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Thread: MrMuddle's First Turbo Build- E39 528 Budget Build!!

  1. #1
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    MrMuddle's First Turbo Build- E39 528 Budget Build!!

    Hi All, this is my first turbo build so go easy on me! Got a previous build thread here for all the other bits and track days I've done etc, but thought I'd start this one of the turbo build.

    ****Jump to post #16 for build changes.****

    It's a budget build and I've done everything myself with the help of a few mates for bits and bobs. I think so far I've spent just over £1k on all the parts and tools etc.

    Parts List:
    Garrett GTA2559V VNT Turbo (taken off a 3.0 tdi Vectra)
    Ebay Spec 38mm External Wastegate with Screamer Pipe
    DIY Log Mani with 1.5" runners and 2" log
    DIY Downpipe 2" to 2.5"
    DIY Midsection Exhaust 2.5" into modified stock rear section and single stock back box
    570cc Skyline R35 GTR Injectors (work in progress)
    NGK7 plugs gapped to .0024"
    Megasquirt MS2 Ecu running a parallel install with stock ecu
    Innovate MTX-L Wideband
    Ebay Spec Intercooler
    M5 Ally Rad (work in progress)

    Engine is the stock Euro M52 Ally block, so plan is to just run low boost, about 8psi. Once it's been tried and tested I'll then hopefully invest in a decent(budget) clutch and probably MLS HG and something on the head stud front. Car has clocked over 185,000mls now so it's definitely run in!!

    Here's some pics of the build so far and info taken from my other build thread...

    Stock Flanges cut off spare mani's and mocked up on the spare head from my mate Richie


    The log and runners cut before final shaping/grinding back and welding


    Log mani all welded up


    Here's the completed mani along with my downpipe and the start of my screamer pipe


    Here's them all again and my mid section


    This is the turbo I'll be using(I've removed the stock actuator gubbins and locked the vanes in place on the adjuster/spring)


    Here it is all fitted and mounted to the car for a test fit


    Massive thanks to my mate Jason for helping me with the welding, hopefully our welding skills won't make anyone be sick in their mouths!! lol But as long as it works(I hope) it doesn't have to be pretty(that's what I keep telling myself anyway!!!

    ...then after a couple of weeks of fettling and pending newborn baby madness we got to this...

    A pic of mid-MS fitting...look at that lovely wiring!!!



    ...the finished product..





    So that's it, it runs and drives really well. I've road tuned it myself and it's currently running a very conservative spark table and only making about 3psi due to the vanes on the VNT turbo. I'm looking into if I can mount the VNT actuator or a different actuator underneath the turbo and make use of the VNT, otherwise I'll take the turbo apart and remove the VNT vanes.

    I'm currently in the process of finishing the M5 rad install and also making some brackets to mount a modified E36 fuel rail about 14mm lower so I can make use of the Skyline 570cc injectors. Once that's done it'll be back on the road again and hopefully aim for the 8psi or so of boost and fingers crossed my clutch etc can handle it all ok. Oh I'm also making up a support bracket for the turbo which will be bolted the block where the AC unit was, this will then hopefully brace the turbo mani in two places to give it some extra strength and stop it from cracking. Unfortunately I've already had one small crack start on the mani at cyl6, so I think in some places my mig welder hasn't gotten enough heat into the thicker metal of the flange, so that needs sorting too!

    Anyway, thanks for reading, I know its nothing compared to the rest of the builds on here, but I'm just chuffed I managed to complete it and it sounds so good I'm a happy boy.

    Cheers for reading and any comments, bad or good, fire away.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Here's some pics of the M5 Radiator install as it stands now. The expansion bottle is just zip tied in place for now while I make a bracket to hold it fixed in place. I had to use a combination of M52 and M54 hoses. I basically removed the one end from the lower M54 hose and slotted it into a new oem M52 lower hose. Then removed one end from the M54 top hose so it was like the M52 oem style and fitted that. I used a Z3 expansion bottle, cut the oem bottom hose shorter, turned it around and used that.
    I still need to fit and wire up my two 12" spal fans and remove the viscous fan and then I can test it to make sure nothing leaks. I also need to get some hose clamps for the top hose on the expansion bottle to rad.




    Last edited by MrMuddle; 02-04-2020 at 04:54 AM.

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  3. #3
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    I commend the effort, but an ebay turbo manifold would've been a worthwhile investment here. That turbo manifold design is….well let's just say less than ideal...

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    The level of scrounging and DIY here is pretty cool. Whats the inducer size on that turbo? That thing looks really small.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30polak View Post
    I commend the effort, but an ebay turbo manifold would've been a worthwhile investment here. That turbo manifold design is….well let's just say less than ideal...
    lol thanks very much, that's more positive than I thought I was going to get!
    Yeah I did originally try an ebay manifold, but they were all bottom mount design and fouled the head when I flipped it over. I've never built anything like this before and took the log design idea from some LS turbo conversion I'd seen that seemed to work really well. I appreciate it's not ideal, but my main objective was just to see if I 'could' do it and it would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    The level of scrounging and DIY here is pretty cool. Whats the inducer size on that turbo? That thing looks really small.
    lol thanks, I should probably change the name to MrMuddle's junkyard challenge!
    Honest answer on the inducer size, I'm not sure, but it's .61 AR if that helps at all! I just won it cheap on ebay and it seemed a half decent size. I was originally looking at getting an ebay GT35 turbo but decided as I was planning on running such low boost for now there's no point. My main gripe about this car on track was the lack of go out of the corners. The pickup with this turbo is so much better now even at just 3psi! So hopefully at 8psi it'll be even better. It's another reason I'd quite like to get the VNT working so I can benefit from the design. I think the turbo is capable of 22psi with the vanes fully open.

    I know compared to you guys who are running more power than I can dream of this probably seems silly, but even if I can make like 260bhp at say 8psi and the car pulls better and makes sexy turbo noises I'll be a happy bunny!

  6. #6
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    I just looked up the compressor map on Garrett's website, that turbo might not even be able to make 8 psi on an m52 to redline. I think that things goose is about cooked. According to the compressor map it only has it in it to make a little over 200 hp at 8 psi.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  7. #7
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    Ah ok, thanks for looking that up, I don't suppose you still have the link do you? This is all new to me tbh and hoping to use it as a good learning experience and learn as I go. I don't mind swapping in a better turbo, just have to save up some pennies to do so. I'll stick with the current setup for now while I test everything else on the car I've changed and make sure nothing falls off!! lol

    'If' the turbo is good for the power but only made say 200hp at 8psi? Is the limiting factor of a stock ally block, stock compression etc, the amount of boost or the amount of power? So could I increase the boost to say 14psi and make say 230hp or is my engine only going to handle 'safely' 8psi of boost whatever the turbo? I've been working off the understanding that it's the amount of boost, hence why I was planning on only running about 8psi while I make sure the car is reliable.
    Cheers

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    Been a while since an update as I'm slack! I fitted my leccy fans, made a brace for the turbo mani and made up my injectors brackets and fitted the 570cc injectors and it's been running for a while now ok. I'm slowly playing with my boost control as and when I drive the car, currently peaking at about 8psi and holding about 5-6 to the redline. Will keep playing with open loop boost control until I'm making the boost I want and then I'll look at closed loop.
    Car pulls quite nicely now with more boost and I had a play with my dwell and advance table too which made a big difference.


    Here's a pic of the fans..



    ...and fitted in the car...



    ...and just a cheeky one of the front end as I'm a pic whore!!



    I will pull my finger out sometime soon and get an actual video of the car!!


    Oh I also extended my screamer pipe to actually stick out of the bumper a bit with a slash cut end...but don't have a pic of that atm!
    I don't think my ebay wastegate valve is sealing against the fire ring properly so I've ordered a new ring and will try that to see if it's any better!

    That's it for now.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and I've been logging my duty cycle out of interest, at about 5500rpm, 4.5psi and 11.8AFR I'm at about 48% duty cycle. Going off the injector calculators(taken as a rough guide obv) that should mean I'm around 260bhp. With how the car feels and how well it's pulling now, I definitely think this turbo is capable of more than 200bhp at 8psi. So hopefully I can make roughly the power I want for now and stick with this setup. Once I've got my boost control working as I want it making 8psi(ish) to redline I'll log that and see what duty cycles I'm seeing then.

  9. #9
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    I couldn't find a compressor map of the turbo, but I imagine it'll do about 280-300 BHP at the crank turned up. A GT2560R has a 1 mm larger exducer on the compressor wheel, and it'll do 31 lbs/min, or about 300 rwhp turned up.

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    Thanks very much for the info, that sounds positive then.

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    I know it's silly....but.....













    ....my car makes fire!!!!


    Thanks to my mate Richie for the pic!

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    lol, thats pretty cool. I might have to think about doing that myself. Also by the way, I meant that turbo would probably only make about 200 wheel hp before its off the compressor map. I'm quite certain it makes more than 200 brake hp lol.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  13. #13
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    I didn't think it would make flames that big, explains why my bumper keeps looking chargrilled!! lol
    When photobucket is working again I'll upload a pic showing what the screamer looks like coming out the bumper when it's not making fire!!

    Ah ok no worries, I thought you meant just the max power it could make, my mistake!

    I was quite chuffed on Wednesday night, I met up with a few mates who have supercharged and turbo'd mx5's, the fastest one running about 280bhp. I was able to keep up with them all in a straight line and the fastest one only pulled about one car length on me, so was happy with that at just about 3-5psi! His car is like my benchmark, so if I can get mine to be able to keep up on initial acceleration and through the gears I'll know my car is heading in the right direction. Hopefully that'll then mean everyone won't pull on me exiting corners on track then!

    I tell you, I feel like a complete numpty talking about trying to keep up with 280bhp mx5's when you're all putting down such massive numbers!! lol ....but I guess we've all got to start somewhere!!

    Oh and I did have a slight worry on my way home, oil was spitting out my oil filler cap!! This was when I was playing with CL boost control and with overshoots it made about 13psi a couple of times, but only for like a millisecond or so before overboost protection kicked in! I had changed my crankcase breather earlier in the day too and basically just added a breather filter to the end of the hose which runs just past the subframe! I'm going to take that off and check the seal on the oil cap and test it again, fingers crossed it doesn't do it again! I also keep meaning to do a compression test just to check the numbers compared to when I did one a while back!

  14. #14
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    Been a while since I updated this! Car has been running well, I've clocked up a few thousand miles since the last update, car is now on almost 193,000mls! Nothing exciting to update, but I did change my propshaft centre bearing and flex disc yesterday as I had a horrible vibration when driving and could shake the prop around by hand!

    Mot is up next month which I'm sure will be fun and then on the 27th of May I've got a rolling road day booked to see what power it's making! Doing a day with some mates so should be a good laugh.

    Still need to update the MS firmware to use the better CL boost control which I haven't gotten around to doing yet, but hopefully will do soon to get sorted before the rolling road day.

    Oh and I did do a compression test as well, lowest value was 216 and the biggest difference between cylinders was I think 8! So still healthy!
    Last edited by MrMuddle; 04-19-2017 at 09:38 AM.

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    So I did the rolling road yesterday, the car made 192.6whp at 5,683rpm and 213FtLb at 3,764rpm. Boost was 8.5psi at 2800rpm but that tapered down to 5.5psi at 5200rpm!

    So that gave me estimated flywheel figures of 256bhp and 279FtLb. Pretty happy with the results but think I definitely need a bigger turbo if I want to make more power, as someguy2800 said above.
    Car does pull really well though, I actually did 6 runs on the day, 3 runs initially where I made 186.7whp and 205FtLb, then I popped out for 20 mins, added 2* advance, stopped mat correction from adding too much fuel over 40c(was seeing 52c intake temps on the RR!!) and managed to up the initial boost from 8psi to 8.5psi!

    All in all a good day and has given me some good food for thought. Was nice to see improvements could still be made when I made some adjustments too.

    I'll post up pictures of my graphs when I get a min too.

  16. #16
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    So, been a while since I updated this. After my last post I carried on with the car as is and as I couldn't really increase the boost, I started to look at trying to push the ignition timing to see what it would take. Car made it to just over 204,000mls before it went bang! Destroyed the rings on cyl2 and ate some of the cylinder wall so it was down to 5 cylinders! I realised as I stripped it down that it was a Nikasil block too, so didn't fare too bad considering!

    This was the damage after I stripped the engine down to check it...


    So then I was trying to decide what route to go with the car, my mate offered me a free m50 iron block, I bought a bigger ebay GT35 turbo, 3" pipework to make a new downpipe and exhaust and a few other bits and pieces. Unfortunately when the block went to the machine shop to be checked it was well outside tolerance with cylinder wear, I didn't want to fork out for a re-bore and bigger pistons etc, so scrapped the M50 idea!

    I then stumbled across another M52B28 for sale locally to me for £150, with spare ZF gearbox and exhaust mani, inlet mani etc, so seemed a steal. No history on it, but I decided to take a chance on it. So I picked it up, went about swapping parts over like the sump etc and put it in the car. I did take lots of pics throughout the build, but unfortunately my phone memory carddied on me so I lost most of them!
    Anyway, got the engine in the car, I also bought and fitted an M50 inlet mani, re-made the exhaust mani for the bigger turbo, made a 3" downpipe and 3" full system. Put it all in the car and was happy to see the engine ran and made over 200psi compression on all 6 cylinders, winner!!

    Here's a few pics I have got....

    New Turbo


    Starting to change the turbo mani for the new elbow and new turbo flange..


    New 3" Downpipe...


    This is what it looked like all back together..



    The new turbo and exhaust definitely sorted out the boost drop off issues, but the new turbo was quite laggy compared to the old turbo which was a bit of a disappointment. Hopefully long term will mean more boost and a quicker car overall though.

    Anyway, I managed just over 1000mls with the new engine until disaster struck again, again cylinder 2 died on me, this time with a nice big chunk taken out of the piston crown but no other damage!

    Dead no2 piston! The cylinder walls were so shiny!! lol



    So that brings us up to today, car is sat in pieces on the drive. It seems a bit strange that both times I lost cylinder 2, so wondering if I've got an issue elsewhere, like maybe with my injectors. I did test the resistance on them and they all seem ok though!!

    So I've decided this time I'm going to rebuild the engine but aim to make it an M52B30 as a mate has the M54B30 bottom end and cams for £100. Hopefully there is no other damage to my new(er) engine block which is an ally block not nikasil. I've decided I'm going to change the injectors for some new 650cc Bosch ones, upgrade the fuel pump and also invest in some decent knock control, as I'm not convinced the Megasquirt knock control is actually doing anything!
    I'm also thinking about fitting a lightweight flywheel and upgrading the clutch while the car's in pieces, so hopefully then when it all goes back together it will be much better than before.

    Hoping to start the rebuild in the next couple of weeks and get the car back on the road. I haven't managed a single track day this year and I was hoping to do loads this year! So I'm itching to get out on track!

    Thanks for reading and hopefully be more updates soon with decent pics!!

  17. #17
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    That is unfortunate... but it's a decent learning process even though easily avoidable with some effort/planning.

    You should really, really consider a proper exhaust manifold. It will be a benefit just about everywhere... spool, knock resistance, etc.

    And then get your injectors cleaned/flowed for piece of mind and consider a compression lowering head gasket like an MLS or Cooper Ring gasket.
    Last edited by NOTORIOUS VR; 06-22-2018 at 09:27 AM.

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    Both pistons show signs of constant detonation (the eroded/fuzzy parts of the piston, guessing that's on the exhaust side of the piston too which tends to be the first to experience detonation).

    The exhaust manifold isn't helping at all as mentioned, and something with better flow will give you a higher resistance to detonation.

  19. #19
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    Thanks very much both, that's really helpful. I was pushing the ignition advance quite a lot the second time, so only got myself to blame think! It did pull like a trooper before it died though! I think it was about 19* at 10psi. I'm definitely going to look into some other form of knock detection before I get it running again.

    I'm going to change the injectors as I'm currently running R35 GTR injectors and they're shorter than normal BMW injectors, so I had to make brackets to replace the fuel rail mounting points so the rail sat lower. I'm going to get some injectors that are actually for my car so I can bin my brackets as they're fugly and then mount the rail normally!

    In regards to the exhaust manifold, it is a bit of an abomination, but was my first attempt at building a manifold. Do you think I'd have to go tubular or would a better designed log manifold be ok?

    I'll also be running a low comp hg with the new build. I'd like to try and do this next build properly and invest a bit more money in it all. Up until now it's been a proper budget build, which has been fun, but I think there's only so many times I can pull an engine out before it gets tiresome!

    Thanks again

  20. #20
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    These engines move A LOT of air... exhaust side has everything to do with detonation resistance... too small of a turbo? poor flowing exhaust? poor flowing manifold? all contribute to a lower knock threshold.

    Certainly with your old setup you would have to be conservative with ignition timing especially when starting to ride the limits of the turbo's efficiency.

    With you going to a GT35 sized turbo and stepping up to a 3L a properly designed manifold is really the next logical step. Can you make a "better" log manifold? sure. Is it worth it? I don't think so. Even some China top mount would do better here or and RSI maybe if you're looking for something with a bit more QC control/heft.

  21. #21
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    Everything is an evolution. I know your right hand drive which really limits you on the turbo manifold. This is the manifold I made for my M20 about 12 years ago.





    If you could at least curve the runners in the right direction then what you would have would functionally be pretty much the same thing as what a cast SPA manifold looks like inside. A thicker head gasket or a water meth kit would also help matters considerably, and probably would help to a greater extent than a new manifold. I have seen some testing of fully divided long tube headers vs manifolds on both NA and turbo cars, and the difference is not always as big as one may think it is.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

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    Thanks very much both, really helpful info as always.

    I'm more than happy to make a new manifold, it'll just take me a bit more time to build it. The main issue with RHD is having the manifold out the way enough for the downpipe to clear the steering. It just clears atm with the 3" downpipe.

    If I was to re-make the manifold and stick to a similar design, would there be any benefit in using a larger main pipe like I have now. So a all the runners flowing in the right direction but into the larger 2" pipe. Or would it be fine to just have all the runners the same size, joining together which then flows into a 2" step up for the turbo flange?

    I'm guessing into a larger pipe would probably be better as ones like the SPA mani appear to have a larger overall diameter as they approach the turbo flange, not sure what they're like internally though?

    Excuse the amazing drawing....but something like this...
    Amazing Paint Skills.jpg

    ....it's ok to laugh out loud at that drawing!! lol

    I did try a cheap ebay cast manifold before, but if you use them as a top mount the turbo would foul the head, so you'd have to make basically an extension section to move the turbo forward. I preferred the idea of making my own to be honest, plus it's a learning experience.

    Also what about IC pipework diameter, any recommendations there on the best size to use to increase spool up time?

    As much as I'd love 400+hp, what I really want is better acceleration/pick up so I can try and chase down faster/smaller/lighter cars out of the corners on track.
    Last edited by MrMuddle; 06-25-2018 at 04:57 AM.

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    2.5 inch intercooler piping should be fine. Most manufacturers nowadays run that in 300whp turbo cars. As for lowering the compression that will help a lot. I never run more than 15*timing or else I REALLY feel the knock through my foot. E85 would be different if you had that. With 9.0:1 compression you should be able to run 15psi and have a nice track car. A better log mani does help as well. Tubular are good but make sure you have great heat management or wraps on your exhaust side.

  24. #24
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    Thanks very much for the info. I think I may need to look at upgrading my intercooler as well then as it was just a cheap ebay one and I think the inlet/outlet is only 2" but my pipework is either 2.25 or 2.5", I'll have to check!

    I've put together a list of parts I think I need to upgrade/change(also to help my remember!!), if anyone has any suggestions would be great...

    1. Lightweight flywheel - you can pickup reasonably cheap S50 single mass flywheels over here, about £200.
    2. Upgraded clutch - how much do you reckon a Sachs S50 M3 clutch could take? My Sachs m52b28 clutch took around 10psi. Otherwise what about the FX Racing clutches, stage 3 or 4?
    3. Fuel pump - would I need to upgrade the FPR as well or rail if going for like a 340lph pump over a 255? If I can get one to support E85 it may be worth it.
    4. Injectors - I'm thinking 650cc, any suggestions, Siemens, Bosch etc?
    5. Intercooler - I'll look at getting a similar size but with larger core/pipework.
    6 Turbo Manifold - I'll make a new log style similar to the SPA style.
    7. M54B30 Bottom End and Inlet Cam - Hopefully got that sorted already from a mate.
    8. Knock detection - I've got the KnockTek conditioner with MS2, but any suggestions on something decent, like some sort of knock led so I can visually see if it's knocking? It doesn't have to work with MS but if it does and is better than the KnockTek I can ditch the KnockTek.

    Any other suggestions? Hopefully that doesn't all cost me a small fortune! lol

  25. #25
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    1. Lightweight flywheel - you can pickup reasonably cheap S50 single mass flywheels over here, about £200.
    I dont see any benefits from it. single mass is good, maybe pick up a cheaper one off an m30 (240mm). m30 flywheel needs m30 starter as well, but thats about it. more starter powa and you can run uprated S38 clutch that is good for tons of torque

    2. Upgraded clutch - how much do you reckon a Sachs S50 M3 clutch could take? My Sachs m52b28 clutch took around 10psi. Otherwise what about the FX Racing clutches, stage 3 or 4?
    See point 1

    3. Fuel pump - would I need to upgrade the FPR as well or rail if going for like a 340lph pump over a 255? If I can get one to support E85 it may be worth it.
    Nope. Ran my Walbro GST450k intank on a stock rail + stock fpr.

    4. Injectors - I'm thinking 650cc, any suggestions, Siemens, Bosch etc?
    Depending on power goals. Plenty of calculators online. Make sure you get genuine ones, not chinese copies. Siemens Dekas or Bosch Greentops for instance. Watch out as there are tons of fakes out there. Sometimes its better to buy used overhauled and flowmatched ones..

    5. Intercooler - I'll look at getting a similar size but with larger core/pipework.
    Whatever fits.

    6 Turbo Manifold - I'll make a new log style similar to the SPA style.
    Maybe take a look in my E21 turbo build and pick up some inspiration. M52 ones can be easily modified to be proper turbo manifolds.

    7. M54B30 Bottom End and Inlet Cam - Hopefully got that sorted already from a mate.
    Not an expert in M54 Cams, but bottom end should be no problem.

    8. Knock detection - I've got the KnockTek conditioner with MS2, but any suggestions on something decent, like some sort of knock led so I can visually see if it's knocking? It doesn't have to work with MS but if it does and is better than the KnockTek I can ditch the KnockTek.
    Hmm, i got not enough experience in knock detection to help you out here...
    1982 E21 323i
    M50B25 Turbo
    Borg Warner S362 SX-E
    ECU Master Emu


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