front wheel set rearward in wheel well - possible solutions?

[Timm]

It's unusual to see a photograph of the E31 absolutely side-on, but when I have a good look at one - I find that they all have the front wheel further back in the arch than central. I wonder if we are hunting something that isn't a problem. Here's my current E31:



....and here's a picture of my first one, actually from the advert before I bought it:



Both of them show the front wheel slightly further back in the arch and neither one has caused an ounce of a problem. Now if you have problems with clearance then possibly you have other problems such as the wrong wheel offset, the rolling radius is oversize or bushes that have failed - but, I think trying to get the wheel central in the arch is not going to happen!

[clockwork]

hey Timm, I added to the first post of this thread a new pic from 2008 when the same wheels/tyre diameter were as now YET the wheel is perfectly centered. Since this pic I have installed new EVERYTHING, lastly was the Wokke Upper Control Arms with spherical bushing. As soon as that was installed on both sides, thats when I noticed the wheel sitting so far rearward (more vertical caster) than any other time.
I'd love to figure this mystery out as many others have been afflicted with same issue as me where the tire now scrapes the inside black wheel well liner.

[Timm]

My point is that both of my cars show the exact same positioning of the front wheels - and yours is in the same position after changing most of the front suspension - so I don't think replacing parts is going to make the slightest bit of difference. Your present problem is that the front tyres foul the arch liner - but those wheels aren't the correct ones for the E31 - what are the offsets? What is your front tyre size?

I think you came to this place because of the tyre fouling the liner - but I don't think your front wheel placement is the cause!

[Fatandre]

My problem is that the left wheel sits further back than the right one

[clockwork]

Your present problem is that the front tyres foul the arch liner - but those wheels aren't the correct ones for the E31 - what are the offsets? What is your front tyre size?

I think you came to this place because of the tyre fouling the liner - but I don't think your front wheel placement is the cause!

Timm, i politely disagree. I have had these same wheels and tire sizes since 2008 when i bought the car and as you can see in my middle pic from post #1 the wheels were perfectly centered there. Since they were correct back then with NO issues how could they now be the potential problem? They cant be. Something else has had to change over last few years to cause wheels to be more rearward.

I understand many others have same issue where wheel sits further rearward and no one has wheel arch liner rub issues but that does not take away from the fact that something has changed their wheel caster angle from factory spec either tho. Question is what... i just want my wheels fitment to look like the wheels did back in 2008.

[wokke]

I never had any E31 in my shop where the front wheels were positioned exactly in the middle of the wheel arch. What Timm's pictures show is normal and OK.
I'd dare to say if a front wheel sits exactly in the middle then something is wrong.

[Fatandre]

I never had any E31 in my shop where the front wheels were positioned exactly in the middle of the wheel arch. What Timm's pictures show is normal and OK. I'd dare to say if a front wheel sits exactly in the middle then something is wrong.

My left sits further back than the right one

[dragon850]

Guys, 15 years ago I was determined to figure this out, the conclusion I came to with Mwrench is that E31 strut itself can and does deform resulting in the wheel sitting further back. My drivers side wheel was so far back it was rubbing the back liner which it never did before. Final solution was to replace strut with a low mileage example, that fixed it. Thankfully I do not have the same problem on my current 8 with 48k miles on it.

[clockwork]

Ed, so you're thinking the strut tube (and therefore gas shock tube inside this strut) bends over time/abuse?
Wouldn't you see the curvature if it was bending?
I have to say nothing else is making sense to why I had a perfectly centered wheel/tire and now the same wheel/tire diaMeter are now less centered.

[dragon850]

Ed, so you're thinking the strut tube (and therefore gas shock tube inside this strut) bends over time/abuse?
Wouldn't you see the curvature if it was bending?
I have to say nothing else is making sense to why I had a perfectly centered wheel/tire and now the same wheel/tire diaMeter are now less centered.

I believe the deformation was more at the strut mount? When I removed it I did not visually see any obvious bends, but did not take time to measure everything either, swapping a low mileage strut fixed the problem with all the same suspension components that were change before anyway. IMO it can only be the strut itself
I had replaced every single component in the front suspension $$$$$ trying to fix this, nothing worked till I changed the strut itself.

[clockwork]

I've done what you've done. Maybe I will have to look at struts too then.

[8Tech]

Irrespective of a bent front strut, the lower position of the strut is set by the lower control arms. A bent strut would therefore make no difference to where the lower end of the strut sits.

A simple camber/caster alignment will show whether that front wheel is sitting correctly or not. To alter the caster, you either need adjustable top mounts (which will not alter the wheel position), or adjustable upper control arms (which will) or even eccentric bushes in the upper arms like BMW fit on the Euro M3 Evo.

[Fatandre]

Well. After doing an alignment on my car they had no problem adjusting it right even if my wheel sits a bit back

[clockwork]

Irrespective of a bent front strut, the lower position of the strut is set by the lower control arms. A bent strut would therefore make no difference to where the lower end of the strut sits.

A simple camber/caster alignment will show whether that front wheel is sitting correctly or not. To alter the caster, you either need adjustable top mounts (which will not alter the wheel position), or adjustable upper control arms (which will) or even eccentric bushes in the upper arms like BMW fit on the Euro M3 Evo.

this is exactly my thoughts after doing more research about adjustable caster plates. They will not help. Its a lower attachment point thats causing an issue.
a good friend (CdnAlpina) brought up a point, which I don't think is correct, BUT none the less worth mentioning/discussing.
The Wokke spherical bushing hole is centralized in the bushing, where as on a BMW bushing for the Upper Control arm maybe offset (didnt have a spare OE one for an e31 to confirm) and the fact that its rubber may act in a way that it deforms enough when loaded up so that the caster of car is where it SHOULD be and not taught like the Wokke bushing MAY be accidently causing.

Does anyone with Wokke spherical bearings installed have a pic of how their car's front wheel(s) look?

- - - Updated - - -

Well. After doing an alignment on my car they had no problem adjusting it right even if my wheel sits a bit back

same here. Other than caster being off, there is nothing wrong with alignment.

[Chillax]

I'm wondering if this is part of my issue... I noticed that when the wheels stop the rest of the car travels forward slightly and it looks like the wheels are offset front to rear. Once off the brakes everything centers again... would never have notice if I wasn't standing outside the car looking as it rolled off the lift.

[Timm]

That would indicate very tired bushings - it's one of the quick tests used to determine their condition!

[8Tech]

+1.

The rubber bushes allow a controlled and damped (through the oil contained in the OEM bushes) movement, front to rear of the hub carrier (wheel) when braking. Very tired bushes can be felt through the steering as a jolt when tapping the brakes at low speed.
With no allowable movement in the upper arm bush, all shock loads will be transmitted directly through the steering and suspension components, giving a harsh feel, noise and additional stress on components, but with better steering response.
Having said that, this will still not change the wheel in arch position because the stock bush is concentric just like the spherical joint type balljoint.

[Chillax]

Good (sorta) means I will be nailing a more than one bird as I get the front end sorted.

[Dr. T]

To me it looks like a different/larger tire in the first and last pic and/or different offset adding to the observed rearward position. Did you switch to a larger width and diameter tire? Hubcentric rings added since 2008? Was the car lowered further?


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[clockwork]

To me it looks like a different/larger tire in the first and last pic and/or different offset adding to the observed rearward position. Did you switch to a larger width and diameter tire? Hubcentric rings added since 2008? Was the car lowered further?


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if you are asking me, the OP, the onlt things changed in suspension (from first and second photo, approx 8 years & 50k kms) were the Upper Control Arms to Wokke Sphericals and tie-rods too during the alignment. Tie-Rods were replaced with OE. No change in tire diameter.
Tie-Rods have been changed and

[clockwork]

Your problem isn't likely at the top of the strut at all, it is at the bottom end.
The wrong arms, even with upgraded bushings/bearings WILL change the geometry like this, it isn't just a "pull it in" effect, it will pull it back too.

So in the continued search to fit the wheel properly in the arch again (tho this may be a fools errand) and to fix the tire rubbing inside black plastic arch at rear, which problems plague both front wheels, i removed the right side wokke spherical UCA and compared it to a new BMW UCA fitted with an e34 ///M5 bushing, and botg wokke and BMW were exact same length and placement of hole in bushing.
So i reinstalled the Wokke UCA but decided to remove my aluminum bump steer plates. I reinstalled wheels and the car looked similar when lowered. Drove the csr and yep still rubbing issues at full lock and especially when turning and driving over a driveway sidewalk.
But do i need to get an alignment first before i write these sdjustments off as a failure? I know an alignment is needed when playing with suspension but id hate to get one now then see no difference, add the bump steer plates again and have to get another alignment.

The front tires are new Michelin Pilor Super Sport and even tho same spec size as previous tires maybe they have a wider tread pattern or more square shoulder then the Sumitomo HTR III that i had on...

[CDO5OO1A]

WRT alignment, there are two settings on the alignment machines for the Eight. Standard suspension and sport suspension.

Wheel well liner rubbing - I had a front liner that was not properly installed and the tire moved it further with the steering turned all the way then the air pushed it into the tire when driving and the tire wore a hole in it fast. So I learned that getting the liner all the way in (in the right place) with ALL the fasteners is something you can't get from the drawings. I had to go and look at one that was right at a wrenchfest then I realized that it hadn't been put in correctly or completely.

[Timm]

Which part of the tyre hits the liner - the inside edge or the outside edge?

[8eights]

OP: Not the alignment, Something else is loose or warn, Should never get that much play when braking or turning, And this wouldn't be a issue with so few cars, I have a E31 with 19" and another with 20" inch wheels and never touch anything under the car.

[clockwork]

Which part of the tyre hits the liner - the inside edge or the outside edge?

outside edge and left side badly rubs.
I have always run 15mm spacers but i could remove them to see.
when I removed the bump steer plates things didnt rub so bad, but I just put them back on and bad rubbage.
LCAs look perfect and wokke UCAs are not causing an issue either. Tie Rods were new when wheel alignment was done a few kms ago.
i`m gonna throw factory 16`s on and see.
the sound is sooooo embarrassing when turning. I dont even care about getting wheels back to symetrical within the arch, just stop the rubbing is the priority.