M62tu Guides + Vanos job done - still makes knocking/diesel sound = need your input

[whiteghost1]

Hello,

This M62tu started to develop a knocking/dieseling sound at idle when warm - listen to attached video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W68L...ature=youtu.be

My 2001 740 I Sport engine noise www.youtube.com

This sound resembles worn M62tu vanos units; As such I rebuilt the vanos units and replaced the timing guides along with the "while you're in there parts" (chain tensioner, check valves, oil seperator, vanos housings, water pump, etc.....). After opening it up the guides and vanos clearly had to be replaced - guides were falling apart and vanos were some of the loosest I've worked on.

To my surprise the noise still exists after the repair so I am looking for a diagnosis of the problem.
I've noted the following:

- no start up rattle anymore
- good power all around
- smooth idle
- no engine codes
- sound does not happen when engine is cold
- after ~1min sound appears
- sound only appears at idle or at engine deceleration below 2000rpm
- the moment you apply throttle the noise disappears

Any thoughts to what could the potential causes of the sound be?
Where to go from here?

Thanks for any input!

[sooch]

Did you have the sprockets rebuilt by Dr VANOS? Or did you do the Beisian VANOS repair? I did the Beisian seals and the knocking noise never fully went away, car pulled great and never gave trouble after that.

[XAlt]

It's probably improperly sealed.

nothing to see here, move along.

[jicaino]

Yup, vanos seals.

[whiteghost1]

Yup, vanos seals.

I triple checked the seals: twice before reinstalling the vanos units after the Beisan reseal. Fired it up and still made the exact same sound.
Even removed the vanos units one more time to triple check after starting it, as it was still making the noise. The seals are still 100% intact.

The pitch, frequency, and intensity of the knocking/diesel sound is the exact same as before - I would think it would have varied a little if it was the vanos seals and they were replaced.
I've even forwarded the video to Raj @ Beisan and he confirms that it is not vanos related, and does not have any idea what it is.

At this point I am convinced it is not the vanos and something else, so I'm looking for ideas.

[jicaino]

well as for exploring other fronts...

Have you hooked up an external mechanical oil pressure gauge?
Have you ever cleaned the oiling system (using seafoam or any good engine oil flush like Liquimoly's) ?
What oil viscosity and brand are you using?
Did you check for oil pump chain slack/bolts properly torqued? Another oil pump related issue is that the "low" circuit piston gets cruddy/rusty and you have less than ideal oil pressure below 1000 rpm.
Are you using OE oil filters or Mann? or other brand/makes?

[dannyzabolotny]

Oil weight can have a big effect on the noises your engine makes. Though for what it's worth I've never heard a fully quiet M62tu, they all have at least some ticking.

[jicaino]

Oil weight can have a big effect on the noises your engine makes. Though for what it's worth I've never heard a fully quiet M62tu, they all have at least some ticking.

Mine is especially quiet, even with the lower weight Motul 5W40 I'm using now. When it was on 10W60 it sounded like a happy kitty. I recall having higher valvetrain and general noises when my oil pump was on the way out. The slack of the chain was also beyond acceptable tolerances.

[ltpickles]

I had this exact same problem when I rebuilt my VANOS sprockets and it turned out to be a misplaced washer causing the whole issue. It might be worth checking.

First check to see if your cam sensor is crashing into the timing wheel on the VANOS sprockets.
It should look something like this:
IMG_20160404_140723.jpg

If your sprocket looks like mine, then you most probably assembling it incorrectly with an extra washer.
IMG_20160405_141620.jpg IMG_20160405_141627.jpg
Notice the red arrow pointing to the washer.

Here is a height comparison between a sprocket with and without the washer.
IMG_20160405_141658.jpg
The one the left has an extra washer while the right has none.

Your problem might not be caused by this exact issue but it won't hurt to check

[RRandy]

I triple checked the seals: twice before reinstalling the vanos units after the Beisan reseal. Fired it up and still made the exact same sound.
Even removed the vanos units one more time to triple check after starting it, as it was still making the noise. The seals are still 100% intact.

The pitch, frequency, and intensity of the knocking/diesel sound is the exact same as before - I would think it would have varied a little if it was the vanos seals and they were replaced.
I've even forwarded the video to Raj @ Beisan and he confirms that it is not vanos related, and does not have any idea what it is.

At this point I am convinced it is not the vanos and something else, so I'm looking for ideas.

I have a Range Rover with the M62TUB44 lump and I replaced my timing chain and guides and rebuilt the vanos units using the beisan kit and press tool and I think I followed the instructions to the letter.
After a few hundred miles I now have a much worse startup rattle then ever before and also a loud tapping once the engine is warm.
The tapping does sometimes go away after a good thrashing which makes me think it could be a follower but i am getting ready to check the oil pressure and drop the sump to check for debris like excessive sealer in the oil pickup. I will also do a forte flush.
Did you get any further with your noise ?

[Atomistic]

Maybe you can use a mechanic's stethoscope to localize where the noise is originating from. Did the valve covers seat all the way down? The cam sensor plate might be coming into contact with the sensor as mentioned above.

[RRandy]

Maybe you can use a mechanic's stethoscope to localize where the noise is originating from. Did the valve covers seat all the way down? The cam sensor plate might be coming into contact with the sensor as mentioned above.

Hi, thanks for the reply, I have used an electronic chassis ear which is basically a microphone and a pair of headphones and it is coming from the cam cover but doesn't seem to right at the front by the vanos but slightly back from them and on both sides., i will try and post a video.
When i replaced the front top timing covers I found it difficult to get them to seat all the way down but i would say they are 99% down, i even cracked a spare cam cover that I was suing to push the front timing covers down before tightening them up.
Regarding the CPS, i guess if I remove them i would see evidence of the plate hitting the sensor ?

I checked the oil pressure yesterday which appears ok, you can hear the knocking noise in the background so I'll link a video later when i can upload it if that's ok to add to this thread ?

Videos added, upside down for some reason, Idle PSI should be 7 psi minimum and max at 3500 rpm is 68 psi so I think my pressure is good, at the filter body anyway.

oil pressure stats.jpg

I've edited this to remove the photobucket links as they weren't playing so the link below is of the oil pressure test on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSO1npwlM5I

[gmak]

How about a stuck follower / tappet? It would make noise like that if it wasn't compressing properly under the camshaft lobe load. Another possibility is a loose spark plug. A third is an improperly seated fuel injector - or one with a noisy solenoid. I would suggest what Atomistic did - use a mechanic's stethoscope and try to narrow the sound down. Put it on each fuel injector in turn. Put it on the manifold air passages, put it on the engine block. You should be able to figure out where the sound is and then isolate it down to the cause.

The good part is that it sounds like a top end sound and therefore not bearing knock.

[RRandy]

How about a stuck follower / tappet? It would make noise like that if it wasn't compressing properly under the camshaft lobe load. Another possibility is a loose spark plug. A third is an improperly seated fuel injector - or one with a noisy solenoid. I would suggest what Atomistic did - use a mechanic's stethoscope and try to narrow the sound down. Put it on each fuel injector in turn. Put it on the manifold air passages, put it on the engine block. You should be able to figure out where the sound is and then isolate it down to the cause.

The good part is that it sounds like a top end sound and therefore not bearing knock.

Thanks for the advice, That has crossed my mind, i removed the right hand cam cover and felt all the followers and checked them with a feeler gauge and although they turned very easily when not compressed there wasn't any gap. When i tested with the mechanics stethoscope it was certainly very loud around the cam covers but not loudest at the front by the vanos.

I posted links to a couple of videos with the sound and oil pressure check and also the oil pressure spec but that post has been removed for some reason so i am guessing i may be guilty of hijacking the thread.

i am going to do a flush and refill with some cheap synthetic 5w30 and run that for a bit and then refill with maybe 10w40 or 5w50
Thanks

[JimLev]

Go take it for a 5 min 4K+ RPM drive after its warmed up.
If the lifters have bleed down this will pump them up.

[whiteghost1]

Did you get any further with your noise ?

Did practically all of the (excellent) above suggestions, no avail......I haven't spoken to the new owner in several months, but last I heard the car is running excellent with the noise still prevalent as ever.
With stethascoped the entire motor and the noise appeared to be the loudest around the back of the motor, with the loudest being closest to the bellhousing. The torque converter was highly suspect. When the acoustic cover was removed the knocking definitely seemed louder.

The most up to date info I have is that the tranny was starting to slip because of the notorious "A" drum failure. Not sure if he rebuilt the trans along with the converter to see if it was the cause of the noise. I'll reach out to him to see if there was any resolve.

[RRandy]

Did practically all of the (excellent) above suggestions, no avail......I haven't spoken to the new owner in several months, but last I heard the car is running excellent with the noise still prevalent as ever.
With stethascoped the entire motor and the noise appeared to be the loudest around the back of the motor, with the loudest being closest to the bellhousing. The torque converter was highly suspect. When the acoustic cover was removed the knocking definitely seemed louder.

The most up to date info I have is that the tranny was starting to slip because of the notorious "A" drum failure. Not sure if he rebuilt the trans along with the converter to see if it was the cause of the noise. I'll reach out to him to see if there was any resolve.

Thanks for the update, i would be really interested in any information you can get.
i did get the feeling the noise was coming from the rear of the engine but when I put the chassis ear over the rear of the engine it seemed to get quieter again and I did try from underneath as well.
I rebuilt my ZF5HP24 transmission with lots of new parts and also had the torque converter refurbished so i am hoping that is still holding on.

JimLev

Go take it for a 5 min 4K+ RPM drive after its warmed up.
If the lifters have bleed down this will pump them up.

i have done that few times and it does seem quieter for a bit but when i use it again the noise comes back, but it does sit unused for a week between being driven.
I am hoping a flush will help.
It still drives perfectly, well it did up until last week when the front caliper started to stick on and put the transmission into overheat strategy, which i hope is only temporary.....

I am going to flush tomorrow and drop the sump to make sure there is nothing in the pickup screen which I am not expecting as the oil pressure is ok.

Thank you to all for your help and advice.
I see my post with the videos is back as well, must have been being checked out

[jicaino]

Sounds like oiling system taking a dump. I'd seafoam it (or flush it or any other treatment

Enviado desde mi SM-N920G mediante Tapatalk

[philly98540]

Sticky lifter. Try the flush.

[RRandy]

jicaino

Sounds like oiling system taking a dump. I'd seafoam it (or flush it or any other treatment

Enviado desde mi SM-N920G mediante Tapatalk

Sticky lifter. Try the flush.

Thanks you, I am going to try that this morning and will get back with the result.
I will also fill with 5w30 to see if the thinner oil gets around the system easier to give a further clean.

[RRandy]

Well as an update as promised, i ran two bottles (800 ml as 10% of oil capacity) of Forte advanced motor flush through it for an hour on idle and the engine got quieter until there was no knocking or tapping evident so i thought i was on to something. i'll post a short video of the engine after running for an hour with the flush.

I drained the oil and I removed the oil filter which was clean and also dropped the lower sump and removed a few bits of paper filter and a little old sealer from the the pickup screen but nothing dramatic.
Now something i did notice in the bottom of the sump which is a little worrying was some of what i can describe as solidified metallic silt so a very fine deposit in one end of the lower sump which could only have got there since i did the vanos and guides. i didn't get chance to analyse if it was steel or aluminium but it is still in the drain container so i'll take a look.

This could be concerning or it could have been washed out of the relatively heavy deposits that were left behind in the used cam covers i purchased. it could also be that I didn't seat the cam timing chain guides correctly, not the main timing chain guide, and one of the guides has moved as I couldn't get them to click in place on the cam chain tensioners.

I refilled with 5w30 synthetic oil and removed the fuel pump solenoid so i could crank it over a few times to get the oil pressure up and the the filter housing charged, and then started it up with a tiny amount of rattle and the engine sounded basically ok but not as quiet as when I did the flush.

i took if for a drive and it drove perfectly and now the caliper is not sticking i didn't get any wheel wobble or transmission overheat strategy of holding onto the gears.

I started it this morning and got a very small amount of start up rattle but the engine didn't sound any better than before really and still sounded lumpy with a bit of background rattle.

I will use it as it is for a while and see how it settles down and then i think I will remove the left hand cam cover and make sure everything is ok under there and then i may check the coil packs as these are original so they are 13 years old / 122K miles and i have heard they can cause a bit of noise.

I have taken some live data readings using my black Box Solutions Faultmate and if it is ok i would like to post them up if i work out how to so hopefully somebody can tell me if anything looks suspicious, like cylinder roughness for example.

Anyway, many thanks for the suggestions and support so far and hopefully it is ok to have hijacked this thread

[Vincenze]

I have resigned myself to some ticking now at 125K M62TUB44. A significant rattle is now audible at cold start. I have ordered a chain tensioner (Febi Bilstein).

The engine runs very smoothly. Cooling system is tight (have had to change a few hoses). Oil sweats in a few places but requires no topping up that I can work out.

I cleaned 16 years of grime of the block and under the heads than gave it a winter ACF50 seal.

It's a lovely car to drive and for the generation that likes a nice soundtrack it delivers a refined rumble. And frankly for the £3K I paid is good value.

[RRandy]

I'd be interested how you get on, my tensioner was replaced not long before my rebuild but I have considered taking that out and checking to see if it has a partial blockage.
There are so many hydraulic oilways in this engine that i guess any tiny piece of dirt could significantly effect the noise or performance.

Mine is still going ok, I still get a rattle on startup for a few seconds when it has been standing for a while and I still get the tapping for a few minutes until it gets warm. It is a weird rattle, I will have to post it to youtube as my photobucket videos don't seem to play, either that or the dozens of ads that are trying to play stops my video from loading.
The tapping is constant at the start and then gets a little quieter, then is intermittent for a few seconds and then stops completely.

I am still on the same oil and the engine seems really quiet after a run and especially if i give it a run at much higher revs which still sounds like lifters as you guys have already pointed out.
It definitely feels better after a good thrashing.

[scottieducati]

I’m living this issue as well, couple rebuilds of the Vanos, engine flush, thing runs amazing but sounds like death on startup. 🤷*♂️

[JimLev]

I’m living this issue as well, couple rebuilds of the Vanos, engine flush, thing runs amazing but sounds like death on startup. 路*♂️

It could be the vanos o-rings or the check valves behind the vanos solenoids.