OT: so I got a new project car

[Mr Bingley]

Other than fix it, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this, but it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. 18,500 miles '98. It'll be weird working on an American car--I haven't done that for decades. Slight hit in the front took out the bumper and that's about it--totally by an insurance company--I bought the salvage off the owner. I think maybe I'll give it to my wife.

[Blacklane]

I love the look, but I'm sorry I don't know this: What is it?

As a side note, I had to do a double-take on the license plate. My Z3 has Ohio plates that start with "FFP", which I've always told my wife stood for "Fix for Patty", since the car was her idea, but refurbishing it was mine.

[Venom13132]

Love it!! Vipers are still one of my all time favorite cars.

[BMWBergy]

I love the look, but I'm sorry I don't know this: What is it?

First generation Dodge Viper.

[Mr Bingley]

1998 Dodge Viper RT/10 1st gen phase II. 10 cylinder 450 hp 3,284 lbs curb according to Wikipedia: Top speed 185, 0-60 mph in 4.0 sec.; 0-100 mph: in 8.6 sec.; 1/4 mile: 12.2 sec @ 119 mph. Sadly, this one was converted to an automatic transmission early in its life (they came originally with a 6 speed manual)--which is why I'm thinking of giving it to my wife. Otherwise I'll convert it back. In interestingly, it's almost exactly the same dimensions as my ///M, which means it will fit nicely in my garage next to it. I'm already thinking about supercharging--there's plenty of room under the hood--cause 450 ain't enough.

[melville]

1998 Dodge Viper RT/10 1st gen phase II. 10 cylinder 450 hp 3,284 lbs curb according to Wikipedia: Top speed 185, 0-60 mph in 4.0 sec.; 0-100 mph: in 8.6 sec.; 1/4 mile: 12.2 sec @ 119 mph. Sadly, this one was converted to an automatic transmission early in its life (they came originally with a 6 speed manual)--which is why I'm thinking of giving it to my wife. Otherwise I'll convert it back. In interestingly, it's almost exactly the same dimensions as my ///M, which means it will fit nicely in my garage next to it. I'm already thinking about supercharging--there's plenty of room under the hood--cause 450 ain't enough.

Who does that?

[rf900rkw]

I'm more curious on "how". What unit did they use? Any tunnel modifications to clear?

[Venom13132]

the 6-speed manual is just a built up t56. Same transmission used in Firebirds/Camaros of that generation. So I would assume the ATX from an LS F-body would fit the same along with some minor modifications and a custom driveshaft.

[E36ic4Me]

When it came out, I really liked the Viper. I thought of buying one and got so far as going to the dealership to drive one and potentially talk numbers. Man, did that thing ever suck. I walked away with the impression that it was basically a fast Dodge Neon. The interior is about as cheap and crappy as you'd expect from a Neon, it handles like a dry turd and loud as all get out (not good engine loud). Slap a bumper on that thing and dump it for a profit!! There's a big ol' reason why you can pick 'em up so cheap.

[rf900rkw]

the 6-speed manual is just a built up t56. Same transmission used in Firebirds/Camaros of that generation. So I would assume the ATX from an LS F-body would fit the same along with some minor modifications and a custom driveshaft.

By your logic a ZF5HP30 should slide right into a Z3 since the Z3 can handle a 420G and the 540i/740i/840i used both the 420G and the '30.

The driveshaft is easy. Bellhousing pattern, torque converter size and mounting. Pilot size. Tunnel clearance. That's where the trouble will be.

[328 Power 04]

Cool car, am I the only one who thinks that this car's van sourced V10 can get a whole lot more power out of the standard bolt-ons, without having to supercharge it?

[Randy Forbes]

1998 Dodge Viper RT/10 1st gen phase II. 10 cylinder 450 hp 3,284 lbs curb according to Wikipedia: Top speed 185, 0-60 mph in 4.0 sec.; 0-100 mph: in 8.6 sec.; 1/4 mile: 12.2 sec @ 119 mph. Sadly, this one was converted to an automatic transmission early in its life (they came originally with a 6 speed manual)--which is why I'm thinking of giving it to my wife. Otherwise I'll convert it back. In interestingly, it's almost exactly the same dimensions as my ///M, which means it will fit nicely in my garage next to it. I'm already thinking about supercharging--there's plenty of room under the hood--cause 450 ain't enough.

Ralph, you better get a new tape measure! I had to cut a corner off my workbench in Toledo so the Viper I was taking care of (several interesting albums in my gallery) would fit on the lift. Unless the car was in the air, I had to use the passageway doors to go from the main part of the garage to the back where my tools were__couldn't pass by on the sides (and would've made for some noteworthy videos of me getting in and out of it, when you could only open the door a foot or so).

I'm glad I had the exposure to the one I did__including taking the car's owner to his first autocross and co-driving it__as it cured me from ever wanting one!

Have fun, they're interesting cars to work on; not terribly difficult, but no walk in the park either

[BimmerBreaker]

Cool car, lucky wife. The Vipers are one of the few American cars I think actually got better - and better looking - with later generations. The first is still quite a good looking car though, although I have heard their driving characteristics leave a bit to be desired. Don't they have no ABS and no traction control?

[Mr Bingley]

Yeah, I don't know why anyone would convert to an automatic. That being said, it looks like it was done very professionally just in terms of the installation and integration. I don't have any details on the trans itself, but a cursory examination certainly looks like it was a bolt on with no tunnel modifications. I agree that fit and finish of the interior is not up to European standards (to say the least). I believe there is no electronic management whatsoever--ABS, traction control--you name it. It does have dual air bags. I have to admit I smiled at the sound it makes when I started it up. I'm certainly not looking at trading it for my ///M. But, I got it for a ridiculously low price, albeit with a salvage title, but at 18,500 miles, and it basically needing a bumper, I couldn't turn it down. My wife will drive it like her Volvo, which at that she drives very conservatively. She walks to work and pretty much everything else from our house--she typically puts a couple of thousand miles a year on her car--at most--but she'll enjoy pulling into her parking spot at the University in a Viper just for the effect once or twice. I hope it fits in the garage in any event--it is a little wider, but measured the same more or less--14' 6"--in length.

[328 Power 04]

Hehe

[Mr Bingley]

Well, I finished the project, including converting it back to a 6 speed, and it passed it's salvage inspection yesterday. It was really odd working on an American car again--I haven't done that since I drove a '66 Oldsmobile F85 and a '62 Buick station wagon when they were less than 20 years old. Shockingly, the technology really hasn't changed very much, except the fasteners appeared to be mostly (but not all) metric. Remarkably crude engineering, design, and assembly--I've worked exclusively on European cars for so long now, I really didn't realize just how far ahead they really are. Maybe the Viper is an outlier being as it's a Dodge, and a one off, but if it's any indication of just how far behind American auto technology was in 1998, I can't imagine how far behind it is now. Our Z3's are crude compared to BMW's of just a few years later, and bear almost no relationship to current production other than the roundel, yet they are light years ahead of what I encountered under the skin of that Viper. I blame it on our education system--a country's engineers can be no better than the schools that produce them, and we dropped that ball a long long time ago (we're really great at traveling baseball though). Germany (Sweden, China, Japan) on the other hand make education their highest social priority, and the results show in their engineering. Ok, I didn't mean to get all political, but I was really shocked at what I encountered under there.

I've only driven it a few miles as it wasn't legal until yesterday, so I don't know what to think about that yet--I'm taking it really easy getting to know the car, as I get the impression it could go completely out of control on a moment's notice. One thing I can say is that it's a lot closer in feel to driving a Cadillac than an MZ3--there is no steering feedback whatsoever, and I would describe the ride as "cushy" (0k, my ///M rides on Bilsteins so maybe that's not 100% fair). I'll open it up some today and see if that makes any difference. The tach redlines at 6K, but the power band appears to top out at 2750--is that even possible?

[LannVouivre]

Yes, I think they can get out of control easily. I seem to remember someone saying that. I'll admit that I think the first gen is pretty hideous, but your wife would get tons of looks in it.

[Venom13132]

very cool that you got it done! I had forgotten about this post. Post up some photos of the completed job when you get a chance. I have always been a fan of the viper its one of those excess for the sake of excess cars. I would be a little bummed out about the soft steering though.

[325bob]

Well, I finished the project, including converting it back to a 6 speed, and it passed it's salvage inspection yesterday. It was really odd working on an American car again--I haven't done that since I drove a '66 Oldsmobile F85 and a '62 Buick station wagon when they were less than 20 years old. Shockingly, the technology really hasn't changed very much, except the fasteners appeared to be mostly (but not all) metric. Remarkably crude engineering, design, and assembly--I've worked exclusively on European cars for so long now, I really didn't realize just how far ahead they really are. Maybe the Viper is an outlier being as it's a Dodge, and a one off, but if it's any indication of just how far behind American auto technology was in 1998, I can't imagine how far behind it is now. Our Z3's are crude compared to BMW's of just a few years later, and bear almost no relationship to current production other than the roundel, yet they are light years ahead of what I encountered under the skin of that Viper. I blame it on our education system--a country's engineers can be no better than the schools that produce them, and we dropped that ball a long long time ago (we're really great at traveling baseball though). Germany (Sweden, China, Japan) on the other hand make education their highest social priority, and the results show in their engineering. Ok, I didn't mean to get all political, but I was really shocked at what I encountered under there.

I've only driven it a few miles as it wasn't legal until yesterday, so I don't know what to think about that yet--I'm taking it really easy getting to know the car, as I get the impression it could go completely out of control on a moment's notice. One thing I can say is that it's a lot closer in feel to driving a Cadillac than an MZ3--there is no steering feedback whatsoever, and I would describe the ride as "cushy" (0k, my ///M rides on Bilsteins so maybe that's not 100% fair). I'll open it up some today and see if that makes any difference. The tach redlines at 6K, but the power band appears to top out at 2750--is that even possible?

I did a driving school in one at Lime Rock, scary torque, in both directions, closed throttle oversteer is like pulling the handbrake!

[Randy Forbes]

Good for you! Just be cautious about giving it a boot part way through a corner, as ALL THAT TORQUE comes in pretty early, something around 1400 RPM!!
(that's what gets a lot of them totaled: thinking that "I'm going slow enough, I'll just tickle it a bit...")

I was always under the impression that they handled terribly, based on what I'd seen owners do at autocrosses (spin-city) but once I got to autocross one myself, they're not that bad__I mean geez, look at all that rubber to the road!

If there was any one (1) thing I don't like about them, is they're Queen Mary HUGE! I HAD TO cut off a corner of my workbench in Ohio to get the one I worked on to go onto the lift__and then forget about walking around it, I had to use the passageway doors to go around it outside!

Construction-wise, they're bare-bones simple, and you can get at most everything through vast open spaces (dumb-shit like next to no access to the oil filter was very puzzling though...). Want to check/change the rod bearings? Then take off the oil pan__not a single other thing in the way!

Congratulations, and have some fun with it. I expect you plan to pass it on, so either sell it to someone in the south or west, or get it all gussied up during the winter and list it early springtime. Good luck (and be mindful of the torque factor )!

[cfmistry]

Pics?? Come on Ralph!

[BimmerBreaker]

it's almost exactly the same dimensions as my ///M, which means it will fit nicely in my garage next to it

If there was any one (1) thing I don't like about them, is they're Queen Mary HUGE! I HAD TO cut off a corner of my workbench in Ohio to get the one I worked on to go onto the lift__and then forget about walking around it, I had to use the passageway doors to go around it outside!

So is it big or not? :P

[Randy Forbes]

So is it big or not? :P

Well, the door sills are about a foot wide__each__and the console is wide enough to set a Sonic Drive-In tray on, so there's those comparisons to consider...

Maybe it isn't too much longer than an M Coupe/Rdstr, but it is considerably wider!

[bcoffin]

My DREAM car. One day....one day

Good luck with the rebuild!

[Mr Bingley]

Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand the car a little better. From 0-2500 rpm it's all torque, from 2500 to around 4K it's flat, but from 4K-5500 it's all horsepower--kind like a blower's power curve on our cars, only without variable valve timing. The torque is quite something--like Randy says, even at insanely low rpms it will pull like there's no tomorrow. I will say this about it, the transmission shifts perfectly snick snick snick from one gear to the next--like it knows if I'm upshifting or downshifting--with no play at all--very crisp, and a pleasant change. It passed emissions today, so now I'm 100% legal. I have to admit enjoying its notoriety--the thing about this car is that it draws crowds wherever it's parked. I parked it outside my office window and spent a good deal of yesterday watching people trip over themselves as they walked past it with their heads craning around like it was a naked model. It's kind of fun that way. I can't get out of it in public without people coming up and commenting on it--I am used to some bit of that kind of attention with my ///M, because it looks brand new in condition, but is so classic in its lines, but this is different--it's much more intense. I opened it up a little more today and will continue to do so in small increments until I have a good feel for it. I really don't know if I'm keeping it or selling it at this point. We'll see--I haven't actually sold a car in about a decade, so I'm guessing I'll be keeping it, on the one hand, on the other, I've got 8 or 9 cars at the moment, and I'm loosing about 12,000 square feet of shop. I can park five at my house, one in my secretary's barn, one I've loaned to a friend, and I'm in the market for a three bay garage I can install a couple of lifts in. I might have to rethink my hobby. Here's some pics of it done: