I can not get remote key function to work (and no it's not initialization issue)

[BMW540san]

***Fixed!*** check end of thread

This in on my X5 but it it uses pretty much the same EWS/FZV procedure and Xoutpost is not as knowledgeable as this forum.

Intro:

My X5 came with 2 remote keys and one spare one. The one of remotes worked perfectly and the other one was dead even though I tried re initialization. Of course, I managed to loose the one good key (long story) and after cutting the dead key and replacing the battery, it did work for a while but then it died.

So I pulled the trigger and got the new key from dealer even though I was pretty much sure it's not the key issue but I wanted one new one. So of course, key came registered to my X5 and it does everything other than remote function.

At this point I can go to dealer since I confirmed it's under 2 year warranty but I despise my local dealer and of course I believe it's not the key.

Here is where it gets confusing. According to one screen on P.A. Soft the new key which is number #4 is enabled but can not complete initialization which would of course enable the remote function:

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But according to this screen all keys are enabled and programmed:

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I also suspected remote control antenna amplifier in rear trunk which uses window heater as antenna which has been known to be a problem although rare one. I checked the power to it and even tried used amplifier but with no results. In this screen FBZV (which I believe is FZV remote control amplifier) is shown as not found but I'm not sure if that really is an issue.

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Any ideas?

[Qsilver7]

In your 1st pic...can key #4 be "enabled"? It appears to be grayed-out in the far right column where it says "DISABLE KEY". Can you get that field to look like all the other ones in the that column?

Hmmm, I would be curious as to why FBZV can't be found...you are correct, that is the amplifier that receives the 315 MHz transmitted RF signal from the key to the antenna in the right rear cargo window. The RF signal is then sent to the FBZV amp...which then sends that data up to the GM.

The FZV (FBZV) antenna is located in the right rear window on the Tourings and SAVs/SUVs. Then the FBZV amp (on the e53) is located at the top center of the tail gate:

{item #2 is the amp/trap circuit for the e53's seen in pic above and diagram below}

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E5...nna_diversity/

[BMW540san]

Qsilver, thank you for your as usual good info.

Key #4 is the new key I got and it was in the ignition at time of the test therefore I couldn't disable or enable it. It's actually another proof that there is nothing wrong with the key as if it was, there would be an option to enable it.

I did enable and disable all 3 keys just to test them and each of them responds correctly. When disabled, none of them will start the car.

To clarify, key #1 is the key I cut open and even though is probably damaged and battery is bad, it still does everything other than remote. Key #3 is the mechanical key only and it also actually works perfect since it doesn't have remote feature.

I did read about some people having issues with damaged wiring going to FZV in the area of boot between body and trunk, but mine does have 12v at the FZV amplifier. I'm suspecting that there is some sort of corruption in signal between EWS and FZV but my knowledge is limited in that field.

[Qsilver7]

If the key starts the car with no issues at all..then remove ews as being an issue. EWS/FZV/DWA are totally different systems...so don't get trapped into conflating the two systems in your attempt to solve them issue.

EWS operates on a 125 KHz radio frequency and communication takes place between the key's transponder, ring antenna, EWS control module, and DME.

FZV/FBZV & DWA (when using the remote key) is transmitted over a 315 MHz RF signal (in North America). The signal get's tranmitted by the key, to the antenna in the rear cargo window, to the FBZV amp, then up to the GM. The GM then sends commands to the central locking system (fzv) and the anti-theft alarm siren system (dwa) to lock/unlock the vehicle and arm/disarm the alarm.

EWS/FZV/DWA may all be incorporated into the remote key...but again, these 3 systems are autonomous...but work in conjunction with each other...but can failure within its own system. Even though fzv & dwa transmits over the same RF signal, share some of the same monitors (like the trunk & door actuators) and are controlled by the GM...they too are 2 separate systems.

Trying to diagnose and separate the operations of each system has to be done sometimes to narrow down issues. For instance, the shared trunk & door monitors of fzv & dwa can usually be separated by manually arming dwa using the driver's door lock cylinder.

If the dwa red status led illuminates and flashes normally if you manually lock the vehicle...then dwa is functioning properly. If you get the fast flashing...then one of the DWA monitors is remaining open. If that monitor is one of the shared ones with fzv...then that could be the reason remote lock/unlock & arm/disarm isn't working.

But if regular/manual locking of the vehicle is okay...butremote operations of the key ends in failure...then the issue is probably FBZV related (if dwa is okay). The issue could be any of the components previously mentioned...from the key, to the antenna, to the amp, and locking actuator, fzv fuse, busted bowden cable (fuel filler door), then onto the GM itself.

[BMW540san]

Thank you for more great info.

As you said and I definitely believe it to be the case, EWS seems to be operating properly and the last thing I'd do is to start poking around and have car ending up dead.

P.A. Soft is great tool but I'm treading lightly as I simply lack the knowledge of programming. The good thing is that car starts and lock / unlocks manually so I'm not going to rush. I'll do smoe more testing and check some of things you've mentioned.

[Fx323i]

So you are saying the amplifier gets the power? Did you check the fuse no. 53 and it is good?

[BMW540san]

So you are saying the amplifier gets the power? Did you check the fuse no. 53 and it is good?

Yes, it gets 12v even when key is out of ignition and fuse is good (it's different fuse number since on E53, but same system).

[Fx323i]

Ah, sorry, was not very careful about the car as I saw an E39 in your avatar and we are in E39 group. The system is the same, though.

If the receiver is just fine or appears to be, I would suspect you are making some mistake in the pairing procedure. I personally would just check if also the key is of the same frequency.

Make sure you do it the right way:
1. unlock the car
2. get in the car and close all doors, even the trunk
3. put the key (any key) in the ignition, turn ignition on and off within 5 seconds and get the key out again
4. take the first key you want to programme, press and hold UNLOCK while pressing 3x briefly LOCK on the key. After you pressed LOCK the third time, you can release the UNLOCK button.
5. car should confirm a successful pairing by locking and unlocking itself

[BMW540san]

Thank you for trying to help me but that is not the issue. I've tried zillion times with every imaginable combination and it simply won't work. Something is going on with between GM and FZV while EWS is ok since key starts the car and locks / unlocks manually.

Ah, sorry, was not very careful about the car as I saw an E39 in your avatar and we are in E39 group. The system is the same, though.

If the receiver is just fine or appears to be, I would suspect you are making some mistake in the pairing procedure. I personally would just check if also the key is of the same frequency.

Make sure you do it the right way:
1. unlock the car
2. get in the car and close all doors, even the trunk
3. put the key (any key) in the ignition, turn ignition on and off within 5 seconds and get the key out again
4. take the first key you want to programme, press and hold UNLOCK while pressing 3x briefly LOCK on the key. After you pressed LOCK the third time, you can release the UNLOCK button.
5. car should confirm a successful pairing by locking and unlocking itself

[Fx323i]

Does your key in ignition warning work? There is only one more thing besides one of the FZV/GM units or a bus problem (would have shown up in instrument cluster diagnostic as a short circuit on one of the buses) that I can think of when remote is impossible to pair. If your ignition warning works and keeps saying the key is in the lock even if it is not, or it does not anything (meaning the function itself is still working but disabled - there is no visible key in lock warning but it still prevents to do anything about remote).

I personally would firstly double check for fuses which can influence the remote control:
F11, F16 and F39 (according to the wiring diagram I believe the F39 takes care of the key in ignition warning).
F84 and F86 for the remote control itself and tailgate motor
F20, F24 and F60 for the door modules and rear door actuators (if your car locks and unlocks via driver's door properly, only F20 could have been a problem since it is for a door module on the driver's side)

EDIT: For Qsilver7 - no, he can not make key no. 4 appear with the "disable" key function while that key is in the ignition. This function only does prevent the lost key from starting. He would need to have another key in the ignition lock (which will have the disable function grayed out for safety reasons). It has literally nothing to do with the remote. In case he would like to test if the key is working, he can try to pair it with another car with the same frequency of remote and FZV system, eg. E36, E38, E39, E46, E53, E85, E83, all of them, if they are with 3-button remote (which means radio, for US spec cars 315 MHz frequency). It does not matter if the car has a rubber-button key or the diamond key. Only number of buttons and frequency, type of FZV matters. Newer cars with diamond key (E60, E61) have the key of the same shape, but they can not be paired with the FZV type key, as they have CAS2 and the key is paired also to the remote in the transponder data.

[BMW540san]

Thanks again but yes, everything that you mentioned is checked and it works. Besides the usual sounds when key is in or out etc....P.A.Soft shows key enabled, transmitting etc...I'm simply baffled.
And yes, your other response to Qsilver7 is correct too. All 3 keys are working flawlessly other than remote feature on 2 main ones and I can disable / enable any of them through P.A.soft as long as they're not in ignition at the time of doing it which is normal.

Does your key in ignition warning work? There is only one more thing besides one of the FZV/GM units or a bus problem (would have shown up in instrument cluster diagnostic as a short circuit on one of the buses) that I can think of when remote is impossible to pair. If your ignition warning works and keeps saying the key is in the lock even if it is not, or it does not anything (meaning the function itself is still working but disabled - there is no visible key in lock warning but it still prevents to do anything about remote).

I personally would firstly double check for fuses which can influence the remote control:
F11, F16 and F39 (according to the wiring diagram I believe the F39 takes care of the key in ignition warning).
F84 and F86 for the remote control itself and tailgate motor
F20, F24 and F60 for the door modules and rear door actuators (if your car locks and unlocks via driver's door properly, only F20 could have been a problem since it is for a door module on the driver's side)

EDIT: For Qsilver7 - no, he can not make key no. 4 appear with the "disable" key function while that key is in the ignition. This function only does prevent the lost key from starting. He would need to have another key in the ignition lock (which will have the disable function grayed out for safety reasons). It has literally nothing to do with the remote. In case he would like to test if the key is working, he can try to pair it with another car with the same frequency of remote and FZV system, eg. E36, E38, E39, E46, E53, E85, E83, all of them, if they are with 3-button remote (which means radio, for US spec cars 315 MHz frequency). It does not matter if the car has a rubber-button key or the diamond key. Only number of buttons and frequency, type of FZV matters. Newer cars with diamond key (E60, E61) have the key of the same shape, but they can not be paired with the FZV type key, as they have CAS2 and the key is paired also to the remote in the transponder data.

[Fx323i]

The information "transmitting" is relevant to the transponder (immo, EWS), not the remote. If you had INPA, there is other things possible to check (there is a receiver test, which works in case you do have a known working remote, not dependent if from that particular car). If you have other BMW suitable as mentioned, you can test if the keys will pair with that another car for remote operation.

[Qsilver7]

... If you have other BMW suitable as mentioned, you can test if the keys will pair with that [other] car for remote operation.

That's an excellent point. An attempt to initialize your remote keys to another BMW (models as mentioned by Fx323i) would reveal if the issue is with the key or with other components in your car.

One more question to ask...and I apologize if it's one of the things you've covered already...

...are you only inserting the 1st key into the ignition? The other remote keys do not need to be inserted into the ignition when you go to program them...if you do...each time you insert a key into the ignition and do step 1 of the programming sequence...it will remove any previous remote keys that had been programmed (which would be the 1st key you just did). The 2nd-4th remote is programmed starting where you start pressing & holding the buttons on the key.

[BMW540san]

No apologies necessary and thank you both for trying to help. I'd be an ass to start complaining about trivial things whne somebody is trying to help.

Unfortunately both of my other cars are old style key and they also have non working remotes. I believe I can find somebody local to try out on his car and that's an excellent idea.

Yes, I'm aware of procedure where only the master key need to go into ignition. Here is the problem though: My other non working remote is the key #1 (master key) and I've tried all different combination of using it first, not using it at all, using key #4 (new key) first and then in succession etc... None of them will work but they all start the car and manually lock / unlock so I know EWS is good.

I'm really starting to believe that something is up between GM and FZV.

Thanks again guys.

[Fx323i]

It does not matter which key you put in ignition, it does not need to be the key no. 1 in EWS. I am 100% sure as I do pair the keys all the time and the key number does not matter.

Since the remote is EWS independent, the key no. 1 refers to remote key no. 1. The keys get their numbers every time they are paired, and they get them in order of pairing. This is also why you need to pair all the remotes you have at once without turning the second and other keys in the ignition.

As you do have the BMW Scanner, are there any faults in the IKE (cluster)? There might also be a problem elsewhere, eg. ignition switch.

Old or new style key does not matter. If it has the same frequency and system (EWS, not CAS), it does not matter. You can try pairing the X5 key to your old style E39, no problem.

When giving advices, we always start with the simplest as we do not want any point to be missed. You'd be surprised, how many cars were disassembled and ended up at some junkyard for a fuse problem or so (bought a non-starting, very rare E36 316g this way... well... got it for free as it spent two years at "specialists" and they did not repair it. I fixed it in 5 minutes - it was a fuse and a bent bulb holder for one tail light, which caused a short circuit).

Qsilver7:

that [other] car

Thanks. I am not a native English speaker and sometimes I make mistakes. I do not speak English very often in person and if I do, I speak with Germans and Japanese, which does not improve my English very much, I need to say.

EDIT: With the old style key it is very easy to diagnose the remotes. Those keys have a LED on their body, which shows the operation. The LED flashes once every time you press a button. When you hit TRUNK and LOCK at once, it should keep being on for 1 second to prove the key is working well. In case of an unsuccessful pairing the LED flashes several times after attempting to pair.

[Qsilver7]

...I'm really starting to believe that something is up between GM and FZV.

Thanks again guys.

On that last note...there is that whole thing with the GM assigning a new "rolling" code when a programming session is initiated (see 1st paragraph in the programming instructions below). The question to find out...is your GM assigning the new code when you initiate programming. Hmmm.

[BMW540san]

Guys, thanks again to both of you.
I was driving by mu local dealer today and came in. They were very nice and checked with other key free of charge. I talked directly to very nice and knowledgeable tech and he did everything in front of me.
There is no doubt: Nothing wrong with key but it's the car issue. Of course, I'm looking at 1 hour (rougly $130) if I want them to look further.
I do 99% of my own stuff but this is simply beyond me. I may pull the trigger with them and go from there.
To be honest, I was unfair in my description of them in OP. It all depends who you deal with it.
I will post update regardless and maybe this helps somebody in the future.

[Fx323i]

/This is a Czech idiom/ Before you thow the gun in a field /end of idiom meaning before giving up/, are there any fault codes in EWS, IKE and General module (ZKE in PA Soft)? Even the ones which seem not to be related might help.

[golfgod]

Quick question...can you change which key is the "master" key #1?

Then disable or even delete the other keys except one?

I'm certainly not an expert like the other guys but I am subscribed to this thread because I want to see it resolved and love troubleshooting

[Fx323i]

No position in the EWS is "master". Where did this rumor have the beginning? Why would you want to change the key position? It is really just a position (let's say order, in which the keys are handed over to the customer) in the EWS unit, not easy to do, but possible with special tools. I do not see any reason to do it, though.

The remote order can be changed easily. It is the order in which you initialize the remotes. The first remote paired is No. 1 for car key memory operation then.

[golfgod]

No position in the EWS is "master". Where did this rumor have the beginning? Why would you want to change the key position? It is really just a position (let's say order, in which the keys are handed over to the customer) in the EWS unit, not easy to do, but possible with special tools. I do not see any reason to do it, though. The remote order can be changed easily. It is the order in which you initialize the remotes. The first remote paired is No. 1 for car key memory operation then.

Exactly...the only reason I say that and to delete the others is to try something that I don't think has been tried...use only one key to see if the remote works that way. In my experience with radio frequencies and control units, sometimes there is a finite number of transponders that will communicate in the firmware.
Just my .02 that sounds like it's worth .002.....not trying to start a pi$$ing contest, just thinking outside the box and trying something

[Fx323i]

Remote has nothing to do with transponder. It is completely independent. In older style key, these also were separate parts. In the diamond key from 9/1999 up, they are both on one board, but the only shared part of the circuit is the coil, which gets power to recharge the battery and also is the RFID communication part for the transponder.

The number of transponders applicable for immo is finite, the maximum is 10 keys able to start the car. Has nothing to do with the remote, though. But your idea has a point. I would rather believe there is something else working on the same frequency, which transmits signal and this way blocks the remote control unit to accept the key. This can be anything on the same frequency - a key from another car, garage opener etc. You can test it to prove I am right, if you have two cars (even different brands) with the same remote fob frequency. Take a key from the other car, press and hold any button on it. At the time the button is held, you will not be able to operate your car using your remote. The receiver will be confused as it will get both signals on the same frequency and will not know which one to choose, so it rather won't accept any.

Just to clarify - master key is a name of the key, not a position of it. You can order a new Master key at the dealer's. It will have a number following the number of last obtained key. But I get your point as with some cars, there is a master transponder, which allows some more operations like remote pairing, transponder programming etc. This is not a case of any BMW including the newest ones with CAS4 system.

[golfgod]

Remote has nothing to do with transponder. It is completely independent. In older style key, these also were separate parts. In the diamond key from 9/1999 up, they are both on one board, but the only shared part of the circuit is the coil, which gets power to recharge the battery and also is the RFID communication part for the transponder. The number of transponders applicable for immo is finite, the maximum is 10 keys able to start the car. Has nothing to do with the remote, though. But your idea has a point. I would rather believe there is something else working on the same frequency, which transmits signal and this way blocks the remote control unit to accept the key. This can be anything on the same frequency - a key from another car, garage opener etc. You can test it to prove I am right, if you have two cars (even different brands) with the same remote fob frequency. Take a key from the other car, press and hold any button on it. At the time the button is held, you will not be able to operate your car using your remote. The receiver will be confused as it will get both signals on the same frequency and will not know which one to choose, so it rather won't accept any. Just to clarify - master key is a name of the key, not a position of it. You can order a new Master key at the dealer's. It will have a number following the number of last obtained key. But I get your point as with some cars, there is a master transponder, which allows some more operations like remote pairing, transponder programming etc. This is not a case of any BMW including the newest ones with CAS4 system.

Excellent thanks for the clarification...I wonder if his garage door opener might unlock the car lol

[Fx323i]

It definitely can not as it can not learn the rolling code from the unit. The idea is, if the car has a garage opener in the rearview mirror as an equipment or laid somewhere (or anything else with the same frequency), what if the button on it is stuck? Then it would send the signal all the time and block the remote key reception.

[golfgod]

It definitely can not as it can not learn the rolling code from the unit. The idea is, if the car has a garage opener in the rearview mirror as an equipment or laid somewhere (or anything else with the same frequency), what if the button on it is stuck? Then it would send the signal all the time and block the remote key reception.

good point and I forgot about the rolling code...I actually read that in the Bentley last night