BlackPearl's V2 Build: The Steed and the 69 sxe

[chikinhed]

Sorry for high jacking the thread.

Phil, do you think that you could get away with only the external WG to get 13 psi with the EFR 9180?

How much worse is the EFR 9180 on the TS vs your GT35R on the open T4?

[pbonsalb]

9

Sorry for high jacking the thread.

Phil, do you think that you could get away with only the external WG to get 13 psi with the EFR 9180?

How much worse is the EFR 9180 on the TS vs your GT35R on the open T4?

Probably not. I think CES said it could get as low 16 psi with the 1.45 EWG 9180. I think you would have boost control issues with the 1.05 EWG 9180. That is why I bought the IWG version.

Seems to me that my 0.92 9180 on the ts steed is very close if not equal to my 0.81 gt3582r on the open boostlogic. If you have a test, Ill try todo it. Like 3rd gear from 2000 rpm, when do I hit 15 psi. Or 4th or 5th.

[chikinhed]

I have logged 19 psi at 3180 rpm in 5th starting at 2000 rpm and transient response was about 0.3 sec to go from 0 psi back to 20 psi on a 3rd to 4th shift. It took me 0.5 sec from lifting to get back to 100 TPS, I wasn't trying to will any shifting competitions

That would be great if you could do something similar.

[wazzu70]

Keep in mind the lower A/R turbine housings will have better boost control due to them having higher pressure in the exhaust manifold. Higher P3 pushes more exhaust out the wastegate (assuming its not too small and choking). Its the larger turbine housings that have issues with low boost because the turbines are more efficient and there isnt excess exhaust gas to vent to easily control turbine speed.

[pbonsalb]

The physics makes sense. But I would not tell anyone to try the 1.05 EWG EFR 8374 or 9180 on the ts steed if they want boost control.. And I would not tell anyone to try the IWG 8374 or 9180 on the ts speed if they want boost control. I think you need both the internal and an external WG. Maybe the ts speed can be modified for a 60mm WG, but it will be bigger. The small TS45 has fitment problems.

[chikinhed]

That doesn't make for a simple, cost effective boost control set up. I am excited to hear of the fast spool but I would need the boost control running on pump gas.

How much more power would I be able to make with the 9180 over the GTX35R if I am restricted to pump gas? There will be a bit less back pressure and the torque might not drop as soon up top. It may be a big chunk of change for a 40 whp pump gas gain.

[pbonsalb]

I have logged 19 psi at 3180 rpm in 5th starting at 2000 rpm and transient response was about 0.3 sec to go from 0 psi back to 20 psi on a 3rd to 4th shift. It took me 0.5 sec from lifting to get back to 100 TPS, I wasn't trying to will any shifting competitions

That would be great if you could do something similar.

18+ at 3000 in 5th. Not logged. Using eboost peak hold and letting off at 3000. Tested twice. 18.2 and 18.6 psi. I would expect transient response to be on part with yours. That is where the titanium turbine really shines. You would make more power with the same boost. How far you go on pump plus meth is up to you. I will likely find out what 700 takes and leave it there for my max boost.

[chikinhed]

...........I will likely find out what 700 takes and leave it there for my max boost.

Oh come on Phil, we all know how that works. You may say that now but once summer comes and the car starts to feel slow again your finger will be itching to press that eboost2.

Your data will cost me a lot of my little Canadian dollars.

[jgcm3]

That doesn't make for a simple, cost effective boost control set up. I am excited to hear of the fast spool but I would need the boost control running on pump gas.

How much more power would I be able to make with the 9180 over the GTX35R if I am restricted to pump gas? There will be a bit less back pressure and the torque might not drop as soon up top. It may be a big chunk of change for a 40 whp pump gas gain.

Wanted to chime in here with some more info and data from our own testing with the New Steed TS manifolds.

Major Boost creep was only an issue that we found once we started testing the BW EFR turbos. Before we started using the Borg Warner turbos, we began the initial new steedspeed TS manifold testing with the Garrett GTX35R that was on our shop car at the time, (which as many of you know we have collected the most data on over the years).... and were seeing only 2-3psi creep on a 15 psi spring as measured on our dyno, which we thought was acceptable for a ts manifold using a single divided wg. We unfortunately could not test all types of turbos to know decisively if they would react the same, but testing the DBB Garrett 35R was for us the best candidate to portray how similar turbos would perform with the new steed TS mani based on the data we were seeing. Here is the preliminary data we had with the GTX35R running the turbosmart hypergate 45 wg with a 15psi spring rating (5psi green/grey inner + 10psi green/blue middle)... and the new e36 steed ts prototype.

GTX35R 15psi spring new steed ts mani.jpg


Once we switched over to the EFR tubos and finally began testing them, we saw a significant increase in boost creep, and posted how the extra boost creep issues using the EFR turbos were an issue with this manifold on the forums during the group buy and in our EFR testing threads. We were also testing the EFR turbos on our 335 ST TS project at the same time using a non-gated version of the 335 manifold that steed had designed for us, and were seeing even more drastic creep results with the IWG EFR turbo. To the effect of over 20psi with the WG port wired completely open on the IWG housing with no wg even connected.... When we spoke to Borg Warner Engineers, both on the phone and at SEMA this year, we to no surprise found out that the EFR turbos were simply not designed to run at low boost pressures. I was given the response... "why would you want to run anything lower than 16-18psi with that turbo anyway?" Regardless...This led Leen to suggest trying an external wg version of the 335 manifold with a different design than the E36, mounting the gate by the turbo flange instead of on top of the manifold, and we still found it to have almost identical creep issues as we did with the internally wastegated EFR. Everything kept pointing back to the EFR causing the major creep issues we saw. We decided to verify this one last time by bolting up the GTX35R to the 335 manifold and testing it as well. It crept 5.5psi above spring pressure, slighly higher than the E36 which is what we expected since the 335 head and dual vanos does flow a little better than the e36, plus a slightly different manifold design... We even tested a Tial 44 mvr just to be sure it was not the turbosmart wg causing the issue, and had the same result.

This is when we decided to test out the dual iwg/ewg combo with the 8374 EFR on the 335, and were finally able to regulate any boost pressure we wanted. A 7psi spring combination netted us 7.6 psi peak boost pressure running wg spring only with no ebc. A 10 and 11 psi iwg/ewg spring combination netted us 10.6 peak psi at wg spring pressure... It works. And we also were getting the type of boost response we were hoping for as well. The dual wg combo using the EFR IWG turbo is the best way to retain the spool and response you get with the twinscroll effect, while still being able to regulate very low boost pressures for those of you who wish to accomplish this with the EFR turbos and the E36 manifold. This is exactly what we recommended for Phil to try after having some frustrations with the 8374 EFR creeping badly using the single turbosmart wg. I believe with the 9180 he went with and the IWG/EWG combo, it should be regulating just as our 335 dual wg kit is.

steed335 version2.jpg steed335 dual wg 8374.jpg


For those interested in running the EFR turbo on pump gas and lower boost levels with the dual wg combo for the E36..... We have done extensive testing on our 335 ST TS project and finally have some data we will be posting in our 335 build thread. But I wanted to show everyone here what kind of power and boost response we are seeing using the dual wg combo and the 8374 EFR on the 335, which should hopefully give everyone an idea of what to expect if this is done with the E36. We have been using a simple jb4 backend flash and jb4 ST firmware piggyback currently just to get some preliminary data... But the results are very promising and may shed some light on what to expect power-wise with the 8374.

Here is our latest graph running 24 psi on 93 octane pump gas and 50/50 meth injection with the 8374 EFR IWG housing turbo, turbosmart IWG75 canister and the 335 steedspeed ts manifold with the updated external gate design and tial 44 mvr external gate. 11psi spring pressure in the turbosmart iwg and 10 psi spring in the Tial external. We were able to regulate 10 psi with this setup on just spring pressure using a 2 port mac solenoid, and are up to 24psi currently. Without the dual gates, using only the external wg, we were seeing in excess of 18-20 psi, similar to what we saw with the E36 once we began testing the EFR turbos with it.

560whp/560wtq @ 24psi 93 octane/meth and 418wtq at 3000rpm and 16psi by 3K rpm.

335 CES Twinscroll Steed 8374 EFR dual gate 93 oct meth 24psi.jpg


For those of you wishing to run a minimum of around 16-20 psi, the single wg will work well with the EFR turbo. This is our latest dyno graph running the 9180 EFR 1.45 housing MS109 and meth on our 95 M3 shop car with a 15 psi spring...

866whp/825wtq @ 32psi

9180 newest dyno.jpg

For anyone else not running EFR turbos, has anyone put together a build with a Garrett or Precision Turbo yet? Just curious if other people are having an issues with major boost creep with non EFR turbos, and if this is indeed an issue we need to address with Leen. Get those builds going!

The CES Motorsport Team

[3literheater]

For those of you wishing to run a minimum of around 16-20 psi, the single wg will work well with the EFR turbo. This is our latest dyno graph running the 9180 EFR 1.45 housing MS109 and meth on our 95 M3 shop car with a 15 psi spring...

866whp/825wtq @ 32psi

9180 newest dyno.jpg

The CES Motorsport Team

Do you think running the 9180 with the 1.05 housing and just the external wastegate could regulate down around 18-20psi minimum?

[pbonsalb]

You could be the one to try. I did not want to experiment and then have to buy another housing. Id say it is a possibility, but that to get to the 18-20 after creep, you may have to run a 5 or 7 or 10 psi spring and open early and let it creep. This defeats some of the purpose of buying a fast spooling turbo like the efr. Keep the gate closed until 3 psi before desired boost for fast response. Otherwise buy a slower spooling turbo like a PT or Garrett in your flow range.

I can say definitely not 18-20 with the 1.05 8374. I would guess maybe 18-20 minimum boost with the 1.05 9180. I think almost certainly with the 1.45 9180.

[flexer]

Is there room that you could weld a wastegate onto the exhaust housing for those that have already bought the External wastegate one? With the EFR stainless housings it makes it very simple to do, but I don't know if you have the room. Even if you welded on one of the turbosmart 38mm gates that are super compact, I would bet you could get these setups down to 6-7 psi and be able to crack the gate 3-4 psi before desired boost level and be fine.

Is it possible?

[e30kid89]

Is there room that you could weld a wastegate onto the exhaust housing for those that have already bought the External wastegate one? With the EFR stainless housings it makes it very simple to do, but I don't know if you have the room. Even if you welded on one of the turbosmart 38mm gates that are super compact, I would bet you could get these setups down to 6-7 psi and be able to crack the gate 3-4 psi before desired boost level and be fine. Is it possible?

I think it is, maxpsi does this on their e46 kits and with the higher mounted steed I don't see space being an issue

[pbonsalb]

That would work, but the 1.05 housing is already pretty compact compared to a cast housing. Buying 2 gates and welding to each scroll might be a challenge and expensive. Why not just buy the 0.92 IWG version and also run an external gate? Works perfectly.

[BlackPearlZ]

For anyone else not running EFR turbos, has anyone put together a build with a Garrett or Precision Turbo yet? Just curious if other people are having an issues with major boost creep with non EFR turbos, and if this is indeed an issue we need to address with Leen. Get those builds going!

The CES Motorsport Team

Mine is not an EFR. 29psi on a 14psi spring. I have a feeling the guys running a precision will have it worse based on previous experience with the 666 manifold. I had a 6766 that would creep to 27psi on a 11psi spring. Switched a s366 and and it creeped to about 20.

[chikinhed]

Mine is not an EFR. 29psi on a 14psi spring. I have a feeling the guys running a precision will have it worse based on previous experience with the 666 manifold. I had a 6766 that would creep to 27psi on a 11psi spring. Switched a s366 and and it creeped to about 20.

Uh, that's not a couple psi, are you sure your waste gate lines aren't crossed?

[BlackPearlZ]

Uh, that's not a couple psi, are you sure your waste gate lines aren't crossed?

Pretty hard to mess up with a manual boost controller lol

[vollosso]

How are you liking the turbo?


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[Matutino]

Crap, Im not so sure I want to install it with my GT35R86 turbo, I would hate to get boos creep and having to remove the manifold once again

[Butters Stoch]

Crap, Im not so sure I want to install it with my GT35R86 turbo, I would hate to get boos creep and having to remove the manifold once again

It will be fine.

[e30kid89]

Crap, Im not so sure I want to install it with my GT35R86 turbo, I would hate to get boos creep and having to remove the manifold once again

That turbine wheel if it doesn't flow a ton should help control boost due to its small size (restriction)

[BlackPearlZ]

How are you liking the turbo?

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I like it a lot. Even going up in size, it is still way more responsive than what I had before. For the price I think it is great.

I have a new hood coming in on Monday. Hoping to have it painted before Christmas. I'm still trying to track down interior pieces (rear seat bottom, and a pillars), and still trying to figure out why the a/c doesn't come on.

Overall, this project is about done. I'm already thinking about what is next.

[chikinhed]

My comment was full of sarcasm if you missed that.

I have most of a Dove M3 interior that I should probably sell if you need something.

[BlackPearlZ]

My comment was full of sarcasm if you missed that.

I have most of a Dove M3 interior that I should probably sell if you need something.

Oh I know. But other with different interests might take it seriously.

I'm looking for black

[BlackPearlZ]

So A/c is working. There was a relay in the tec3 harness that had one connector unplugged. Plugged it in and all was well. I found a rear seat cushion, so interior is complete minus A-pillars. I'll be ordering those soon. My new hood is also going to be painted after the New year.

I'll also be selling my id1000's pretty soon. I'm going to upgrade to the id1700's. The 1000's just aren't enough above 5500 rpm.