6-speed manual swap into e36 m3

[m3j0n]

I know the common swap is euro e36 m3 6-speed or e46 m3 6-speed, but just wondering if anyone has swapped in a late model e46 330i 6-speed tranny. Havent seen any threads regarding that specific tranny and would love to know why. Are they weak and cant hold the power or is the gearing bad? Just curious.

[TheJordanWhitte]

I know the common swap is euro e36 m3 6-speed or e46 m3 6-speed, but just wondering if anyone has swapped in a late model e46 330i 6-speed tranny. Havent seen any threads regarding that specific tranny and would love to know why. Are they weak and cant hold the power or is the gearing bad? Just curious.

Check this out.
http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/s...onversion-kit/

[jvit27]

There are threads about putting a ZF GS6-37BZ into E36's. You just need to use the search feature, or google, properly. It's how I figured out how to retrofit it and I don't even own a repair shop!!!

[MarketMaster]

Jon, let me know what you find out. I'm super interested as well. Looking to install into my 80k mile 95

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[RRSperry]

I've swapped in a E46 M3 box, so I have some insights. If you aren't running a 3.38 or shorter diff, don't bother.

1.) what power level are you dealing with? Do you need the slightly beefier M box?

2) the M box is noisy, and clunkyer...

any way you do it, you need a new clutch, pressure plate, t.o. bearing, tranny support, a slave, shifter carrier and shifter, and selector rod, driveshaft, and while your at it, center support bearing, guibo, cv rebuild.... plus plus plus...

the gs6 will work just as well, be smoother, quieter, and cost less. All other part are still required, just a little different than for the M box.

[m3j0n]

Check this out.
http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/s...onversion-kit/

yes, I saw that during my searches - thanks for the link. Has absolutely no info about hp/tq limitations or real world experience/reviews. Definitely don't want to go through the work to find out it cant handle anything more than stock-ish power when it is significantly cheaper than a e46 m3 6-speed tranny. I was hoping to get some input from some guys on here. This is the first time Im considering the 6-speed swap in an e36.

Jon, let me know what you find out. I'm super interested as well. Looking to install into my 80k mile 95

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

will do. as soon as I find anything helpful, I will let you know. Its all about figuring out what clutch/flywheel components to use and what the limitations are of the tranny... The purpose of my post was to see if anyone had pushed it on an e36, maybe a FI'd application.

I've swapped in a E46 M3 box, so I have some insights. If you aren't running a 3.38 or shorter diff, don't bother.

1.) what power level are you dealing with? Do you need the slightly beefier M box?

2) the M box is noisy, and clunkyer...

any way you do it, you need a new clutch, pressure plate, t.o. bearing, tranny support, a slave, shifter carrier and shifter, and selector rod, driveshaft, and while your at it, center support bearing, guibo, cv rebuild.... plus plus plus...

the gs6 will work just as well, be smoother, quieter, and cost less. All other part are still required, just a little different than for the M box.

Thanks for the input. Yes, I was going to run a 3.38LSD. I have 3 E36Ms and an e30M with a s50 drivetrain and was more looking for the novelty of a 6th gear driving around. As far as power is concerned, I think the stock getrag and ZF 5-speeds can handle most reasonable power applications (assuming they see "normal
shifting and not driver abuse), so power isnt the reason I would be doing the swap - I really want to prevent swapping the non-m e46 6-sp into the car and having a weaker transmission than the stock zf 5-sp unit. The associated parts are part of the ballgame, I get that - cost of doing business. Just wanted to see if the non-m (not the tranny you have swapped) is a fruitless conversion yielding a weaker tranny or if it makes sense to save the cash over the m3 6-sp unit. thanks for the input!

[pbonsalb]

If you want to import a 20 year old trans, the E36M3 Euro version of the 420G has the advantage of the same input splines as your 5 speed so you can use your existing clutch and not have to respline it or buy another. Same vintage as you have now so age does not necessarily matter. Many E46M3 racers convert to the ZF320 5 dpeed, but a 6 speed is nice on the highway if you have shorter than stock gears.

[m3j0n]

If you want to import a 20 year old trans, the E36M3 Euro version of the 420G has the advantage of the same input splines as your 5 speed so you can use your existing clutch and not have to respline it or buy another. Same vintage as you have now so age does not necessarily matter. Many E46M3 racers convert to the ZF320 5 dpeed, but a 6 speed is nice on the highway if you have shorter than stock gears.

yeah, but I figured the e46 non-m unit was cheaper and more-importantly, more readily available. What trans are you running on your turbo e36?

[RRSperry]

If you are at stockish power, I wouldn't worry about the GS6. If I were to do it again, I'd have used the quieter, smoother GS6. and I'm at 325RWHp.

It is kinda neat seeing the 6 speed ZHP knob in there... (not a interesting as the 7 speed knob in my C7...lol)

And I kinda regret getting a ltw flywheel, the trans makes all kind of noise when it's hot, in neutral, at idle. Especially with the AC on...

[zM3]

I've swapped in a E46 M3 box, so I have some insights. If you aren't running a 3.38 or shorter diff, don't bother.
.

Curious about that comment. From what I can find, the ratios for gears 1-5 in the E46 M3 and E36 M3 manuals are within a few percent of each other. Swapping in the E46 M3 would then provide a taller top gear...so there would be no performance benefit, strictly a highway noise/mpg benefit. Was your comment regarding the lack of performance benefit since the 6-speed box is essentially the 5-speed box with an added taller top gear?

[Bimmerman535i]

Curious about that comment. From what I can find, the ratios for gears 1-5 in the E46 M3 and E36 M3 manuals are within a few percent of each other. Swapping in the E46 M3 would then provide a taller top gear...so there would be no performance benefit, strictly a highway noise/mpg benefit. Was your comment regarding the lack of performance benefit since the 6-speed box is essentially the 5-speed box with an added taller top gear?

Pretty much that. With a stock diff ratio the 6th gear gets you lower highway RPMs and a bit less noise, but that's about it. On a stock car you're also not in the torque band anymore.

The more popular reason to do the 6spd is to lower the diff ratio so that you get the acceleration benefit without sacrificing highway cruising comfort.

Case in point-- with 255 tires, the 3.23 gives 69mph in 5th gear at 3000rpm (2500rpm in 6th). A 3.91 diff, all else equal, is 3700rpm at 70mph in 5th, but 3000rpm at 70 in 6th. You can essentially run a much shorter diff for acceleration in gears 1-5 without giving up highway cruising (relative to stock gearing). Since most folks won't run something crazy like a 3.91 you'll get both an acceleration and cruising rpm benefit from the 6spd swap.

[TheJordanWhitte]

I emailed Zionsville last night and got a response this morning, here's what he said.

The two transmissions are nearly identical. I believe the 6 speed is rated at 370 NM vs. 320NM for the 5 speed.

Regards,
Dwight

[Braymond141]

And I kinda regret getting a ltw flywheel, the trans makes all kind of noise when it's hot, in neutral, at idle. Especially with the AC on...

Exactly why I pulled mine out and will be going stock DM flywheel. The 6-speed is very pleasant done right. My brother and I both have E46 M3 420G conversions in our E36s.

m3j0n; your response was predictably epic. I think it's clear why Jon didn't spell it out for you based on that.

[jvit27]

You just absolutely cannot help yourself from being a pompous shitbag, can you. Goddamn man, just let it go.. jesus Christ. Thanks for the typical JVit assistance as usual - you are a pillar of the community. Absolutely nothing constructive or helpful in your post. Next time, instead of contributing garbage, just don't post anything... Its far more helpful. Im assuming you found tons of information about the hp/tq limitations of the transmission before you did the swap, right? Any impressions of post-install with a TT kit on there? NOPE.. just cannot be helpful. Just have to tell me I don't know how to use Google.. Got it. Man, you got a pretty big chip on your shoulder that you've been carrying for quite some time.. Might be time to lose it. The choice is yours... Just sayin'.....

LOL. The time you took to write that nonsense would have yielded you a ton of information - because like it or not, I actually gave you the transmission code to start with. All you had to do was type it in..

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...0-6-speed-swap

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...lutch-question


You've been around E36's even longer than I have, it's just surprising that you own so many of these cars and a business based around them yet still ask such rookie questions, let alone not know how to find the answers so someone should rib you for it. But I digress, i'll extend an olive branch and hold your hand while I walk you through this because I do have a responsibility now as one of the forum experts

-The ZF 6spd is rated for more power than the ZF 5spd, so your fears of it being weaker are unwarranted. Both the M3 and 328 shared the ZF320 gearbox, which has been proven to hold massive amounts of torque with FI. The GS6-37BZ was used in the E46 330, E60 5 series, and Z4M so it can handle the power. The 5spd has a reputation for being robust because track guys use them, they're inexpensive and weigh 15-17lb less than a 6spd box but they do not last (especially with S54's) because the syncros can't handle the duration of RPMs like the Getrag 420G could (not to be mistaken for the weak Getrag S5D-250G used on M44 and M50 applications)

-The ZF 6spd fits, but it's not a direct swap. You will need to replace literally everything that it touches to work in an E36. This includes:

• E46 330 flywheel (pilot bearing is in the flywheel, not the crankcase like M3's. GS6 input shaft is shorter)
• E46 330 clutch/pressure plate (22 spine vs 10)
• modified driveshaft (roughly 3.75" shorter iirc)
• modified shift lever (E46 330 lever, and it must be bent to center. The 881 Performance lever will NOT clear)
• modified shift carrier (must be cut and welded to be 1" shorter and slightly offset)
• modified shift selector rod (Zionsville cuts and welds them in custom jig)
• modified transmission brace (Zionsville adapter is necessary with Euro M3 brace unless you can fabricate your own)

-Gear ratios are all but indistinguishable from the 320 or 420G. 1st gear is a hair shorter, but every other gear is within .01

ZF makes a nicer transmission plain and simple; it is quieter and shifts smoother. I much preferred how my 5spd felt compared to my old Getrags, but the lack of overdrive on the highway even with stock 3.23 gearing was intolerable so I chose the GS6-37BZ. Now the car is nice to take on trips. It handles 350whp flawlessly and i'd have zero reservations putting even more power through it. It still cruises in the powerband while in overdrive and I have averaged 29mpg.

This should help.

xoxo,
pompous shitbag

[m3j0n]

LOL. The time you took to write that nonsense would have yielded you a ton of information - because like it or not, I actually gave you the transmission code to start with. All you had to do was type it in..

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...0-6-speed-swap

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...lutch-question


You've been around E36's even longer than I have, it's just surprising that you own so many of these cars and a business based around them yet still ask such rookie questions, let alone not know how to find the answers so someone should rib you for it. But I digress, i'll extend an olive branch and hold your hand while I walk you through this because I do have a responsibility now as one of the forum experts

-The ZF 6spd is rated for more power than the ZF 5spd, so your fears of it being weaker are unwarranted. Both the M3 and 328 shared the ZF320 gearbox, which has been proven to hold massive amounts of torque with FI. The GS6-37BZ was used in the E36 330, E60 5 series, and Z4M so it can handle the power. The 5spd has a reputation for being robust because track guys use them, they're inexpensive and weigh 15-17lb less than a 6spd box but they do not last (especially with S54's) because the syncros can't handle the duration of RPMs like the Getrag 420G could (not to be mistaken for the weak Getrag S5D-250G used on M44 and M50 applications)

-The ZF 6spd fits, but it's not a direct swap. You will need to replace literally everything that it touches to work in an E36. This includes:

• E46 330 flywheel (pilot bearing is in the flywheel, not the crankcase like M3's. GS6 input shaft is shorter)
• E46 330 clutch/pressure plate (22 spine vs 10)
• modified driveshaft (roughly 3.75" shorter iirc)
• modified shift lever (E46 330 lever, and it must be bent to center. The 881 Performance lever will NOT clear)
• modified shift carrier (must be cut and welded to be 1" shorter and slightly offset)
• modified shift selector rod (Zionsville cuts and welds them in custom jig)
• modified transmission brace (Zionsville adapter is necessary with Euro M3 brace unless you can fabricate your own)

-Gear ratios are all but indistinguishable from the 320 or 420G. 1st gear is a hair shorter, but every other gear is within .01

ZF makes a nicer transmission plain and simple; it is quieter and shifts smoother. I much preferred how my 5spd felt compared to my old Getrags, but the lack of overdrive on the highway even with stock 3.23 gearing was intolerable so I chose the GS6-37BZ. Now the car is nice to take on trips. It handles 350whp flawlessly and i'd have zero reservations putting even more power through it. It still cruises in the powerband while in overdrive and I have averaged 29mpg.

This should help.

xoxo,
pompous shitbag

awesome response. Thank you very much for that - very helpful.

[BimmerBreaker]

I have a 6 speed from a z4 3.0 (same as later e46 330 and similar) swapped into my z3. I love it and vastly prefer it to the e46 m3 gearbox, I think the shifting feel and clutch feel is way better in the z4 gearbox vs the e46 m3. Mine is labelled as a getrag though, as I think both zf and getrag produced those gearboxes.

They are also way cheaper - half, or less - and seem to be easier to swap overall. I will be using these gearboxes for all future 6 speed swaps... Its a huge improvement over the stock 320z with no drawbacks that ive noticed.

[NeilM]

A 3.91 diff, all else equal, is 3700rpm at 70mph in 5th, but 3000rpm at 70 in 6th. You can essentially run a much shorter diff for acceleration in gears 1-5 without giving up highway cruising (relative to stock gearing). Since most folks won't run something crazy like a 3.91 you'll get both an acceleration and cruising rpm benefit from the 6spd swap.

Worth pointing out that a 3.91 diff results in 1st gear being all but pointless except for chasing flies up a wall, rendering the expensive 6-speed conversion more like a 5-speed.

Neil
96 M3 w/Euro 6-speed conversion, 3.73 rear end and semi-pointless 1st gear

[TheJordanWhitte]

I've been thinking about going with a 3.15lsd and stock 5 speed.

[kevinwilly]

[*]E46 330 flywheel (pilot bearing is in the flywheel, not the crankcase like M3's. GS6 input shaft is shorter)[*]E46 330 clutch/pressure plate (22 spine vs 10)[*]modified driveshaft (roughly 3.75" shorter iirc)[*]modified shift lever (E46 330 lever, and it must be bent to center. The 881 Performance lever will NOT clear)[*]modified shift carrier (must be cut and welded to be 1" shorter and slightly offset)[*]modified shift selector rod (Zionsville cuts and welds them in custom jig)[*]modified transmission brace (Zionsville adapter is necessary with Euro M3 brace unless you can fabricate your own)[/LIST]

This right here is the stuff I was going to point out. The S6S-420G getrag swap is nice because whether you go with the euro setup or the e46 m3 setup, you can use off the shelf parts from the Euro M3 to get it to work. So the associated parts are all REALLY reasonably priced. And there's a couple companies that make short shifters for the euro setup.

If you go with the 6 speed ZF, you either have to make custom parts or buy then from zionsville. So even though the transmission is MUCH cheaper, your total swap cost is going to be the same price or even more expensive.

That being said, yes it can handle the torque, YES, ZF transmissions are definitely better, smoother, and quieter than the getrags, and you won't get the rattle in neutral with a LTW flywheel that you'll get with the getrag, but you know... custom parts or zionsville prices (2200 bucks without the tranny? My WHOLE swap with tranny, driveshaft, ltw flywheel, shifter, etc was under a grand for a euro 6 speed setup).

[jvit27]

Worth pointing out that a 3.91 diff results in 1st gear being all but pointless except for chasing flies up a wall, rendering the expensive 6-speed conversion more like a 5-speed.

Neil
96 M3 w/Euro 6-speed conversion, 3.73 rear end and semi-pointless 1st gear

+1. Good point. In my experience, a 3.46 is the shortest ratio i'd run with an NA S52 - and that would only be with a 6spd (unless dedicated track car) because I found the 3.23+5spd to be unnecessarily annoying on the highway. 3.64/3.73 or higher completely negate the benefit of an overdrive, which truly defeats the purpose of the swap.

This right here is the stuff I was going to point out. The S6S-420G getrag swap is nice because whether you go with the euro setup or the e46 m3 setup, you can use off the shelf parts from the Euro M3 to get it to work. So the associated parts are all REALLY reasonably priced. And there's a couple companies that make short shifters for the euro setup.

If you go with the 6 speed ZF, you either have to make custom parts or buy then from zionsville. So even though the transmission is MUCH cheaper, your total swap cost is going to be the same price or even more expensive.

That being said, yes it can handle the torque, YES, ZF transmissions are definitely better, smoother, and quieter than the getrags, and you won't get the rattle in neutral with a LTW flywheel that you'll get with the getrag, but you know... custom parts or zionsville prices (2200 bucks without the tranny? My WHOLE swap with tranny, driveshaft, ltw flywheel, shifter, etc was under a grand for a euro 6 speed setup).

Yup. The Getrag is truly PnP, with the exception of the E46 variant needing a different flywheel - but as a whole the entire package is easier. Retrofitting the ZF is more a labor of love. I never loved the Getrag in my previous cars, which is a major reason I prefer SMG in my E46. I may try the Dinan branded lever for a shortshift solution because it raises the pivot point; the stock 330 lever and modified selector rod barely clearance the giubo as it is, so the 881 BMW Performance lever which extends lower was an absolute no-go. I've heard the Euro M3 versions of a UUC or Rogue might work, but I won't use those brands. The dual ear shift carrier severely limits SSK options compared to the 420G (single ear).

FWIW the Zionsville kit is pricey because it includes EVERYTHING new/OEM, including replacement parts. For instance the flywheel is a very large piece of that $2200 pie.

[kevinwilly]

+1. Good point. In my experience, a 3.46 is the shortest ratio i'd run with an NA S52 - and that would only be with a 6spd (unless dedicated track car) because I found the 3.23+5spd to be unnecessarily annoying on the highway. 3.64/3.73 or higher completely negate the benefit of an overdrive, which truly defeats the purpose of the swap.



Yup. The Getrag is truly PnP, with the exception of the E46 variant needing a different flywheel - but as a whole the entire package is easier. Retrofitting the ZF is more a labor of love. I never loved the Getrag in my previous cars, which is a major reason I prefer SMG in my E46. I may try the Dinan branded lever for a shortshift solution because it raises the pivot point; the stock 330 lever and modified selector rod barely clearance the giubo as it is, so the 881 BMW Performance lever which extends lower was an absolute no-go. I've heard the Euro M3 versions of a UUC or Rogue might work, but I won't use those brands. The dual ear shift carrier severely limits SSK options compared to the 420G (single ear).

FWIW the Zionsville kit is pricey because it includes EVERYTHING new/OEM, including replacement parts. For instance the flywheel is a very large piece of that $2200 pie.

I'm running a 3.64 with my 6 speed. But I'm also putting an S54 in. It's basically what an e46 m3 is, which is MUCH more fun than what my S50b32 with 3.23 was. The extra little bit from the rear end makes all the difference in the world. And 3.64/6 speed is still lower on the highway than 3.23/ 5 speed. Not much, but enough. I wouldn't say it NEGATES the swap, though. Sure, first gear is more useless, but second and third are just PERFECT for around town.

The euro m3 versions of the UUC and rogue do work. I have the UUC for mine. I agree that UUC stuff is absolute trash, but it came with the transmission and I've lightly modified it so that I'm not going to have problems with it. At least HOPEFULLY. I have no idea why the heck they designed it the way they did and then brag about it being the best. It's just stupid.

And yeah- the only stuff you REALLY need from the zionsville kit you can buy separately and can be into it for around $1000 or so, which is a lot more reasonable.

[jvit27]

I'm running a 3.64 with my 6 speed. But I'm also putting an S54 in. It's basically what an e46 m3 is, which is MUCH more fun than what my S50b32 with 3.23 was. The extra little bit from the rear end makes all the difference in the world. And 3.64/6 speed is still lower on the highway than 3.23/ 5 speed. Not much, but enough. I wouldn't say it NEGATES the swap, though. Sure, first gear is more useless, but second and third are just PERFECT for around town.

The euro m3 versions of the UUC and rogue do work. I have the UUC for mine. I agree that UUC stuff is absolute trash, but it came with the transmission and I've lightly modified it so that I'm not going to have problems with it. At least HOPEFULLY. I have no idea why the heck they designed it the way they did and then brag about it being the best. It's just stupid.

And yeah- the only stuff you REALLY need from the zionsville kit you can buy separately and can be into it for around $1000 or so, which is a lot more reasonable.

3.64+6spd is the perfect compromise for a street car with a Euro/S54. I originally ran a 3.46 with my S50b32 swap and it was still too tall, so I went to a 3.64. A 3.73 is also a great choice, only about 50rpm higher on average but can often times be a less expensive gearset so worth considering.

Keep in mind that a 3.64 will still be slightly taller on an E36 than the E46 M3 setup because those cars usually run 19" wheels vs. our 17's.

The ITB motors just have so many more RPM's to play with than M5x based engines. Even raising the limiter, an S52 isn't pulling very hard past 6500 so it's better to keep the gearing a little taller and stay in the meat of the 3000-6000 power band. Euro/s54 are 3000-8000 so the shorter gearing makes far more sense. With the stock-ish gearing it's just harder to access the best part when 2nd gear reaches something like 74mph! Makes you wonder just how handicapped the 01-02 MZ3 were with 3.15's....

Again, track cars being an exception, 3.64 is the point of diminishing returns for a US spec car. Compared to stock 3.23, there are almost no scenarios where it is faster (i've verified it myself in real life).

Also I bought the exclusive parts from Zionsville and sourced the rest myself and did my swap for about $1k, so I concur with you on that number

[Bimmerman535i]

I'm debating 3.73/3.91 with the 6spd but only because I've got an S54 and it is more track car than street car. It's hugely boring with the 5spd and 3.15 right now (and 8300rpm), so....S54 M coupe gearing really really sucks. You shift once and then lose your license....

I definitely wouldn't recommend that combo on an S52 for the exact reason jvit says. On a euro/s54 that's aimed at track/autox, sure. For an S52 car, 3.23 or 3.38 with a 6spd would be pretty awesome IMO.

[pbonsalb]

If you make power to 8300, go 3.91. The S65 makes power to 8300 and comes factory with 3.85 for the 6MT and I would consider a 4.10 and 8600 rpm limiter.

[kevinwilly]

If you make power to 8300, go 3.91. The S65 makes power to 8300 and comes factory with 3.85 for the 6MT and I would consider a 4.10 and 8600 rpm limiter.

Yeah, but gears 1-4 are quite a bit lower ratio than the e46 m3 6 speed, so that makes up for the increase in the ratio of the rear end. 3.91 is too much for street use, in my opinion.