5HP24 Electrical Gremlins

[AK_5eries]

Car: 7/98 build date 540iA. I am after the 9/97 cut off, so I have the SKE 134 pin (9pin, 40pin, 52pin) AGS module. EGS version GS8.60 2

Issue: I am having an intermittent EDS 3 error which puts my transmission in 'trans failsafe prog' mode. Absolutely no correlation to weather temps or cold/hot starts. Transmission shifts perfectly when not in TFS. Physical inspection of EGS shows 0 corrosion or any dirt. Bone dry and brand new looking.

I have INPA and DIS/GT1 up and running.

INPA has no problem communicating with the transmission module BUT cannot activate the solenoids. I am able to activate fuel pump, ABS, fuel injectors, etc... so INPA is not at fault.

DIS/GT1 on the other hand was not able to read my transmission module. I ran a quick test and transmission module did not get highlighted. It did give me an EDS 3 error, but I was not able to run diagnostic test on it. I went in there manually to run a diagnostic test, but that did not respond either. Kept getting an error.

I ohm'ed out the pins in the 40 pin connector at the EGS for the EDS solenoids but got wacky, yet consistent numbers. Around 40kohm. I doubt that the length of the wire would add that much resistance. Per 5HP24 tech guide, the solenoids are around 5.4-6.8ohm. I have not had a chance to test ohms at the round transmission connector on the transmission yet.

Is this a failing EGS or temperature harness?

Any ideas appreciated.

[enda320]

Correct, the wires wouldn't add much resistance at all, it would be within the measuring tolerances for the solenoids.
I guess trace it back and see if there is any pin corrosion on any other plugs in the line and check from there.

[jicaino]

My transmission weirdness was due to slightly corroded terminals and bad ground

[AK_5eries]

Haven't had a chance to check the round plug at the transmission yet due to exams.

J, where was your corrosion? My EGS connections in the engine bay are brand new.

[E39MGirl]

Hi Green Tiger,

I take it from the description of your resistance test you used ground to pin 53 on connector X8600, and then checked resistance across pins 4, 5, 30, 32 and 33 on X8600? From your description you are also getting equally high resistance across all solenoids to ground at pin 53. If that is the case it seems odd that all solenoids have equally high resistance, unless the problem is with pin 53 and the ground wire as this would affect readings across all other five pins equally. It is possible that all pins are corroded at the transmission plug and that is giving erratic readings, but if the ground wire was dodgy it would not only affect all of the solenoids the same way and prevent a test with INPA, it might also account for the erratic communication you are getting with the control unit.

Andrea

[jicaino]

Haven't had a chance to check the round plug at the transmission yet due to exams.

J, where was your corrosion? My EGS connections in the engine bay are brand new.

Hey GT. It wasn't rust-rust, it was more like a hazing of the terminals in the connectors, like tin coated brass exposed to a damper/saltier than normal environment.

Anyways my tranny kept on acting up last night so I'll be running other tests. I hope it's not the actual transmission...

[AK_5eries]

J, my terminals at the DME box are extremely clean.

E39 girl, I have the A7000 EGS module type (aka the 134pin) with the X70001, X70003 and X70004 connectors. I believe the X8XXXX is the older 88 pin one found on the pre 9/97 5HP24. Does it matter what ground you use? I just used the oil filter housing as ground.

Still haven't checked, but I haven't had any issues in about 10 days.


Just to ask again, why exactly can't I activate my solenoids through INPA? Any common resolutions for this issue?

[E39MGirl]

Hi Green Tiger,

Double check the wiring diagram for your car, but the solenoids should have a common ground wired back to an AGS connector. You need to check resistance to that common ground wire, not to chassis ground (i.e. not the oil filter housing) otherwise you will get higher resistance readings than you should. It may be that the pin numbers I listed above are for the older model - I'll have to check - but to check yours you will need to find out which pin of the AGS connectors is the common solenoid ground and check resistance across each solenoid activation wire to that common ground wire. They will likely be in the same connector.

If this checks out okay and the solenoids are not activating you have a starting point to work out why there is no comms between INPA and the solenoids - the weak link is then very likely the AGS computer if all other activation checks work fine.

Andrea

[AK_5eries]

Andrea, thanks for clarifying the ground point. Here is the pinout for my EGS. The only explicit ground I see are in the X70001 connector. The solenoids in question are all located on the X70004 connector. Which ground is recommended in this case?

TCM for your car:

A7000 AGS transmission control module

Connector overview

Number	X-pin, color	Description
X70001	9-pin, blue	Connector AGS transmission control module Module 1
X70003	52-pin, blue	Connector AGS transmission control module Module 3
X70004	40-pin, blue	Connector AGS transmission control module Module 4

Pin assignments at connector X70001

Pin	Type	Description / Signal type	Connection / Measuring notes
1	E	Voltage supply, terminal 15	Fuse F22
2		Not used
3	E	Diagnosis signal TXD	Data link connector
4	M	Ground	Ground point
5	M	Ground	Ground point
6	M	Ground	Ground point
7	E	Terminal 30 hot at all times	Fuse carrier, engine electronics
8	E	EGS terminal 87 voltage supply	Fuse carrier, engine electronics
9	E	EGS terminal 87 voltage supply	Fuse carrier, engine electronics

Pin assignments at connector X70003

Pin	Type	Description / Signal type	Connection / Measuring notes
1	E	Negative activation EDS, MV	Park/neutral position switch
2	A	P/N lock magnet	Park/neutral position switch
3	A	Transmission range switch position L2 signal	Electronic drive-away protection control unit (EWS)
4		Not used
5		Not used
6		Not used
7		Not used
8		Not used
9	A	Transmission range switch position L6 signal	Program switch
10	A	Transmission range switch position L5 signal	Program switch
11		Not used
12		Not used
13		Not used
14	E	Cruise control signal	Cruise control module (Tempomat)
15	E	Signal Brake light switch	Brake light switch
16	E	Signal Brake light switch	Brake light switch
17	E	Signal Kick-down signal	Kick-down switch
18	A	Transmission position indicator signal	Transmission range indicator light
19	E	Steptronic signal, upshift	Steptronic switch
20	E	Steptronic signal, back	Steptronic switch
21		Not used
22		Not used
23		Not used
24		Not used
25		Not used
26		Not used
27		Not used
28		Not used
29		Not used
30		Not used
31		Not used
32		Not used
33		Not used
34		Not used
35		Not used
36		Not used
37		Not used
38		Not used
39		Not used
40		Not used
41		Not used
42		Not used
43		Not used
44		Not used
45		Not used
46		Not used
47		Not used
48		Not used
49		Not used
50		Not used
51		Not used
52		Not used

Pin assignments at connector X70004

Pin	Type	Description / Signal type	Connection / Measuring notes
1		Not used
2	M	Shield	Shield up to 10mm before transmission
3	A	Output speed sensor (-)	Gearshift unit
4	E	Transmission range switch position L4	Automatic transmission range switch
5	M	Turbine speed shield (-)	Shield up to 10mm before transmission
6	A	Electric pressure actuator EDS5	Gearshift unit
7	A	Electric pressure actuator EDS4	Gearshift unit
8		Not used
9		Not used
10		Not used
11	A	Negative activation EDS, MV	Gearshift unit
12	M	Transmission oil temperature sensor ground (-)	Gearshift unit
13	A	Output speed sensor (-)	Gearshift unit
14	E	Transmission range switch position L3	Automatic transmission range switch
15		Not used
16	A	Solenoid valve 3	Gearshift unit
17	A	Electric pressure actuator EDS3	Gearshift unit
18		Not used
19		Not used
20		Not used
21	A	EDS, MV voltage supply	Gearshift unit
22	A	Transmission oil temperature sensor ground (+)	Gearshift unit
23	A	Turbine speed sensor (-)	Gearshift unit
24	E	Transmission range switch position L2	Automatic transmission range switch
25		Not used
26	A	Solenoid valve 2	Gearshift unit
27	A	Electric pressure actuator EDS2	Gearshift unit
28	A	Electric pressure actuator EDS1	Gearshift unit
29		Not used
30		Not used
31	E	Terminal 15	Automatic transmission range switch
32		Not used
33	A	Turbine speed sensor (+)	Gearshift unit
34	E	Transmission range switch position L1	Automatic transmission range switch
35		Not used
36	E/A	CAN-bus high	Engine control module (DME)
37	E/A	CAN-bus low	Engine control module (DME)
38	A	Solenoid valve 1	Gearshift unit
39		Not used
40		Not used

[E39MGirl]

Hi Green Tiger,

Unfortunately the pinouts won't help in this case unless one is specifically listed as 'solenoid ground' or 'solenoid common +ve'. You will need to look at the wiring diagram for your car - it should show the pin numbers on the drawings and it may be that the solenoids use a common ground (or common +ve) that other components in the transmission use. There will be a common +ve or -ve wire going to one pin that is connected across all of the solenoids, and then the specific solenoids will either powered or switched to ground by individual pins on the AGS to activate them. It will be important to identify which pin is the common +ve or -ve and measure resistance across the wires that activate each solenoid and the common.

If you don't have access to the wiring diagram you could try testing continuity between one of the solenoid activation wires and the various grounds on the other connectors. If you get a 'hit' - i.e. low resistance in the range you are looking for - try the other identified solenoid wires to the same ground and see if you get similar low resistance measures. I can't see a common +ve to solenoids listed above in the pinouts which suggests they have a common ground - that said I note that there is an EDS +ve with activation switching via -ve, so it is possible the AGS in the later cars uses this method to switch the solenoids too.

Unfortunately I can't check the relevant wiring diagram for you because I am switching to a Mac at the moment and organising things so that I can run Windows-based programs, so I am unable to access the WDS online to find the number of the common pin for you. Someone else here might have access to the WDS and be able to do so in the interim.

The below is a link to a picture of the solenoids in an E39 transmission (sorry, not sure which year). Note that there are different coloured wires to activate each solenoid and a single purple/blue wire connected to them all that is either a common -ve or common +ve. You need to find where that wire terminates in the e-box to be able to accurately measure resistance.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0vUIb3BLNlM/maxresdefault.jpg

Andrea

[AK_5eries]

Your help is much appreciated.

Here is an online WDS: http://www.bmw-planet.net/diagrams/

You need latest version of Firefox, Adobe SVG web viewer and latest Java. All instructions to get it up and running are on the front page. I looked at the WDS and I think that ground is either pin 15 or 31 on the X70004 connector. I don't fully understand the diagrams as I have very little electronic background.

The WDS is divided into a pre/post 9/98 for the E39. I have build month 7/98. Interestingly, INPA tells me I have EGS module GS8.60.2 and that is only available after the 9/98 cutoff. Nevertheless, the diagrams that show the X7000X connectors are nearly identical.

I will try the pins later this week.


Side note: Does anyone know how to remove the EGS from the DME box? I know there are two pins that need to be bent back and it should slide right out. But the EGS will not budge.

Edit: I tried using the grounds on the 9 pin connector. I got around 43ohms across all EDS. So that is not the right ground.

[jicaino]

GT my car is down on VR replacement plus some unrelated stuff that since I'm draining coolant I might as well do. I wasn't near the phone when I followed DIS instructions, you cannot activate them solenoids but DIS sends you chechig resistance for each solenoid with the corresponding pin out.
If you haven't tackled it before I do I will hook up DIS again and do some screen captures for you

[E39MGirl]

Hi Green Tiger,

Unfortunately I can't run those programs on my Mac and look at the WDS until I finish setting up to run dual-boot with Windows on the other partition - I can't do that until the anti-virus software I have purchased arrives (not safe). If you are able to post screen shots of the WDS pages that shows the solenoids and the EGS interface (should be on one or two pages only), then I will be able to have a look and let you know which pins to measure resistance over.

Otherwise if Jicaino can give you some instructions that will help, give that a go (or do both I guess).

There is quite a bit of wiring all over the place in the E-Box on late E39s, so just be sure there are no wires in the way that are stopping you from pulling the EGS from its slot once the two spring tabs are pulled back. You might also find it easier if the plugs are removed from the EGS even though there should be enough length in the loom to remove it with the plugs still connected. The only thing holding the EGS unit in is the two tabs, but sometimes they are a bit of a tight fit in the slot they go into.

Andrea

[jicaino]

By all means if Andrea suggests anything I'm not, follow her lead, I'm just trying to help along here.
By the pinout and wiring diagram, the negative for all the EDS and solenoids is pin 11 on the X70004 or pin 1 on the X70003 (should be the same, you could check if there's continuity between them)

[E39MGirl]

Hi Jicaino and Green Tiger,

Good teamwork here :-) Thanks Jicaino for checking WDS why my computer is out of action. Green Tiger, now you should now be able to check continuity between the solenoid activation pins and pin 11 in X70004 (and maybe try pin 1 in X70003) and hopefully get a better idea of where to start looking for issues.

If the resistance is now within specifications then you know the fault is not likely to be an internal fault with the solenoids, or a fault in the wiring loom between the transmission and the E-Box.

If you get high resistance across only one or two solenoids then you can be pretty sure the fault lies with those solenoids or with the wires that activate those solenoids.

If you get high resistance across all of the solenoids then the fault very likely lies with the ground wire - either between the transmission and the E-Box or inside the transmission itself (the common wire in the photo in that link I posted earlier).

If you don't have a pin number diagram for the transmission plug, locate the wires for the solenoids and the ground wires on the transmission plug by gently pulling the cover back on the plug and looking for the correct colour wires on the back of the plug. Once you know which pins to check, test the resistance of the solenoids at the transmission itself - be careful not to damage the pins. If you get high resistance across the same solenoids then the problem is likely internal with those solenoids or their internal wiring. If you get high resistance across all solenoids still, then the fault is likely with the internal ground wire (it is very unlikely all solenoids would fail at once). If you get different results at the transmission to the results you got when tested in the E-Box, then the fault is somewhere in the transmission wiring loom.

It is not uncommon for the wires in the transmission loom to break near the plugs. You can test for this (and other faults) in place by checking resistance of the same wire in the loom at each end. Unplug the transmission loom from the transmission - enlist a (trusted!) assistant to hold a long piece of wire against the pin in the plug in the E-Box and then check resistance between the other end of the piece of wire and the same pin at the transmission end of the wiring loom - resistance for each wire should be virtually zero. The other option is to unplug the loom from the transmission and its retaining clips and gently feed the transmission plug end up into the engine bay where you can test both ends of the same wire without the need for an assistant and long wire - but be warned these looms are getting old now and twisting them around to move them like that might actually break a wire internally that was not broken before.

Andrea

[jicaino]

Hi Jicaino and Green Tiger,

Good teamwork here :-) Thanks Jicaino for checking WDS why my computer is out of action. Green Tiger, now you should now be able to check continuity between the solenoid activation pins and pin 11 in X70004 (and maybe try pin 1 in X70003) and hopefully get a better idea of where to start looking for issues.

If the resistance is now within specifications then you know the fault is not likely to be an internal fault with the solenoids, or a fault in the wiring loom between the transmission and the E-Box.

If you get high resistance across only one or two solenoids then you can be pretty sure the fault lies with those solenoids or with the wires that activate those solenoids.

If you get high resistance across all of the solenoids then the fault very likely lies with the ground wire - either between the transmission and the E-Box or inside the transmission itself (the common wire in the photo in that link I posted earlier).

If you don't have a pin number diagram for the transmission plug, locate the wires for the solenoids and the ground wires on the transmission plug by gently pulling the cover back on the plug and looking for the correct colour wires on the back of the plug. Once you know which pins to check, test the resistance of the solenoids at the transmission itself - be careful not to damage the pins. If you get high resistance across the same solenoids then the problem is likely internal with those solenoids or their internal wiring. If you get high resistance across all solenoids still, then the fault is likely with the internal ground wire (it is very unlikely all solenoids would fail at once). If you get different results at the transmission to the results you got when tested in the E-Box, then the fault is somewhere in the transmission wiring loom.

It is not uncommon for the wires in the transmission loom to break near the plugs. You can test for this (and other faults) in place by checking resistance of the same wire in the loom at each end. Unplug the transmission loom from the transmission - enlist a (trusted!) assistant to hold a long piece of wire against the pin in the plug in the E-Box and then check resistance between the other end of the piece of wire and the same pin at the transmission end of the wiring loom - resistance for each wire should be virtually zero. The other option is to unplug the loom from the transmission and its retaining clips and gently feed the transmission plug end up into the engine bay where you can test both ends of the same wire without the need for an assistant and long wire - but be warned these looms are getting old now and twisting them around to move them like that might actually break a wire internally that was not broken before.

Andrea

Andrea in your experience solenoidsl almost never go bad like in mine? I'd check grounds in and out the tranny pigtail. As per your almost "too detaily" lnstructions, Then, I would check the buses, great doc here> https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57eb43f5...ussystem-1.pdf
which Is the system all of the modules uses for comunication between them. Anything TXD Or IKE High or IKE Low would be the gateway to the modules polling each other, Actually talking Tru various sub buses. One could realize the huge role those buses play integrating the modules.

What I'm trying to say Is that any mishap with data lines, your module archicture will suffer. I'd check the buses while at it.
The connector on the bottom pan looks very sturdy, almost like it could take a lot of abuse and neglection. But hey, Once you're down there, it's just checking another part of the puzzle.

That goes just to say that I believe most of the activating tests failures to be either crashing sw or actual data line disturb

[E39MGirl]

Hi Jicaino,

Lol about the 'too detaily' comment :-) Green Tiger mentioned little previous electronics experience so I erred on the side of caution and included as much detail as I could. Better to be able to say "yeah, I knew that", than to not have enough information IMHO.

The solenoids can and do fail. In my experience this is not common, but I have seen a few. Here is a guy on You-Tube testing a valve body from an X5 with two bad solenoids. As you can see, the good solenoids have winding resistance in the ballpark that ZF says they should be - the two bad units read high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMSPjkvVoA8

If the diagnostic program won't activate the solenoids and they all check out okay along with their wiring, then I would go with your suggestion about re-checking comms. That said, Green Tiger did manage to perform other function tests. I have to say I am suspicious that DIS/GT1 was not able to read the module. In the past when I have seen Autologic fail to connect to a module, it has been because the module is well and truly on the way out.

Andrea

[jicaino]

Hi Jicaino,

Lol about the 'too detaily' comment :-) Green Tiger mentioned little previous electronics experience so I erred on the side of caution and included as much detail as I could. Better to be able to say "yeah, I knew that", than to not have enough information IMHO.

The solenoids can and do fail. In my experience this is not common, but I have seen a few. Here is a guy on You-Tube testing a valve body from an X5 with two bad solenoids. As you can see, the good solenoids have winding resistance in the ballpark that ZF says they should be - the two bad units read high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMSPjkvVoA8

If the diagnostic program won't activate the solenoids and they all check out okay along with their wiring, then I would go with your suggestion about re-checking comms. That said, Green Tiger did manage to perform other function tests. I have to say I am suspicious that DIS/GT1 was not able to read the module. In the past when I have seen Autologic fail to connect to a module, it has been because the module is well and truly on the way out.

Andrea

"almost" too detaily . You could never go wrong about adding details galore.
As for GT's issue, I suspect another issue, like physical wiring loom issues compromising the solenoids and or the data link between the transmission and the EGS. Wiring, or buses (which would be wiring too) or maybe a voltage/supply (alt, VR) issue caught in the early stages.

[AK_5eries]

Thank you so much Andrea and J. Your input is greatly appreciated and has not went unnoticed. I have just have been very busy these last few weeks and my transmission/electronics have not been acting up.

I will get around to testing my harness based on your advice and I will definitely update this thread.

[purplecty]

Did this ever get resolved? I am having a similar issue with my 5hp24