Rediculous e36 rotary valve engine project

[garretvs]

Very nice effort on your project!

Less complex than sleeve-valve engines (Napier Sabre 24-cylinder "H" engine) and doable by
a handy DIY. Cheers

[66 6]

Nucking Futs!
That thing is bad ass!

[pizzaman09]

Very nice effort on your project!

Less complex than sleeve-valve engines (Napier Sabre 24-cylinder "H" engine) and doable by
a handy DIY. Cheers

Thanks!
Sleeve valve engines are insane. Very cool but absolutely insane. A sleeve valve conversion would be darn near impossible, an engine really has to be designed with them in mind from the ground up.

[328iJunkie]

Shoot me a message if you want help tuning it .
Also it's running mega rich because injectors are batch firing because of angry cam signal....

[ChinoBMW]

Holy cow

[JEC928]

This is the bestest crazy thing I have seen on this forum. Truly, amazeballs x 9000.

[Mike WW]

I love quirky stuff and that is definitely quirky, but functionable. My complements.

[paimei]

This project is awesome and a credit to you. what is the end game here, do you a have HP goal in mind if that even matters to you or will you be happy with whatever you get ?

[pizzaman09]

I should have checked this thread. Have been crazy busy with selling my e39 M5 and shopping for a replacement car.

Shoot me a message if you want help tuning it .
Also it's running mega rich because injectors are batch firing because of angry cam signal....

I am definitely in need of some tuning eventually. The first order of business though is to implement the oil pressure regulator we got for the valve oiling system. Now we will have constant 2psi oil pressure to a drip feed system as opposed to a variable 10 to 60 psi input. Also we are working on improving our intake plenum, the epoxy we used on the carbon fiber got hot in testing and the vacuum partially imploded the box.

We plan on dynoing it on a stock tune to see what we did, then take it to a well known BMW tuner down in Pittsburgh to actually tune it right.

Do you suppose there is a way to turn off the signal from the cam position sensor and let the engine know it no longer has vanos?

This is the bestest crazy thing I have seen on this forum. Truly, amazeballs x 9000.

This very well might be my favorite quote ever.

I love quirky stuff and that is definitely quirky, but functionable. My complements.

Thanks! Quirky is definitely part of it. Practicality was not part of the equation but we hope to make it quite daily drivable.

This project is awesome and a credit to you. what is the end game here, do you a have HP goal in mind if that even matters to you or will you be happy with whatever you get ?

Thanks! The end game is mostly just to see if we could do it on a production car. However our goal is increased power, our goal is to hit 240 horsepower at the wheels with the 2.8L block. The butt dyno is telling us that we have definitely increased power over 3k rpm. Efficiency is not a goal but a curiosity, in theory our pumping losses are much lower, not certain about timing drive parasitic losses though.
With any luck we can sell it for some big money too.

- - - Updated - - -

A quick run with the exhaust hooked up. Amazingly I think it is quieter than the stock setup.

[328iJunkie]

I should have checked this thread. Have been crazy busy with selling my e39 M5 and shopping for a replacement car.



I am definitely in need of some tuning eventually. The first order of business though is to implement the oil pressure regulator we got for the valve oiling system. Now we will have constant 2psi oil pressure to a drip feed system as opposed to a variable 10 to 60 psi input. Also we are working on improving our intake plenum, the epoxy we used on the carbon fiber got hot in testing and the vacuum partially imploded the box.

We plan on dynoing it on a stock tune to see what we did, then take it to a well known BMW tuner down in Pittsburgh to actually tune it right.

Do you suppose there is a way to turn off the signal from the cam position sensor and let the engine know it no longer has vanos?

What known tuner is in Pittsburg? Without the cam sensor shut off fueling will be extremely inconsistent. And yes there is a way to properly turn it off, but you are better off for power/drivability, figuring out a way to emulate the cam signal.

[Pavlo]

This is awesome! One of the coolest BMW projects I've ever seen!

The cam trigger should be fairly simple (on the scale of this whole project). Dave, do you know what kind of signal the e30 inductive pickup outputs versus the MS41 cam trigger?

[328iJunkie]

The M42 cam sensor? or M20 crank? MS41 cam signal is just high low like most OEs do it. It then compares when the high/low transition point is in relation to the crank signal.

[doktor b]

nuts doesn't even begin to describe this.
this is a build based on a deep-seeded madness.
please carry on.

[pizzaman09]

The most recent progress on the build has uncovered some slop in the drive for the valve train that is causing random changes in timing of about 40 degrees on the valves. This is causing us a bunch of issue so we are working towards pinning the source of slop to eliminate it. As we have found time and time again, valve timing is critical, as soon as something skips or something comes loose, all bets are off for a good run.

Oil burning has been drastically cut down with the incorporation of a pressure regulator and the installation of a needle valve to meter flow to each valve.

What known tuner is in Pittsburg? Without the cam sensor shut off fueling will be extremely inconsistent. And yes there is a way to properly turn it off, but you are better off for power/drivability, figuring out a way to emulate the cam signal.

I have had many people suggest TPG in Pittsburgh for tuning BMWs. It is only a two hour drive south of me and they are by far the closest place to me that does dyno tuning.

I do have a way to emulate the cam signal, I have an exact model of the original trigger wheel bolted to the drive for the valves. It spins cam shaft speed but I can't seem to find the correct rotational alignment to make it happy, I haven't messed with it much recently admittedly, will get to that. I have recently plugged the original Vanos solenoid in and that got rid of my open circuit Vanos code. Now I only have a cam shaft postion code to deal with and all codes will be gone.
Thank you for the suggestion!

nuts doesn't even begin to describe this.
this is a build based on a deep-seeded madness.
please carry on.

I take this as a very sincere compliment.

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Updated video of the car driving. The higher revs occur about 1:25 into the video.

[pizzaman09]

Update to the project.
It turns out the engine runs better without a throttle body, just straight open ports with fuel control for the throttle. Our intake system has so many vacuum leaks that we are having trouble making it run well at low rpm. Somehow the bracket that holds the PCV got bent and it keeps coming unplugged.

Near the end of the video there are some pretty impressive accelerations. Earlier in the video you will see us using duct tape as a crude single position throttle body.

[328iJunkie]

The most recent progress on the build has uncovered some slop in the drive for the valve train that is causing random changes in timing of about 40 degrees on the valves. This is causing us a bunch of issue so we are working towards pinning the source of slop to eliminate it. As we have found time and time again, valve timing is critical, as soon as something skips or something comes loose, all bets are off for a good run.

Oil burning has been drastically cut down with the incorporation of a pressure regulator and the installation of a needle valve to meter flow to each valve.



I have had many people suggest TPG in Pittsburgh for tuning BMWs. It is only a two hour drive south of me and they are by far the closest place to me that does dyno tuning.

I do have a way to emulate the cam signal, I have an exact model of the original trigger wheel bolted to the drive for the valves. It spins cam shaft speed but I can't seem to find the correct rotational alignment to make it happy, I haven't messed with it much recently admittedly, will get to that. I have recently plugged the original Vanos solenoid in and that got rid of my open circuit Vanos code. Now I only have a cam shaft postion code to deal with and all codes will be gone.
Thank you for the suggestion!


I take this as a very sincere compliment.

- - - Updated - - -

Updated video of the car driving. The higher revs occur about 1:25 into the video.

keep in mind when cam sensor is mad fueling is batch fired which makes idle/low rpm/part throttle annoying...

[pizzaman09]

keep in mind when cam sensor is mad fueling is batch fired which makes idle/low rpm/part throttle annoying...

Thanks for the input.


We have found that the majority of our problems actually have stemmed from vacuum leaks. Our PCV had fallen off of the intake and a few of our rotary shaft seals were not seated well in their holders. We are working through some difficulties in stalling a new CPS right now so hopefully by the end of this weekend I can have a positive update with it idling smoothly with an intake.

[atlantisvip]

We liked driving the 328is so much before we tore it apart that it has convinced us to sell our e39 M5.



Seriously speechless.. That has got to be the first time anyone has said such a thing.


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[pizzaman09]

We liked driving the 328is so much before we tore it apart that it has convinced us to sell our e39 M5.

Seriously speechless.. That has got to be the first time anyone has said such a thing.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

We had our fun with the e39 M5. It was a great car, there is a lot going for it. However it is kind of boring to driving on normal roads because it is so effortless. There was never a need to downshift for hills or even slow traffic, just leave it in overdrive until you are down to 20 mph. The e36 is a car that makes you drive, it is nimble and feels small around you. Just enough power to be quick but not enough to get you into serious trouble in a short distance. I also prefer the styling of the e36 over the e39, it is sharper and edgier.
Yet when all was said and done, we ended up replacing the M5 with a 2013 Mini JCW with no back seats and almost all of the GP upgrades. If we hadn't found this exact Mini, we would have purchased an e36 M3.

[geargrinder]

Just followed link in SpyderTards fiascothread... ZOMG how did I miss this. Totally donkrickulouz. Love it.

[ultimatetester]

Just followed link in SpyderTards fiascothread... ZOMG how did I miss this. Totally donkrickulouz. Love it.

Why are you replying to this thread about something from spydergod? Pls pay some respect to the forum and individual, even if you think someone else's project is "donkrickulouz"

[geargrinder]

...

[geargrinder]

Sending PM cuz didn't mean to drag things Off-topic. Just meant to say super cool project and then get subscribed so I could see updates.

[spyderg0d]

My time to shine!!! Whutsup guys! Crashin the pony parade with some home made dyno numbers! I rigged up some heavy garbage can with rope to my bumper, then i did some third gear pulls with my inpa program on. I got this uber cool programmer to make up variables (like most other dyno companies do) and throw em in the equation. Makin about 220hp and 300wtq, my trash curve, i mean ziplock curve is double fresh locked in at a smelly descwntly progressive rate. I didnt even have to spend 10k on it and standstill race.. Lololol. Just kidding guys. Your my greatest fans! And i love you all. #cool rotary valve engine dude!


Just wondering tho, why fid you choose belt drive over chain or gear? Im obviously not up to date on the intricates of what youve done, but, it does spark my un-ending ever at public opinion interest.

[FiberFast]

That's awesome! If you get bored and want to build something else, I designed this variable valve lift and timing system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN6kxm_5d5s
This Could be setup with only one rocker arm per valve, and would push directly on the lash cap. Modify the cylinder head so the two shafts with all the rockers will fit in the head.
You can toss the throttle body and use a hydraulic accelerator pedal to run a vanos style helical gear with a swing arm for the shafts. The accelerator pedal will then be directly connected to the valves lift. As the Rocker shafts rotate about the cam to provide more lift it also advances/retards the timing. Total timing variance in the video shown was 16 Degrees, Lift was between 0.155" & and 0.55".
You would need to mill the cam trays out and make a bolt in cam tray assembly with the rocker shaft ways cut through them. You could mount the cams higher in the custom tray and get the clearance needed for the rocker. The rocker shown adds only 0.75" of height to the valve train. The rocker must have a radiused face equal to its distance from the center of the cam, the rocker shaft must also have a radiused path or way that moves about the central axis of the cam. In this way, when the rocker shafts are moved about the axis of the cam, the timing is advanced/retarded. As the timing is advanced/retarded due to a change in the rockers interface location with the cam lobes, the shoe of the rocker is dragged over the lifter/Lashcap exposing it to more of the sweep/lift from the rocker arm. The Easiest way to think about this is like a triangle, the distance between the two vectors on the angle change relative to the measured distance from the origin.