran over and asked what was in it.
Also think PCA HPDE's have been mis-characterized, its not like we're running in the wild west and shooting at each other as we go around the track (but that would be interesting).
PCA HPDE Instructor
current:
2004 M3 convert 6sp man - low mileage beauty!
past:
1995 BMW M3 3.2
2004 M3 convert SMG
2003 BMW 540i6 Alpine White M sport (I want her back!)
Yeah I think it's not a specific club thing but a local thing. The UCR lapping days are my favourite. Even when I bring my wife's stock BRZ, and there's nothing there that isn't at least marginally faster than me in the straights (everything else goes by like I'm parked). But I have no problems getting pointbys and going side by side into turns with slower Turbos.
Exactly, within the same HPDE organization you get regional variances in how they're run. Personally I like PCA, they have a consistent set of national rules that most of the regional clubs stick too pretty well. They also have a well specified set of HPDE guidelines, that many other clubs completely lack.
Where I find PCA sometimes weak is admittance to the intermediate solo groups, where folks are just getting cut solo (typically white group). These drivers can be a real mixed bag, and you want to promote out of it as quickly as possible. I find drivers in their advanced and instructor open passing groups are generally pretty good. I have to admit as an instructor driving my E36 M3 in advanced run groups it can be occasionally disconcerting to have cars like GT3's appear in my mirror out of nowhere, and likely frustrating for them. I also run into occasional drivers of super high speed cars who let things get the better of them and just takes passes with no point by. These people are immediately reported or I make a personal visit after coming in. Some regional PCA's use a numbering system rather than color, and tend to drop the really fast solo cars into group 5, where cars like me go into 4 - Road Atlanta typical with PeachState PCA. Then I'm driving with other open passing drivers, but we're not holding up 500 hp cars.
PCA HPDE Instructor
current:
2004 M3 convert 6sp man - low mileage beauty!
past:
1995 BMW M3 3.2
2004 M3 convert SMG
2003 BMW 540i6 Alpine White M sport (I want her back!)
I've instructed with multiple chapters of the PCA for over a decade. I certainly didn't mean to imply that they're a Wild West free-for-all. But they certainly have a different philosophy whereby students are encouraged to learn on their own and come to instructors for focused coaching when they see fit. That's why instructors pay for their track time: the expectation is that they won't be spending all that much time in student cars (outside the novice group).
In contrast, the BMW CCA and BMW Club of Canada events have a specific curriculum for each rungroup and instructors are expected to be in the cars with all their students, including those in the advanced group. They get their track time "for free" because they're at the event to work and a few sessions of track time is their compensation.
That is quite a bit different than what I've seen with east coast PCA. I've run with NE, NY and most of the southeast, and we commit quite a bit of time to classroom and instructor time. Green and blue groups always have instructors until promoted to solo. Sometimes that process is a little iffy but for the most part our chief instructors watch promotion carefully. The feedback mechanism in the past has been weak but now all instructor feedback on students is available online which has been helpful. I can read past instructors comments and carry on working on what a student needs work with. We always emphasize getting more instruction. Personally I love getting rides with club racers as they always have something I can learn from.
PCA HPDE Instructor
current:
2004 M3 convert 6sp man - low mileage beauty!
past:
1995 BMW M3 3.2
2004 M3 convert SMG
2003 BMW 540i6 Alpine White M sport (I want her back!)
having so much fun in the mini I've not given any other car much consideration lately, I have the car pretty much dialed in but I'm not pushing braking zones yet.
Vid from last weekend at vir, feel free to critique
The term badge whores is not allowed on bimmerforums, because badge whores don't like it
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