E39 m5: To be, or not to be

[geargrinder]

LOL. DUDE, we have been through this before.

And you just made a bunch of German and Dutch people sad/furious

Lets make it an Erdinger, or Franziskaner, or Julius Echter.

[TxDarth]

This lmao

Definition/illustration of progression.

[NordmanMg]

Well I don't want to be the cause of that! Ok...a couple of Heineken and we will call it a day...after all it's a German beer for a German car

Deal man )))

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Definition/illustration of progression.

This pic makes me laugh every time I look at it

[NordmanMg]

What is that button right of a steering wheel on the trim with tire and triangle in it?
TPMS?

[TxDarth]

Yes.

[NordmanMg]

Yes.

Hm, didn't know they had this option,
but since m5 don't have a spare tire it make sense

[dannyzabolotny]

Yeah, pretty much every M5 came with TPMS standard if I remember correctly.

[purplecty]

Isn't it DWS/RPA in the e39?

[dannyzabolotny]

Isn't it DWS/RPA in the e39?

Yeah, it's the system that uses the ABS module to monitor wheel rotation and it can sense when a wheel is flatter than the others. That's why it doesn't show the actual PSI, it just lets you know when to check the tires. It's not a perfect system but it's a bit of extra safety just in case.

[geargrinder]

Yeah and it was weird they didn't offer it for non-M E39's. I can see trimming it off the standard 'quip but for it not to be an option? When otherwise the 540's tended to come standard with tons of everything? Odd.

[angeleye540i]

Ok...now I think you're just trying to make me SUPER JELOUS! Very nice...if you sell it...just saying...my bid is $3.28 more than the next highest bidder...and I'll throw in 2 free Fosters for us to toast the sale! :-)

and I'm 20$ above your bid :p

[angeleye540i]

Yeah and it was weird they didn't offer it for non-M E39's. I can see trimming it off the standard 'quip but for it not to be an option? When otherwise the 540's tended to come standard with tons of everything? Odd.

yeah always wondered that aswell

[dannyzabolotny]

Yeah and it was weird they didn't offer it for non-M E39's. I can see trimming it off the standard 'quip but for it not to be an option? When otherwise the 540's tended to come standard with tons of everything? Odd.

I'm thinking it was a way for them to reinforce the M5's position in the hierarchy, especially here in the US. Think of all the things the 540i didn't get in the US— no servotronic, no EDC, no TPMS, no interesting interior colors (the craziest we got was Slate Green), no M5 paint colors (whereas in Europe you could get a Carbon Black E39), no extended leather/full leather, and no LSD. It was all deliberate. Not giving the 540i too many options also made it a lot easier for dealers to order hundreds of them in pretty standard configurations.

[angeleye540i]

For sure, I mean there's no doubt they could've also made the 540 faster out of the gate fairly easily, (Little more compression maybe slightly different cams etc) but they didn't want it stepping on the toes of the M5...

[dannyzabolotny]

For sure, I mean there's no doubt they could've also made the 540 faster out of the gate fairly easily, (Little more compression maybe slightly different cams etc) but they didn't want it stepping on the toes of the M5...

For sure! The 540i was deliberately made slower, and the manuals came with CDVs to make them feel less sporty. Look at the 4.6 that came in the X5, it only had a .2 liter bump in displacement but managed to make 350hp. The 4.4 could have easily been pushed to 300-310hp without too much trouble but then it would be getting a little too close to the M5.

[angeleye540i]

That's funny you brought up the 4.6 I was going to mention that but I knew somebody else would hah

[geargrinder]

No. They didn't sandbag the 540 on power. Remember guys, we're all just driving what BMW would have considered "mid-range luxury sedan", not a sports car.

They just didn't see it as being positioned or accepted as a particularly sporty model, and, back in the day the 300hp was pretty damn respectable, esp after they 'facelifted' it with the TU updates for more torque. The 540 was the sedate well to do gentlemans more powerful 5-series, not a sports car, they had a sports car for the 5-series already, and it was pretty distinct. Some little 10-20hp bump would hardly have made much difference to the M5 although you can argue they already sandbagged the HP rating numbers to keep them under 300 number, however BMW is famous for fiddling fake HP declarations (like the "333hp" for the M3 S54... somebody's little joke...)

The proof is in the fact that you can see how much hassle we have hot-rodding them ourselves - there's no big gains to be had that they are hiding. A sandbagged car would be WAY easier for us to tune. It wasn't a matter of "keeping the 540 down" it was a matter of "this is the big torquey luxo variant and if a guy wants a sport one, we have the M5 for him". Why bother working hard on something that was barely better than the 540 that really there was a micro market for? For certain other cars there IS this proof - cars where a flash tune makes tons of power (ex: 335s vs M3 ) then sure yes there's evidence then that they were sandbagging to keep the expensive sports cars differentiated.

The 4.6 was indeed a bit of a surprise, basically taking the Alpina motor tweaks at the very end of the M62Tu's life to extend it just a wee bit and make a few premium models distinctive, since they hadn't decided to go whole hog with an X5M. But it wasn't like there was an active sandbagging and then they "loosed the hounds" suddenly. This was more of a "how do we do something for a small update at the end of life for the E53 and E52 without spending much money?" And Alpina had already done the work to figure out the "M62 plus" concept, so BMW didn't have to do much but take it and get it certified in the chasses. Wasn't like they were holding the 4.6 back from us the whole time... Alpina just released it in '99, so a timeline of 2-3 yrs for a major OEM to get a new powerplant into a car is par for the course (crap happens slow as shiz in the auto industry). Remember they have to pay for emissions and crash testing testing and certification for any new drivetrain - it's hugely costly and a hassle and they don't like to do it just to sell a handful of cars so its actually surprising they did it at all for those...

Re: dropping LSD - they dropped LSD for ALL cars as a line item option back in the 90's. Had nothing particular to do with the 540, they decided (as opposed to in past where it was an orderable option for almost every range...) that LSD would be one of the unique M features to make them more special.

CDV is to make them less sporty? Dude you are so forking off base with that. EVERY USA MANUAL from the late 1990's on got CDV's. Has nothing to do with "feeling sporty",. it was some moronic decision in Munich that Americans are unable to launch manuals and thinking the CDV helped that (doesn't - just makes them shift shizzy and eat clutches). M3's and M5's got CDV's for USA. My M3 still had it when I bought it. NOTHING to do with product positioning, just a dumb ass decision back at HQ for all USA cuz they think we retard drivers. (OK they're right about that but the CDV is still stoopit).

Danny what you're right about is the list of options simplifying for the douche dealers who don't want too much complexity. Very much true. I can see some of those (servotronic) being "too complicated and technical for (dumb) Americans".

I've just always thought the TPMS would have been easy to sell, easy to install (it's a handful of wires, a module and a switch, ties right into the DSC...) and a viable option for dealers. Hell if they prewired it (they didnt') it could be a dealer-installed option that dealers could have upsold and made cash on.

[dannyzabolotny]

My comments in bold/italic:

No. They didn't sandbag the 540 on power. Remember guys, we're all just driving what BMW would have considered "mid-range luxury sedan", not a sports car.

And yet I've seen the 540i referred to as a sports sedan many times when it was new, but that could go either way I suppose.

They just didn't see it as being positioned or accepted as a particularly sporty model, and, back in the day the 300hp was pretty damn respectable, esp after they 'facelifted' it with the TU updates for more torque. The 540 was the sedate well to do gentlemans more powerful 5-series, not a sports car, they had a sports car for the 5-series already, and it was pretty distinct. Some little 10-20hp bump would hardly have made much difference to the M5 although you can argue they already sandbagged the HP rating numbers to keep them under 300 number, however BMW is famous for fiddling fake HP declarations (like the "333hp" for the M3 S54... somebody's little joke...)

Fair enough, 300hp was decent for the time, especially in 1997 when it debuted.

The proof is in the fact that you can see how much hassle we have hot-rodding them ourselves - there's no big gains to be had that they are hiding. A sandbagged car would be WAY easier for us to tune. It wasn't a matter of "keeping the 540 down" it was a matter of "this is the big torquey luxo variant and if a guy wants a sport one, we have the M5 for him". Why bother working hard on something that was barely better than the 540 that really there was a micro market for? For certain other cars there IS this proof - cars where a flash tune makes tons of power (ex: 335s vs M3 ) then sure yes there's evidence then that they were sandbagging to keep the expensive sports cars differentiated.

The 4.6 was indeed a bit of a surprise, basically taking the Alpina motor tweaks at the very end of the M62Tu's life to extend it just a wee bit and make a few premium models distinctive, since they hadn't decided to go whole hog with an X5M. But it wasn't like there was an active sandbagging and then they "loosed the hounds" suddenly. This was more of a "how do we do something for a small update at the end of life for the E53 and E52 without spending much money?" And Alpina had already done the work to figure out the "M62 plus" concept, so BMW didn't have to do much but take it and get it certified in the chasses. Wasn't like they were holding the 4.6 back from us the whole time... Alpina just released it in '99, so a timeline of 2-3 yrs for a major OEM to get a new powerplant into a car is par for the course (crap happens slow as shiz in the auto industry). Remember they have to pay for emissions and crash testing testing and certification for any new drivetrain - it's hugely costly and a hassle and they don't like to do it just to sell a handful of cars so its actually surprising they did it at all for those...

Makes me wonder if we could swap the 4.6 cams in and see decent increases? DUDMD just got a 22hp increase in the upper end with a 4" MAF and an intake so I don't think we've fully explored the M62tu just yet. The market for M62tu hot-rodding is pretty small— I'd say that's the reason it's moved slowly, not necessarily the lack of capabilities in the engine. The fact that Alpina got an extra 60hp out of the M62tu without radically changing it up is testament to that.

Re: dropping LSD - they dropped LSD for ALL cars as a line item option back in the 90's. Had nothing particular to do with the 540, they decided (as opposed to in past where it was an orderable option for almost every range...) that LSD would be one of the unique M features to make them more special.

Fair point, though I think keeping it as an option would have been nice. I doubt it would have cut into M5 sales too much, and it would have made the 540i a lot better.

CDV is to make them less sporty? Dude you are so forking off base with that. EVERY USA MANUAL from the late 1990's on got CDV's. Has nothing to do with "feeling sporty",. it was some moronic decision in Munich that Americans are unable to launch manuals and thinking the CDV helped that (doesn't - just makes them shift shizzy and eat clutches). M3's and M5's got CDV's for USA. My M3 still had it when I bought it. NOTHING to do with product positioning, just a dumb ass decision back at HQ for all USA cuz they think we retard drivers. (OK they're right about that but the CDV is still stoopit).

The M5 didn't come with a CDV as far as I know. Not sure about the M3 though.

Danny what you're right about is the list of options simplifying for the douche dealers who don't want too much complexity. Very much true. I can see some of those (servotronic) being "too complicated and technical for (dumb) Americans".

And dealers don't like options, because it makes ordering cars a pain. They'd rather get a dozen cars with the same configurations and sell them without any drama.

I've just always thought the TPMS would have been easy to sell, easy to install (it's a handful of wires, a module and a switch, ties right into the DSC...) and a viable option for dealers. Hell if they prewired it (they didnt') it could be a dealer-installed option that dealers could have upsold and made cash on.

[geargrinder]

Agreed all around. Dropping LSD as an option was one of the kind of early sign of the slip of BMW toward being VW / Fiat / GM.

I think it's well accepted a cam change might help the M62 - after all the S62 gets gains in good part from having dual VANOS. Shame it's hard to source Alpine cams and that you need to notch the pistons. There used to be some for non VANOS and machine race shop operations like VAC made power from cams before but I think here just wasn't a market big enough.

[XAlt]

The all new BMW M4 CSLGTSR Compettion Package with 666hp

Calling it

[angeleye540i]

Let's not forget the 540i6 was the fastest midsize sedan in the world until the E39 M5 came out in 2000, so for three years it had the record... Not saying it got sandbag for power by any means I was just pointing out the fact that it wouldn't have costed them (BMW), any money to make any more power with it, they could've changed the crankshaft a little bit and it would've been more powerful, but that and other things were not done, for the reasons you said grinder, it wasn't the intention... But also leaving room to not step on the toes of its big brother

[XAlt]

Let's not forget the 540i6 was the fastest midsize sedan in the world until the E39 M5 came out in 2000, so for three years it had the record... Not saying it got sandbag for power by any means I was just pointing out the fact that it wouldn't have costed them (BMW), any money to make any more power with it, they could've changed the crankshaft a little bit and it would've been more powerful, but that and other things were not done, for the reasons you said grinder, it wasn't the intention... But also leaving room to not step on the toes of its big brother

They could've just put some ITBs on the M62, and hit the stroker. But they needed to showcase Dual VANOS and dunk on the competition.

[StRaNgEdAyS]

BMW Australia for some reason didn't import any manual E39s here, apart from the M5.
It always struck me as a strange road to take, unless they were deliberately trying to up sell the people who wanted that sportier feel to the M5...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[XAlt]

BMW Australia for some reason didn't import any manual E39s here, apart from the M5.
It always struck me as a strange road to take, unless they were deliberately trying to up sell the people who wanted that sportier feel to the M5...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Because the 5 was a luxury sedan with a huge price tag over there. The manuals never really sold well even over here, and the rich Japanese buyers who love the D caused further demand for autos in your market.

[dannyzabolotny]

BMW Australia for some reason didn't import any manual E39s here, apart from the M5.
It always struck me as a strange road to take, unless they were deliberately trying to up sell the people who wanted that sportier feel to the M5...

I forget, is Australia generally pro-manual, or is it mostly automatics there like in the US? Perhaps BMW Australia was positioning the E39 as more of a luxury car in Australia hence them all being automatic? I do notice that the E39s in Australia tend to be the higher models like the 530i/535i/540i as opposed to Europe where you had 520i's everywhere.