Rough idle after warm up. Hrmm...

[JimLev]

Thanks for the info. Good info in that PDF.
In the past I bought parts from a place in CO, the bearings were good quality, the VR was from China and didn't work. They replaced it, that one didn't work either.
To pull the rear bearing I bought a small non adjustable puller from AutoZone and ground the end fingers down.

[jicaino]

Good to hear you're back on this. Do this test: unplug the VR, start the car, don't rev it, just let it idle. Idles fine?

Those VRs (I mean all of the aftermarket VRs you can get for the water cooled alternator) can be a little sketchy regarding QC. I got lucky.

As for the rear bearing, I removed it with a crudely hacked slide hammer. I used a long threaded rod, a piece of scrap steel, and 2 nuts. One of the nuts was ground to clear the rear bearing ID but acted as a J hook for the slide hammer (drilled the scrap steel stock, inserted the long threaded rod thru, installed both nuts at the ends, used the ground nut as the puller)

[waters17]

No real difference in idle when I unplug it.

I did leave it idling for a bit and a ticking sound started. -the noise was coming from the alternator. It was almost like an electric arcing sound. The frequency of the sound started kind of slow but consistent, but then it started going faster. It wasn't matching the RPMs though. I unplugged the VR, started it back up, and the sound was gone. I turned the car off, plugged the VR back in, then started it up. No ticking sound.

I sure hope I didn't botch the rebuild. We'll see how the week progresses.

[jicaino]

Have you measured directly at the alternator terminals with a DMM ?

As for the rough idle itself, maybe you could pull the plugs and see if a failing alternator altered the fuel/air metering (MAF, O2 sensors, DME feedback data lines) resulting in fouled plugs?

- - - Updated - - -

And I checked the whole thread, could you make a quick vid of the car idling when it acts up?

[waters17]

That's a good idea about the plugs. I haven't measured the terminals directly. I'm thinking I'd need some alligator clips, which I don't have. I'm wondering if it would be beneficial to clear the adaptations. I don't know how much help a video would be. The only thing I can think of to illustrate it is by shooting a video of the OBC while idling. The idle is currently maxed out and it constantly fluctuates about 30 rpms.

I've read that the benefits of a new alternator won't be super apparent when first installed. I think because it needs to charge the battery back up. I've got about 20 miles on the rebuilt alternator so far, and the idle seems a bit better than before. -backing out of the garage doesn't seem to bog it down anymore. I'll get a better idea of the rough idle when I'm stuck in traffic tomorrow. Today the average voltage showed 13.6V to 14.3 volts. Mostly 13.9V to 14.0V. I think I should do a bit more driving before I jump to any conclusions.

[waters17]

I've done a bit more driving since my last post. The voltage has stayed pretty consistent, so that's a good feeling.

I decided to look more into the unmetered air issue, and setup the torque app to monitor the short term fuel trim vs the long term fuel trim on banks 1 & 2. I revved the motor at 2500 rpm for a minute or so and monitored the results. The short term sort of bounced around and varied (bank 1 was reading a little more positive than bank 2, but sometimes they would match up). The long term was matched perfectly between the two. I even went for a drive for a few miles, and the results were similar. STFT varied, where LTFT changed value, but remained the same between the two banks.

I had to scratch an itch, so Wednesday I ordered a new CCV and pre-cat O2 sensors. The O2 sensors arrived today, but the tracking info on the CCV still says 'shipping label created'. Anyway, I was looking at the CCV today and noticed that there's a bit of oil that had leaked on it.

I photoshopped the location of the oil for reference.
602357_x800-oil.jpg


Here's an actual pic of the oil coverage. It's difficult to get a good pic back there.
ccv-oil.jpg


My assumption is that it's leaking from that round diaphragm cover. Hopefully the new CCV will be the solution to my problem.

[jicaino]

Good to know. It might be... I would bet on pre 02 sensors higher odds than on CCV, given all of the previously discussed backhistory.

Change them O2 sensors first, don't do many things all at once, that way you can learn what effect each change has and hof it affects the performance.

[JimLev]

There should be no oil leaking out of the CCV. If there is that is letting unmetered air into the intake which is messing with your trims.
Change the CCV first, clear out your adaptations and see what your fuel trims read.

[waters17]

I wish I could have changed the CCV today.

Tracking info was finally updated for the CCV, and it won't be here until Wednesday. Which is annoying because I'm a 1 day point from ECS, and they shipped FedEx who delivers on Saturday. I need to find a local place that carries metric hardware so I can replace the CCV screws with hex heads.

This morning I installed the new O2 sensors, reset the adaptations, and there was no difference. Rough idle is still present. <-which would coincide with what Jim said.

I also checked for errors in INPA and this is what she's telling me. *Note* I have my idle speed maxed out to reduce the roughness of the idle. That's why the engine speed is showing at 680rpm.

E R R O R M E M O R Y R E P O R T
-------------------------------------
Date: 12/31/16 10:22:03
ECU: ME72KWP1
JobStatus: OKAY
Variant: ME72KWP1
-------------------------------------------------------------
RESULT: 2 errors in error memory !
-------------------------------------------------------------
93 Tank-ventilation functional check
Error frequency : 5
Logistic counter: 29

Error occured 1. times at:
Engine speed 680.00 /min
relative air charged (rl) 15.75 %
Ambient temperature 4.50 Grd C
Ambient-pressure 985.00 hPa

Error occured 2. times at:
Engine speed 680.00 /min
relative air charged (rl) 15.75 %
Ambient temperature -11.25 Grd C
Ambient-pressure 990.00 hPa

Error occured 3. times at:
Engine speed 680.00 /min
relative air charged (rl) 14.25 %
Ambient temperature -2.25 Grd C


-------------------------------------------------------------
81 Secondary air system Bank2
Error frequency : 1
Logistic counter: 28
frm2 0.88
lamsons2 1.00
factor


From what I've read, the 93 Tank-ventilation issue could be due to an old fuel filler cap, or the valve itself. I'm going to clean the terminals on the valve, and then get a new cap. If it comes down to it, I'll spend the $80 on the new valve.

The 81 Secondary air system Bank2 issue.. I believe that is the result of a brittle hose I broke when I was doing my timing chain guides. I threw some tape on it at the time and forgot about it. So I'll need to get another hose.


*edit*
Yeah, I'd say the filler cap is due.
fuelcap.jpg

[waters17]

I changed out the CCV last night. Let me tell you... If you've got the intake manifold off for any reason whatsoever, and you think you probably should change the CCV, then change it. I replaced the gasket on it 7 months ago.. Why didn't I change it out then?!

5 of the 7 screws came out with no problems, but the following two screws stripped. The upper screw was easy to remove with visegrips, but the lower one really gave me the middle finger.
strippedccv.jpg

I ended up wasting about an hour trying to figure out how to get at that screw, but finally resorted to the forums for help. I read a post where a guy had used a chisel and a hammer to break off everything in his way so he could get visegrips on that lower screw. That did the trick for me too.

I then took a drive to Home Depot, and their metric inventory was horrible. I've got 4 flange head screws and 3 hex head screws with washers holding on the new CCV.

So far, I've replaced the CCV, fuel cap, intake filter, throttle body, and the pre-cat O2 sensors. The idle is still the same. :/ I reset the adaptations before starting it up, but forgot to clear any error codes. I really envy all you guys with the nice weather states or heated garages. It's not fun doing this stuff when it's 8°F (-13°C) outside.

[waters17]

Last weekend, i replaced the bank 1 valve cover gasket, and upper timing cover gasket. Today I added washers to the intake manifold fasteners and it made no difference.

It runs okay for the first minute or two when the secondary air pump is on, but once the air pump stops, it immediately starts in with the rough idle.

It seems to hold a vacuum. Ive tried a smoke test and it showed no signs of leaking. Today after the motor had been cooling for a few hours and I unplugged one of the vacuum lines that was connected to a 3-4" long cylindrical cannister. Once I unplugged it, I could hear pressure releasing.

Why is it lean in bank 1 only?
If it were the MAF or fuel filter, i'd have codes or issues with both banks, right? And why don't I have any codes? I don't even have errors in the memory.
Could it be a bad injector?

[jicaino]

Last weekend, i replaced the bank 1 valve cover gasket, and upper timing cover gasket. Today I added washers to the intake manifold fasteners and it made no difference.

It runs okay for the first minute or two when the secondary air pump is on, but once the air pump stops, it immediately starts in with the rough idle.

It seems to hold a vacuum. Ive tried a smoke test and it showed no signs of leaking. Today after the motor had been cooling for a few hours and I unplugged one of the vacuum lines that was connected to a 3-4" long cylindrical cannister. Once I unplugged it, I could hear pressure releasing.

Why is it lean in bank 1 only?
If it were the MAF or fuel filter, i'd have codes or issues with both banks, right? And why don't I have any codes? I don't even have errors in the memory.
Could it be a bad injector?

Oooffff... What a pain in the neck! It could be a bleeding lifter on that bank... Or particularly dirty/cruddy lifters feed gallery on that head, resulting in poor intake lift... Have you ever tried an oil system flush?

[waters17]

With seafoam or something similar? I've always been nervous about doing that on a higher mileage motor. I read a lot of horror stories about the flush doing too well of a job and causing gasket leaks. Could just be internet lore though.

I've got 147k miles on the motor. Do you have any suggestions on which product to use for the flush?

I am considering replacing the fuel tank breather valve. you know.. just to throw more money at the problem.

What's really driving me nuts is that the change occurred right after I did the vanos/chains/valley pan.

[jicaino]

Maybe when you did the vanos a little crud was released into the oil passages, it makes sense as the lifter and the vanos shares an oil gallery IIRC.

I used LiquiMoly Engine Flush. 2 cans into the pan, let it idle or drive with very light throttle pressure/load for about 10/15 minutes, drain immediately, let it bleed a good 2 hours before buttoning up her blouse and skirt.

If you can get those fancy "euro diesel" formulations (or V-power diesel fuel from shell) you can go ahead and use 800cc (a pint?) of that instead of 2 cans of the engine flush. It's the same thing.

I use it once a year since I had that issue with the oil pump being scored internally (it looked like sand got into it) and the engine is happy, nice and very clean inside. My guides looks better now than before flushing it repeatedly (I flush almost every other oil change) and they look like they have 15k miles while I'm closer to a 100. My engine idles very steady and happy.

Another thing I'd try is switching the VANOS solenoids from bank to bank and see if the errors/mischief follows a solenoid from bank to bank.

[waters17]

Figures, I changed my oil about 500 miles ago. Damn, it might be worth it to do the flush and change it again though. -I've got 5qts of oil saved up from previous oil changes, so at least it'll be a half price oil change this time.

I'm wanting to say I've tried swapping the solenoids already, but I can't say for sure. Multiple DIS tests have shown the solenoids functioning properly, and the mpg needle seems to show the vanos working properly.

I'm going to be doing a clutch job soon, and I've allotted myself $1,500-$2,000 for parts, so I'm probably going to change a few things out in addition to the clutch job and oil flush.

My extras list:
Rear O2 sensors (fronts were changed a few months ago)
Fuel tank breather valve
Fuel filter
air injection check valve
oil cap
Possibly a new MAF

I'll try to change out one at a time and test the results, but I'm not making any promises.

[jicaino]

Figures, I changed my oil about 500 miles ago. Damn, it might be worth it to do the flush and change it again though. -I've got 5qts of oil saved up from previous oil changes, so at least it'll be a half price oil change this time.

I'm wanting to say I've tried swapping the solenoids already, but I can't say for sure. Multiple DIS tests have shown the solenoids functioning properly, and the mpg needle seems to show the vanos working properly.

I'm going to be doing a clutch job soon, and I've allotted myself $1,500-$2,000 for parts, so I'm probably going to change a few things out in addition to the clutch job and oil flush.

My extras list:
Rear O2 sensors (fronts were changed a few months ago)
Fuel tank breather valve
Fuel filter
air injection check valve
oil cap
Possibly a new MAF

I'll try to change out one at a time and test the results, but I'm not making any promises.

How's that "MPG needle shows VANOS function" thing? I guess one learns something new every day!

[waters17]

Just watch the mpg needle when you change gears and slowly accelerate. The mpg and the rpms won't coincide. You'll see the mpg needle hovering around 8mpg and then suddenly jump to the mid 20's and sit there. You can also sort of goose the accelerator and force the mpg needle to adjust.

I can only assume this is the vanos kicking in. Try it out let me know what you think.

[jicaino]

Oh I understand now... I think of the MPG needle as my IKE wife. I know it's there but I don't pay attention to what she has to say or do as she seems to think I should.

[waters17]

Hahahaha You always got jokes.

I grabbed some data using the Torque app today. I'm going to do some more research on how engines should run, but in the meantime, anybody interested in analyzing my data?

The data captures a cold start and idling for about 12 minutes.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...DoyQgO6LwxDCA/


You can see when the secondary air pump shuts off after 2 minutes. The large spike is me revving it to 2600rpm for a little bit.
Attachment 594058

[waters17]

Okay, so here's a better graph of what's going on with my car.

Bank 1 seems to be running slightly more lean than bank 2.
The negative fuel trim at the 2,600 RPM rev suggests vacuum leak, correct? It's affecting both trims though.
The maf seems fairly consistent.
Attachment 594112

The STFT is horrible at first, but seems to balance itself out after about 6 minutes of idling (3:18), but then starts running lean on both banks.

I almost wonder if my timing is off. I timed it twice and it still never came in right, so I adjusted the trigger wheel a bit manually just and that cleared the code. Maybe I need to rent the GAS tools and re-time it again.

[jicaino]

Okay, so here's a better graph of what's going on with my car.

Bank 1 seems to be running slightly more lean than bank 2.
The negative fuel trim at the 2,600 RPM rev suggests vacuum leak, correct? It's affecting both trims though.
The maf seems fairly consistent.
Attachment 594112

The STFT is horrible at first, but seems to balance itself out after about 6 minutes of idling (3:18), but then starts running lean on both banks.

I almost wonder if my timing is off. I timed it twice and it still never came in right, so I adjusted the trigger wheel a bit manually just and that cleared the code. Maybe I need to rent the GAS tools and re-time it again.

I was thinking 2 other suggestions: move the pre O2 sensors from side to side, and check timing.
I've read a very nice (and detailed, as usual) writeup by Geargrinder, and I think when I have to do guides, I will spin the motor 4 times (and reaajust timing each turn) before call it timed.

[waters17]

The pre-cat O2 sensors are only a few weeks old. After I installed them, I didn't notice any difference.

Ughhh.. I'm not looking forward to re-timing it. When I timed it (last year), I only turned over once. Everything seemed fine, but I still got a timing error on the dash. Can't remember the code. I think it was for bank 2. I re-timed it (again turned over 1 time), and still had the same error on the dash. I did some research and thought it might be the trigger wheel, so I turned the trigger wheel about 1 degree (can't remember which direction), and the code on the dash went away. Unfortunately, I can't remember if the idle was bad during that time or not.

So I don't know if my ebay ETK tools are insufficient timing tools, or if I just need to re-time and use the above method. I'm thinking I should rent some quality tools, if only to eliminate them from the equation.

[jicaino]

What happened with this? (Also, I know I haven't turned those aux fan bushings, sorry... my shop has been extremely busy and I have reached a spot where my car is behaving peaches and cream with me)

[waters17]

Nothing yet. I'm going to re-time it. I originally timed it with a cheapo ebay EWK (koch style) kit. However, about a month ago I bought the GAS timing tools along with a bunch of other parts (can't remember what right now), but I've been working Saturdays lately, so there hasn't been much car time. I'm probably going to re-time it in a few weeks. Maybe this weekend, but I'm not sure.

Haha, I had forgotten about the bushings.

[waters17]

UPDATE

I re-timed the motor with the GAS tools and replaced the intake manifold gaskets. The valve cover on bank 1 appeared to be leaking at the top side right above piston 4, but it was more like a misty solenoid gasket leak. So that laid the sticky foundation for dust to stick to, and it appeared to make a trail leading to the intake manifold gasket that sits over pistons 3 and 4.

So far, the idle seems much more steady, but I have yet to connect it to the laptop to verify. I also need to set the idle speed back to default -it's currently maxed out. We have plans tonight and tomorrow, but I'll hook it up on Wednesday and report back.