DeadPool DEFEATED! -- 540i6 Front Mount Turbo Build

**tptrsn** · 11-21-2017, 07:06 PM

'71 Cuda with an roots supercharged M62

DAMN! That is a very sweet concept -- you're a madman!

I sure hope you document it on this board for us.

Excellent to hear about the trans adapter too, can't wait to see it also. I may yet be interested in following suit. One thing that would make me enjoy this car even more than I currently am would be a the smooth, solid flow of uninterrupted turbo power through a good automatic. It's heresy, but that's just me. Lol. I am happy that so far my clutch situation seems pretty good though, but I'm withholding final judgement on that until I'm making a bit more power.

As far as the congrats go, thank you.

I'm not sure I totally think it's a done deal just yet, but the past couple of days I've been enjoying driving this sucker around with over 18psi from the new turbo, and enjoying it quite a bit. With the new turbo on it, the car now has the slingshot feeling as you roll into the gas and the boost rolls in.

I guess I feel like once I bring in a bit more timing to really wake the beast up, if I keep being able to drive it around like that, I'll consider the deadpool soundly defeated. Currently it's making good power, but my timing is still very conservative as I'm feeling my way into getting everything all sorted out. There are two schools of thought as to whether you should bring in more boost first with less timing, or bring in the timing to max out the potential of the lower boost. Generally I prefer the former approach, but at this point I am close to running out of fuel system, and since more boost requires more fuel, it is time to bring in some more timing and stick where I am for boost. It seems like 19psi is where I will end up until I add more fuel system capacity (I've hit 18.8psi, and it was a little rich, so I can push it a little farther

).

"Large-ish turbo" M62 power, super comfy heated seats, heated steering wheel, excellent A/C for when the warm weather comes back around, great suspension, and an excellent differential for steering with the throttle really do make for a nice ride, I must say.

**philly98540** · 11-21-2017, 07:58 PM

Wow! 19 psi should be very quick. Bump up the timing and let's see what she'll do! E39 package and comfort is growing on you I see! Dead pool is just about killed!

**tptrsn** · 11-21-2017, 08:16 PM

I'd say the deadpool is on the ropes at this point, hopefully not rope-a-doping me. Lol

My log from yesterday shows 13.5-13.8 degrees of timing around 6400rpms at up to about 18.8psi. Hopefully from looking at your setup, when the time is right I'll be able to add in a degree at a time several times, and pick up a good chunk of power! You're running up to about 16psi, right? At what RPM does that boost level come in?

**philly98540** · 11-21-2017, 08:30 PM

Per logs I posted, it looks like 8 psi at 4700 then 16.8 at 6800. You'll have to use less timing than me since more boost down low. You should be safe to go up a bit with that e85 magic juice.

**tptrsn** · 11-21-2017, 08:53 PM

Yeah, I did a 3rd gear roll-in starting at about 3400 and was full throttle at about 4050. When I hit full throttle I was at 10.5psi, and had 17psi at 4570. Just about exactly what I wanted. I'm happy with this turbo! I know I could make it spool a little quicker with some manipulation of the reference signals too. A little regulated boost pressure to the top of the wastegate, and a little checkball style manual boost controller action to the side port would keep that valve from creeping open until real close to the target boost pressure. But man, it ain't too bad as is. This current setup is probably a little more driveable (maybe that means less cackling fun) than if the boost came in a little more violently.

What does your timing do as your boost comes in from 4700 to 6800? It doesn't show on your logs.

**philly98540** · 11-21-2017, 10:07 PM

Turbo sounds about perfect for this build, with stock bottom end and HG! Pressure is good. Much more may be risky? Some timing will bring spool on sooner. Must feel quick.

I don't have current Testo logs for where my timing is holding right now. I need to do that soon.

**tptrsn** · 11-22-2017, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by philly98540

Much more may be risky? . . . Must feel quick.

I kind of figured I was in the risky zone for a while now, Lol. But maybe not, who knows... It really is beginning to feel quick, and I have kind of a high tolerance for that.

Here's a log from a couple days ago. A little more tune polishing to do, but it's already looking quite nice. I'm pretty happy with this setup at the moment:

540 18.8psi Log.jpg

**philly98540** · 11-22-2017, 11:10 AM

Looking very nice Thad. A tad rich at very top, but overall AFR looks about perfect. I'm surprised your maxing those injectors already. Leaning up top will give a tiny bit more headroom, but your maxed out pretty much. More timing will bring on spool a bit sooner too and make it more lively!! Time to go up a there.

Very jealous of that MS3 you have there! Does cruise and off idle performance work great on it? How is cold start and such. Nice transitions and OEM DME driveablitly?

**tptrsn** · 11-22-2017, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by philly98540

A tad rich at very top, but overall AFR looks about perfect. I'm surprised your maxing those injectors already. Leaning up top will give a tiny bit more headroom, but your maxed out pretty much.

Yep, I need to polish the tune a bit more, but I really need to pull a little bit of boost out of it too, until I either install some high capacity fuel lines/regulator (still on all of the stock plumbing), or step up to a set of 210s. If they go on sale on Friday I might just grab a set. Today I showed something like 106% duty cycle in one of my logs. I've logged higher than that on another car previously, but it's not something l like to see.

Originally Posted by philly98540

Very jealous of that MS3 you have there! Does cruise and off idle performance work great on it? How is cold start and such. Nice transitions and OEM DME driveablitly?

Everything about the driveability is better than it has EVER been in the 7 years (?) I've owned the car. With the MS3 you just tell it what to do, and it does it. If you know how to tune, everything is there for you at the simple touch of a few keys or mouse. Absolutely amazing.

I think I will be taking advantage of DIYautotune's 10% discount for Black Friday and ordering up another MS3 for the LRS. I just have to decide in which configuration... Honestly, it makes no sense for me to not have it running any car that I want to play with.

**dovlet** · 11-22-2017, 10:45 PM

Bro, is MS3X cappable to safe engine in case if something goes wrong? Example:
1. High exhaust temps?
2. Miss fire?
3. High Engine Temperature?
4. Knocking?
5. etc, etc & etc....

**tptrsn** · 11-23-2017, 08:32 AM

This manual will give you a very good idea of what MS3+MS3X can do:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megas...erence-1.5.pdf

To somewhat answer your question though:

1) it can monitor individual cylinder exhaust temps or O2 sensors, and adjust individual cylinder timing and fuel trims to balance them. Of course that requires a lot of extra equipment, and I haven't done it personally.

2) no misfire sensing, but if you sense a misfire, MS3X allows you to turn off individual coils or fuel injectors to locate the problem.

3) Yes. You have a few options of safeties you can set up for coolant temps or intake air temps.

4) Yes, but it is not very popular to have the ECU protecting the engine from knock like people seem to want to rely on DMEs to protect them. It just doesn't work as well as people want most of the time.

5) The coolest safety feature in the MS3 is the one I asked to have written in when I was a beta tester for MS3 (I would think that, right? Lol). It is AFR Safety. You have a table of boost pressures against RPM, and AFR deviation tolerances at those boost pressures and RPMs. If the AFR goes leaner than that tolerance from what you have defined in your AFR target table, the engine is interrupted by ignition cut, fuel cut, or both, until some conditions are met as you define. It's super slick. You can find it in the manual I posted above.

**philly98540** · 11-23-2017, 08:49 AM

351 Pages! Gulp. Need a few days to scan that.

Good luck Sunday if you go to track!

- - - Updated - - -

Also, driveability details you wrote above sound excellent.

**tptrsn** · 11-23-2017, 09:10 AM

Thanks Chris!

MS3+MS3X is a potent combination for sure. My one reservation in recommending it to someone like you is that your car is working fantastically already, and you are super happy with it. Sometimes it's better not to mess with success. In my case, I've kind of never really been super happy with the driveability of my car, so it's an easy decision to do something else.

Having said that though, even for the LRS that I am happy with the driveability of, I have a full setup in my cart at DIYAutotune of MS3+MS3X with the MAPDaddy upgrade, 6 coil ignitor transistor kits for a "sixershock," and both wiring harnesses for the MS3 board and the MS3X board. Probably going to pull the plug on it this weekend and save myself 10%....

**philly98540** · 11-23-2017, 10:02 AM

Click click boom!

**tptrsn** · 11-23-2017, 10:16 AM

Yeah, pull the TRIGGER! That's more what I had in mind. Lol

**tptrsn** · 11-29-2017, 11:29 AM

Well, I made some black friday/cyber monday purchases. MS3+MS3X has made me so stinking happy in using it with this build, that I bought the complete kit I referred to above for the LRS.

On the topic of the 540, I have switched from the Siemens Deka 80# injectors to a set of RC 750cc saturated injectors to see if that make any difference to a brief misfire I get sometimes after making a lot of boost. All I needed to change in the tune to have these new injectors purring like a kitten was a quick change to Required Fuel, and a tiny tweak of dead time. BOOM! They work awesomely (but I still get that little brief misfire after making boost sometimes).

As far as power though, I backed boost down to about 15.8psi max, and since the last set of plugs looked pristine at 19psi, added a single degree of timing across most of the "in boost" areas of the main timing table. It really livened the car up. So much so, that the current 6-puck clutch and M5 pressure plate combo can't quite hold the torque consistently.

Which brings me to my Cyber Monday purchase: I got a nice price on a Stage 5 clutch and pressure plate combo from Clutchnet. I've had a good impression of Clutchnet from many years ago working on other projects, so I'm quite excited to get this new clutch in the car and forge ahead toward making more power with it.

**doktor b** · 11-29-2017, 12:43 PM

Dang.
i thought I broke the cyber Monday budget when I scored a set of delrin RTABs for the 328. ($40)
stupid car is wiggly as jello because the rear is only loosely associated with the front.

**philly98540** · 11-29-2017, 12:49 PM

Tis the season to buy yourself those "necessities". Eagerly waiting over here for that clutch to get installed!

**tptrsn** · 11-29-2017, 06:05 PM

Delrin RTABs!!! I like! Do they allow articulation though, or only single axis rotation?

And as for result from the clutch swap, I'm not really sure if that is going to happen soon, or maybe not. My current clutch mostly does the job, and I am kind of considering prohibiting the 540 from the garage for a while so I can work on the trans adapter/TH400 install into the LRS...

**doktor b** · 11-29-2017, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by tptrsn

Delrin RTABs!!! I like! Do they allow articulation though, or only single axis rotation?

And as for result from the clutch swap, I'm not really sure if that is going to happen soon, or maybe not. My current clutch mostly does the job, and I am kind of considering prohibiting the 540 from the garage for a while so I can work on the trans adapter/TH400 install into the LRS...

I’m assuming very little twisting will be allowed. But meh. They’ve got to be better than what I’m running now.
Right now, I can throttle down and the car shifts left, lift and it shifts right. And heaven help me if I drive over grooved pavement.

**tptrsn** · 11-30-2017, 10:44 AM

For sure DokB, you should be able to actually just go down the road with those installed. Sometimes I think we forget what a nice luxury it is to have a car just go down the road instead of having to "drive it" every instant. My E39 required constant driving when my rear wheel bearing(s) were bad and going bad.

On another topic, does anyone have any thoughts or information regarding some upgraded valve springs for the M62? It's just a hunch, but I suspect mine may be struggling a little bit at this point. Normally stiffer valve springs are something I like to do, but it's another area in which the M62 "challenges"...

If no one has any good ideas ready to go, I suspect I can just measure open and closed heights, ID and OD, and give BC or someone a call.

**1999 540i m** · 11-30-2017, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by tptrsn

For sure DokB, you should be able to actually just go down the road with those installed. Sometimes I think we forget what a nice luxury it is to have a car just go down the road instead of having to "drive it" every instant. My E39 required constant driving when my rear wheel bearing(s) were bad and going bad.

On another topic, does anyone have any thoughts or information regarding some upgraded valve springs for the M62? It's just a hunch, but I suspect mine may be struggling a little bit at this point. Normally stiffer valve springs are something I like to do, but it's another area in which the M62 "challenges"...

If no one has any good ideas ready to go, I suspect I can just measure open and closed heights, ID and OD, and give BC or someone a call.

The 4.6 springs are a different part number, I suspect they are stiffer, for the higher valve lift. I could be wrong

**philly98540** · 11-30-2017, 11:34 AM

You suspect valve float? Odd.

I've not seen that on my car with a 6800 redline. Nor have I heard of people getting float.

**tptrsn** · 11-30-2017, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by 1999 540i m

The 4.6 springs are a different part number, I suspect they are stiffer, for the higher valve lift. I could be wrong

Interesting, thanks! You wouldn't have any hanging around for measuring would you? I have numerous M62b44 heads sitting around I could yank a spring out of for comparison at my sprint car shop, or if you have a place nearby?

Originally Posted by philly98540

You suspect valve float? Odd.

I've not seen that on my car with a 6800 redline. Nor have I heard of people getting float.

It could be nothing, and I'm not sure lack of spring pressure always really obvious, but I just feel a little lack of "sharpness" at the top end. It's just something I'm sort of thinking ahead for when I build a new motor, or even just yank the current motor for re-sealing or whatever. Very possibly what I'm sensing is just that I'm pushing too far outside of the powerband afforded by the stock cams. That is something else I'm not accustomed to, haha...

**philly98540** · 11-30-2017, 11:53 AM

VE drops off above 5800. Your boost is level, so you feel that drop off more than me. My boost goes up to help offset the VE losses up top. More cam needed to fix this!