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Thread: Rediculous e36 rotary valve engine project

  1. #76
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    The newest video upload. The number on the digital gage is air fuel ratio, as you can tell, it runs lean.
    We just found out about RomRaider for the MS41 ECU so we have ordered the necessary cable and downloaded the software. We are quite excited to have the capability to tune the ECU and fix all of the fueling issues we are having as well as turn off the VANOS controls.


    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Go GO PIZZAMAN!

    Hope you make a kit publicly available per say, might have some use on certain tracks
    A kit publicly available is unlikely, however the car most certainly will be at some point.
    Current fleet:
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    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
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  2. #77
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    Famous Bill Murray quote applies here:

    "I wanna party with THIS guy!"

    i get crap about throwing ideas against the wall on improving the S52 to S50B32 performance... I do things for me, not for anyone else.

    " We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. " another famous quote you may know...

    anyway, carry on! I had a different image in mind for a rotary valve than what you made but I like it. I was also thinking of ways to vary the valve timing (like vanos) for application to your design. That should widen (or flatten) your power peak you seem to have. In the old days you had to static time the cam... pick where your power peak was based on gearing and intended use. You noted your timing gaps for the "cam" are ten degrees I think it was? Can you use an offset key like we did to "degree in" a cam? Not sure McMaster has those. I think I got mine from Mancini Racing before the internet existed...
    "Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

    PM me for E36 engine swap books and BMW ETMs! NOW SHIPPING!!!

  3. #78
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    At a first quick glance I just saw rotary, came in here, heard the videos... Something seemed a little off. I read more, saw the engine... And now I'm blown away and I can't stop listening to it idle. Well done! Holy Sh**
    Instagram: Jaws.garage
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiMASTER View Post
    Famous Bill Murray quote applies here:

    "I wanna party with THIS guy!"

    i get crap about throwing ideas against the wall on improving the S52 to S50B32 performance... I do things for me, not for anyone else.

    " We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. " another famous quote you may know...

    anyway, carry on! I had a different image in mind for a rotary valve than what you made but I like it. I was also thinking of ways to vary the valve timing (like vanos) for application to your design. That should widen (or flatten) your power peak you seem to have. In the old days you had to static time the cam... pick where your power peak was based on gearing and intended use. You noted your timing gaps for the "cam" are ten degrees I think it was? Can you use an offset key like we did to "degree in" a cam? Not sure McMaster has those. I think I got mine from Mancini Racing before the internet existed...
    Thanks! I appreciate the quotes. In terms of timing, yes, we only have control of timing in 10 degree increments because we have 36 tooth pulleys. We can time each valve relative to each other in 10 degree increments and we can time the overall valve train to the engine in 10 degree valve increments which are 20 degree crank angle changes.

    We think that the peaks and dips in power are a result of fueling. Our AFR is super off most of the time, usually it is way lean. We intend on fixing this soon as soon as a programmer cable arrives in the mail to start playing with RomRaider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
    At a first quick glance I just saw rotary, came in here, heard the videos... Something seemed a little off. I read more, saw the engine... And now I'm blown away and I can't stop listening to it idle. Well done! Holy Sh**
    Thanks. Yeah, people don't quite grasp the first time around that this is a rotary valve engine, not a rotary engine. It is a good conversation starter for sure.
    Last edited by pizzaman09; 07-07-2017 at 05:13 PM.
    Current fleet:
    1999 BMW e36 M3
    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
    1962 Austin Healey Sprite

  5. #80
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    Been a while since I had an update to this thread. My brother and I have been working hard at making some big improvements to the design. First we have converted the unreliable belt drive of the rotary valve to nice heavy #40 roller chain. In the process of this conversion, we also pinned the valves so they are all timed exactly relative to eachother rather than +/- 7 degrees, which is very important. We ported all the valves so that they flow the same and ported the exhaust headers which were quite restrictive in the grand scheme of our flow path. A stand alone wideband o2 sensor and gage has been welded to the exhaust and we made big changes to the cooling system. We upgraded to 30lb injectors and are working on the new fuel tables using rom raider.

    The video below shows the engine running with just fuel control, no throttle body. Once we finish buttoning up the cooling system we will reinstall our intake and see how we have done. So far this are looking super promising for some big performance improvements.
    Last edited by pizzaman09; 12-03-2017 at 09:49 PM.

  6. #81
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    I love seeing updates on this thread. Cool stuff.
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  7. #82
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    Can the mods please move this to thread to the porn section. Dear god <3

  8. #83
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    Well it had a slight setback yesterday, timing of the valves was too advanced and it backfired enough fuel out of the open intake to catch the engine significantly on fire. I used an extinguisher on it and am now cleaning up all the dry chemicals. Will probably get it all back together by tomorrow.

    We found out that our cooling system issues revolve around not having a flow path bypassing the thermostat when cold, I removed the thermostat and now it looks like flow may actually be successful.

  9. #84
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    I believe you will overheat without a T-Stat to slow the flow of coolant thru the radiator.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #85
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    Hopefully the engine is still okay after the fire and the damage isn't too significance. Awesome car and one of the craziest builds I've ever seen! Good luck!

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluptgm3 View Post
    I believe you will overheat without a T-Stat to slow the flow of coolant thru the radiator.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The coolant flow is so modified that it really doesn't operate as an original M52 cooling system at this point. The thermostat is currently preventing 100% of the coolant from circulating thru the engine so it's removal is necessary for any flow. This is due to us not having a single clue when we designed the engine as to how the cooling was supposed to circulate. We tried a lot of things and most of them ended in large amounts of coolant overflowing out of the expansion tank as we eventually realized that it was the only place for coolant to flow after it went thru the engine until the thermostat opened.

    Quote Originally Posted by finsky View Post
    Hopefully the engine is still okay after the fire and the damage isn't too significance. Awesome car and one of the craziest builds I've ever seen! Good luck!
    The damage was super minimal, mostly we are trying to clean it up well from the extinguisher dust which might be adversly abrasive. I basically sprayed a dry chemical extinguisher into the intake of all 6 cylinders since that is where the fire was originating from.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluptgm3 View Post
    I believe you will overheat without a T-Stat to slow the flow of coolant thru the radiator.
    That's not how it works. Thermostats in an engine keep the temperature up, not down. You'll run cold with no thermostat.

  13. #88
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    Rediculous e36 rotary valve engine project

    Quote Originally Posted by boarder2k7 View Post
    That's not how it works. Thermostats in an engine keep the temperature up, not down. You'll run cold with no thermostat.
    Yes, right up till it overheats due to coolant not remaining in radiator long enough to cool.


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    Last edited by bluptgm3; 12-10-2017 at 07:36 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by boarder2k7 View Post
    That's not how it works. Thermostats in an engine keep the temperature up, not down. You'll run cold with no thermostat.
    I'm so happy that you said that and I didn't have to...

    But as far as the thread at hand. Wondering more about how accurate and in control your valve setup is? Is it possible you have a timeing slip?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by boarder2k7 View Post
    That's not how it works. Thermostats in an engine keep the temperature up, not down. You'll run cold with no thermostat.
    I'm so happy that you said that and I didn't have to...

    But as far as the thread at hand. Wondering more about how accurate and in control your valve setup is? Is it possible you have a timeing slip?
    Nobody would recertify these machines after somebody screwed with them without any visibility into what they did.

    HONK! HONK! Clown car coming through!

    -Oakdizzle

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluptgm3 View Post
    I believe you will overheat without a T-Stat to slow the flow of coolant thru the radiator.
    Quote Originally Posted by boarder2k7 View Post
    That's not how it works. Thermostats in an engine keep the temperature up, not down. You'll run cold with no thermostat.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluptgm3 View Post
    Yes, right up till it overheats due to coolant not remaining in radiator long enough to cool.
    Each of you is 50% correct about the thermostat. The purpose of thermostat is not to just keep the engine from running cold or running hot. It's purpose is to keep engine at designed operating temperature, not just one or the other.

    Also, as OP mentioned the cooling system and the flow has been havily modified, so the thermostat functionality now seems far from it's intended spec.
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    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimerok View Post
    Each of you is 50% correct about the thermostat. The purpose of thermostat is not to just keep the engine from running cold or running hot. It's purpose is to keep engine at designed operating temperature, not just one or the other.
    Glass half empty, glass half full, glass with a rotary valve swap


  17. #92
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    The radiator and coolant volume must be OVERSIZED to accommodate the possibility for HOT environments. (Maximum)The thermostat is to disrupt the oversized coolant system from over cooling the engine, and to achieve a standard engine temp.(minimum) A thermostat keeps heat in, not allow heat to escape. A radiator will expel more heat with more flow through it rather than cyclic cooling( like the thermostat does). This is proven on any car ran without a thermostat. They don't overheat. They run cooler. Its proven and common knowledge.
    Nobody would recertify these machines after somebody screwed with them without any visibility into what they did.

    HONK! HONK! Clown car coming through!

    -Oakdizzle

  18. #93
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    Rediculous e36 rotary valve engine project

    Quote Originally Posted by spyderg0d View Post
    The radiator and coolant volume must be OVERSIZED to accommodate the possibility for HOT environments. (Maximum)The thermostat is to disrupt the oversized coolant system from over cooling the engine, and to achieve a standard engine temp.(minimum) A thermostat keeps heat in, not allow heat to escape. A radiator will expel more heat with more flow through it rather than cyclic cooling( like the thermostat does). This is proven on any car ran without a thermostat. They don't overheat. They run cooler. Its proven and common knowledge.
    Climb a long grade and stop in traffic at or near the top.
    The generated heat load and the sudden lack of air flow will most likely cause an over heat with a wide open t-stat house (no T-stat).
    At least that has been my experience.


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    Last edited by bluptgm3; 12-12-2017 at 09:34 AM.

  19. #94
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    Not with a non faulty water pump, air pocketless coolant system, and working mechanical and accessory fan you didn't. The accessory fan is designed for that EXACT scenario. As long as they work (air through) and the coolant flow through the radiator is sufficient (set by the water pump) and its not above 150 degrees or so outside,,, your car should never overheat with or without a thermostat.
    Nobody would recertify these machines after somebody screwed with them without any visibility into what they did.

    HONK! HONK! Clown car coming through!

    -Oakdizzle

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderg0d View Post
    I'm so happy that you said that and I didn't have to...

    But as far as the thread at hand. Wondering more about how accurate and in control your valve setup is? Is it possible you have a timeing slip?

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm so happy that you said that and I didn't have to...

    But as far as the thread at hand. Wondering more about how accurate and in control your valve setup is? Is it possible you have a timeing slip?
    Actually we finally have all parts of the valve timing pinned so they can not slip. Relative timing between cylinders is within a degree of eachother, barring any chain stretch. With the updated timing setup it really does run much better.

    Currently we are awaiting glue to dry on our intake we will probably be able to test how well it all runs on Christmas day. That is when we aim to reassemble it, correct any overall timing issues and fire her up and see what happens.

  21. #96
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    Update: The engine has been fully put back together and it runs! We had some trouble with a poorly placed coolant level temp sensor, it was on a blocked off coolant line so was reading outside air temperatures which are in the single digits Fahrenheit right now. With the coolant temp sensor moved to an actual coolant line the engine now starts every time as the fuel tables are closer to correct for the temp of the engine. It blows heat out of the heater and it doesn't stall every 5 seconds, it actually idles rather well.

    As you will see in the video, the car doesn't have snow tires on it. They were not doing well on the slight grade of my driveway. We have been getting a lot of snow in Erie lately so not ideal for testing the car.


    While running it we had a coolant line blow near the heater core, we are going to investigate soon.

    It definitely needs to be tuned. We have yet to plug the new wideband O2 sensor in, we had a bung welded into a header so we can now get an accurate reading.
    Current fleet:
    1999 BMW e36 M3
    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
    1962 Austin Healey Sprite

  22. #97
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    Update again. Just a random driving video set. Finally starting to tune for air fuel ratio.

  23. #98
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    It has been a while since I posted an update to this project. The video is a bit lengthy, it goes into depth of the details of what is happening with the engine and how it is running today.

    If you want to skip straight to where it is running, go to 17:35.

    Current fleet:
    1999 BMW e36 M3
    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
    1962 Austin Healey Sprite

  24. #99
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    The exciting part of this project is now scheduled! We have the engine running very well and not leaking too many fluids. So it's time to Dyno the rotary valve! We have a day scheduled at a local shop that is going to let us dyno tune the car for a day. It's the same shop that we had the car dynoed in 100% stock form so we will be able to overlay the plots.

  25. #100
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    When is the dyno day? The last video showing all the issues you've sorted out was nice. I'm shocked this project hasn't gotten more attention already.


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