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Thread: Return of an Original Gangsta

  1. #101
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    Was just looking for some yesterday myself...

    I bought kits from Pelican and will do my own - I've done it before more messy then hard to do.

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    Like what you are doing with the front end - what will you do for wheel well panels? Or will you just let the rocks fly? LOL

    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
    few updates; still working on the front. Probably finish the main tie ins from the front towers to the frame rail next weekend, I kinda just stopped early today. Modded the harbor freight pipe bender for tubing. Works great on some test tubes no kinks. One thing for sure the front will be light.


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    Looking familiar. I kind of wish I would have left my frame rails all the way up like that.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by audioscience10 View Post
    Looking familiar. I kind of wish I would have left my frame rails all the way up like that.
    Front full tubed out? Any pics?



    Old Man
    All I see are boot kits. I want new CV's since the are originals pretty wore out. I did the boots and grease the last 15yrs ago. I may be forced to tear these apart and see but a quick diagnosis they feel terrible.

    Anybody know of another any other model CV's or whole halfshafts that fit? I don't even mind if have to drill out larger holes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    Like what you are doing with the front end - what will you do for wheel well panels? Or will you just let the rocks fly? LOL
    I may come up with something, but only thing I'll be concerned about is the radiator. May just put flaps on the sides of the rad keep those pesky rocks away.
    88 M3
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    91 318i
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    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  4. #104
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    I've got a set of halfshafts if you'd be interested in some cheap spares.

  5. #105
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    Wasn't even planning on doing anything last night, just chillin in the garage. Then this happened. Cut these tie ins out of more 1" moly and 1/8 square gussets to the main front suspension tie point I made last week. Welded partially in the dark at 8pm. Not too bad looking it over this evening for not being able to see. I should of waited but will clean them up a little. Was just to antsy.

    DSC06609.jpg
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    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  6. #106
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    What sway bar are you going to run?

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    Either I way over built - (never done that before - LOL) Or I feel you will have issues with frame flex up front?

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    Also was wondering about attaching the front fenders to the body?

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    Not saying your doing wrong - well you aren't doing it the way I did so.....

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    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  7. #107
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    No worries and believe me I'm trying real hard not to overbuild. Trying to keep ltw focused.

    There will be 1 or two more structure gauge cross bars top front. Probably one to join when bolt on a front tube structure (lighter maybe conduit support rad core, lights, grill) and another may be welded in rear of the towers making a front strut bar. Those two will have to wait until I see a mock up motor hanging in there. We may get to cut the firewall and push it back a few inches. I really want to get somewhere close to front subframe and strut tower are at least between cylinders 1&2. If can go further having cylinder one ie oil cap inline with a tower would be ideal.
    Fenders will literally get whatever minimal they need to attach besides bolting to whats left. A strip of 1/2 square maybe but that's later down the road.

    Swaybars may be a left over set from the M3 since they are sitting here. If not then an extra order from speedway to buy a torsion bar setup.

    Today honestly we plan to start tackling the frame flex issue actually. Should call them frame flex fixers, or anti flex flyer bars But muscle car guys will say hey subframe connectors. I'm not sure how it will turn out yet, but my old school thoughts were always wanting to make rails for these cars. BMW's could use subframe connectors IMO and I've not seen many done. Following my Dad's input from muscle drag days we've talked about it and wanted to implement rails. Every car I see that has a ton of cage grabs a lot of points that could be connected via rail. I plan on the 4pt just having additional tie in to the top of the subframe pins. My last thoughts are when the seat mounts go in they will be cross bars that tie the tunnel and outer lower door (bmw rail).

    Interesting side note is when working on the M3. The later evo models had bars that ran in the rear of the tunnel. I never noticed or knew this before but picked up on it. Cage pics always showed cross bars there on top sometimes tie into to top of the tunnel there. The pivot point of the chassis during rotation is around that point. So I made a hefty custom 3/4 moly tube tunnel brace for it. The brace weighed 8 lbs but is a critical spot and low in the chassis. I'm not a pro builder by any means I just try to implement what I see and makes sense to me.


    Eh enough early morning coffee; time to sneak around outside while the lady is still asleep.
    Last edited by autox320; 09-16-2016 at 06:39 AM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
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    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    What sway bar are you going to run?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Either I way over built - (never done that before - LOL) Or I feel you will have issues with frame flex up front?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also was wondering about attaching the front fenders to the body?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not saying your doing wrong - well you aren't doing it the way I did so.....

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    I don't think yours is over built, but I don't notice any flexing in mine.

    Attaching the fenders you should still have 2 of the stock screw holes and that is all I am using.

    Since you asked for pics and I never sent them.




    My front end has tubes on the frame rails that it slides into and it bolts to the towers. Being able to remove it makes pulling the motor really easy.

  9. #109
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    Thanks Nic, yeah I scoped out your build. I've notes and pics from drift cars since the guys seem to have no limit making it happen Good work using a modern front suspension.

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    1" square tubing subframe connectors
    my sub rails were trashed, they are just cheapo stamped steel anyways, so wheeled off
    will try to box them with 1/8" plate into the front rails tomorrow, then tackle the rear tie ins
    didn't I say again I hate welding sheet metal? yeah the floor pans are scary thin so glad I'm doing this

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    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  10. #110
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    Front is boxed in and made new sub rails with 1/8" plate. Just threw some plate in my CHC machine as in completely hand cut. Was a bit more job than I planned on just due to the frame of the car metal is old. The rails left from trimming were in excellent shape though. Thin pans especially on the driver side floor pan where rusting. I tried to burn off the areas to weld with a torch to keep stuff from messing me up too bad on the backside. It help some cause I used less beer and less choice words to the bmw gods.

    The top of each factory rail is just a tab of sheet so I laid on top a piece of 1" angle to seam it up without holes. The factory has two big giant holes each side just filled with sealer. Once burned and scrapped off that sealer I figured to go ahead and patch that up too.

    The front end is solid already, and way more than I ran before.

    Well maybe do some finishing up on the rear to tie into the subframe. I plan to make it bolt to it so can remove the subframe. Gas tank also on the main side since that's all we'll have. The other side will probably be used for exhaust side exit. Mine use to side exit below the passenger gas tank but ground clearance was an issue and there is the shielding to run that safely.


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    Last edited by autox320; 09-17-2016 at 08:23 PM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  11. #111
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    Few more. This job made me get some overhead weld practice in doing the underside. I didn't want to keep rotating the whole thing cause I was doing it quite a few times already. Once in weld mode I limited movement.

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    Last edited by autox320; 09-17-2016 at 07:42 PM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  12. #112
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    Looking Good!

    Welding this old thin sheet metal can be challenging!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

    Interesting !

    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  13. #113
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    Thanks Daryl, it was a good days work finishing up the front of these. In the end now I'm really glad we chose to do these. The front sub rails were bothering me. Now when the seat braces and cage go in can make small gussets and ties to these rails.
    Last edited by autox320; 09-17-2016 at 08:37 PM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  14. #114
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    Finally tied into the rear subframe; also holds the fuel tank in place.

    I like how it all turned out.

    DSC06635.JPG
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    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  15. #115
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    HMMM - This makes me think of my raising the sub frames in my e21s up to fix rear suspension geometry when I lowered them. On the track car I have raised it about 20mm or so.

    So I am thinking your rear bolt in piece can be revised if you decide to do the same.

    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    HMMM - This makes me think of my raising the sub frames in my e21s up to fix rear suspension geometry when I lowered them. On the track car I have raised it about 20mm or so.

    So I am thinking your rear bolt in piece can be revised if you decide to do the same.

    I raised the rear subframe. Yes this corrects roll center in the rear suspension. Flipped the mounts and welded them on upside down. When mocked up this brings the mount tabs of the trail arms almost touching the underside body. I mocked up and thought of shaving the mounts further, but was happy with what I saw. Also makes replacing the fuel filler hose a pain. Will have to check rear full compression of a trail arm from crushing the fill hose. It's a common problem on the e30's also when doing this. Puts the driveshaft at the top of the tunnel. Not sure yet on shaft angle but hard to fix anything on the e21 diff level since it mounts on top of the subframe. On the e30 can space the diff down since it mounts underneath; just add spacers. So this will mess up my custom welded shortest shifter I run, but I've thought out a plan for that. Won't know exactly how it will work out till I get there.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  17. #117
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    I did not notice you had done this, COOL.

    With semi trailing arm rear suspension as with the E21 and E30 at ride height the half shafts need to still go down from the diff to the axles. If they do not you get bad things happening with the rear traction, one of which can be rear bad wheel hop. This is because the main thing going on is the rotational drive torque goes through the shafts wants to raise the trailing arms/wheels up.

    Something I did on my 80is when I changed the rear suspension over to 323 rears with disk brakes was cut the trailing arm mounts off the subframe. I had new ones cut and bent with slots so I could adjust rear toe and chamber But I raised these slots up more on top of the cross bar. So diff stays put but arm mounts are higher up in the car. Basically this is what they did with the Group 5 car back in the day.

    I am going to do the same for the track car (someday) but go much higher, which will require cuts out some of the rear floor and relocating brake line mounts to make room for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Which mounts did you flip upside down? Or what did you weld?

    I filled my subframe mounts with polyurethane and them machined 3/8" off the bottoms of them and mounted them upside down. Putting driver side pinch weld to mount bracket upside down on passenger side of car and passenger side bracket upside down on driver side of car.
    Last edited by OLD MAN; 09-19-2016 at 09:21 AM.

    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    I did not notice you had done this, COOL.

    With semi trailing arm rear suspension as with the E21 and E30 at ride height the half shafts need to still go down from the diff to the axles. If they do not you get bad things happening with the rear traction, one of which can be rear bad wheel hop. This is because the main thing going on is the rotational drive torque goes through the shafts wants to raise the trailing arms/wheels up.

    Something I did on my 80is when I changed the rear suspension over to 323 rears with disk brakes was cut the trailing arm mounts off the subframe. I had new ones cut and bent with slots so I could adjust rear toe and chamber But I raised these slots up more on top of the cross bar. So diff stays put but arm mounts are higher up in the car. Basically this is what they did with the Group 5 car back in the day.

    I am going to do the same for the track car (someday) but go much higher, which will require cuts out some of the rear floor and relocating brake line mounts to make room for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Which mounts did you flip upside down? Or what did you weld?

    I filled my subframe mounts with polyurethane and them machined 3/8" off the bottoms of them and mounted them upside down. Putting driver side pinch weld to mount bracket upside down on passenger side of car and passenger side bracket upside down on driver side of car.
    I had racetep steel mounts. The ears were bent and one pin was bent. I never liked the e21 bushings and how they bolt on. So oriented them how I wanted then welded up and made it all one piece on the subframe. Few posts back when first tackled the rear.

    I'm biased and against slotting unless I need to when checking my alignment. Too much potential for movement unless welded after getting exact adjustment. I've seen some fancy hold tie's with bolts and using sockets to keep alignment afterwards. Not my taste. I was completely against it when doing the M3. Ever had a trail arm bolt get loose and how it feels at high speed? I have and that's exactly what happens when the alignment gets loose or slips. It's a scary ride especially if toe goes to toe out in the rear at 140mph. I see IE has new toothed locking tabs that may be worth an update.
    88 M3
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    91 318i
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    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  19. #119
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    OK I completely missed this post - you are moving way too quickly for this old man!

    I understand about the bolts coming loose, I will have to look into locking pins or something when I think of the rework for the track car. And I will get some new crush style lock nuts for the 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
    tackling da junk in da trunk

    Few rounds of "Fight Club" (aka oven cleaner aka lye) and things look like they were first born. Definitely the easy beer drinker method of cleaning your car. I might just go buy some extra cans to do the underside of the car when ready. I found the cheapo brand no name stuff works better than easy off Set your open beer in another place when spraying.

    Fixing the bendy/flexy subframe mounts but let me back up. My mounts were bolted under the subframe lip and driver side was bent along with the bolt/pin. It could be how they were bolted underneath, but not sure about that. I had to take out the mount pins and straighten the bent one with a BFH on the vise. The other was pool cue perfect when rolled. Now both were true. Needless to say beer started early this morning. The subframe mount I straightened also by tweaking in the vise till eyeball straight. Then I could finally mock up the rear parts together. Welded in a new rear diff support using all 11ga material. I saw how the original brace tied into the fender well. So notched the top rail till I could make mine go end to end. Welded it in place then capped it top and bottom with angle pieces to the rail. Mocked up parts again. Did this a few times then made the subframe mounts welded on once satisfied. Seamed up the under side of the subframe where the factory stopped. One thing I learned is to always save your metal scraps unless they are dust or shards. Never know what you'll need to fill a hole or gaps. I used cut scraps from the 1" angle to enforce the subframe mounts on the underside. Had to use another piece to fill a extra hole on the driver frame rail.

    Old BMP? urethane trail arm bushes. Made them melty and drifted them out. I've some nice delrin ones from the last e30 that are still good to replace with.


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    Always FUN TO DRIVE - Build Thread & Tech info - 79 320/6 track car build thread -- Videos of track car -Adam in car Auto-x video - Start-up video - 4/2011 Adam's TOP BMW time San Diego BMWCCA - 4-5-15 Dyno break-in run new M20B25 - Exhaust Thread - Link

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    OK I completely missed this post - you are moving way too quickly for this old man!

    I understand about the bolts coming loose, I will have to look into locking pins or something when I think of the rework for the track car. And I will get some new crush style lock nuts for the 80.
    Yeah jolting the drivetrain launching and on off throttle will show weak points. The ears of the metal mounts showed stress mainly due to how thick the flange is when bolted and the little bolts holding it. I couldn't imagine using a powertrain with more torque output using the same bolted setup.

    Critical areas I like all metal lock nuts. I'll sidetrack a sec on those. They are a must for headers btw. Got tired of the bmw copper crap for that application. Completely inadequate. All metal locks for the win. The M10 we found this out when started running it. Later when built the S14 I thought nah I'll use factory cause it's fresh. Well wasn't even a few weeks and lost the first nut, then after a track event 2 entire studs went missing. The S14 is notorious for this being a buzz bomb. So few hours on my back under large tube evo headers cussing the gods pulled all the studs cleaned re-installed with metal lock nuts. It's been several track events later they are still tight and all there.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  21. #121
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    Just some makers and ginger brew conjuring up the final front plan. Well part of it anyways. Might have to measure twice and cut three times. I need to at least mock something up resembling the new subframe before I can mock up drivetrain parts. Especially the motor placement. I've a stripped m10 block; as my coffee table upstairs actually, a spare empty head, etc to use as a mock up. This is where the fun begins and probably way more cutting involved with my evil friend mr. sheet weld after. I'd say this is the most critical part of this whole build. It will be the make or break the final product.

    The party has begun
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    You guys didn't really think I was going to use the factory subframe did ya? We'll see if this works.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  22. #122
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    Hmm just measuring and thinking. I should get a better idea tomorrow when some mock up parts are due in, but there's a chance I might have to ditch the wheels. It might be close but possibly going to need less backspacing. I'll know when mock up with my steering joint especially.

    So while I sip garage champagne over it, what do you guys think these are worth if had to sell them? Just a forethought on planning/measuring.
    real original bbs 15x7 all four
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    Maybe can make work with a 5mm spacer and some wheel studs. Meh just have to wait for parts; come on tomorrow hurry up.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  23. #123
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    Stealing the seating area coffee table back as a mock up motor. It has IE 10.5:1 pistons for a 2.0L build with 1.8i head that never happened. I did think of building this car a few times over the years. Ah we've not used it since sold my M3 seats I had for sitting at it. Plan later is to use the E21 recaros recovered for a new seating area. Can ya tell my niece likes to play with the M3 pretending she's racing it. Her doll wouldn't fit past the door bar so she just removed the windshield

    Anyways here's some parts planning to use. A 1984 318i upper pan (windage) with S14 lower pan, Turner vertical baffle with tap door, Massivebrakes.com (Lee) full horizontal baffle. I've about three things going on at once today and now the other parts needed for critical spacing won't be here till Saturday so will have to wait for finalize welding of a resemblance mock subframe.

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    Last edited by autox320; 09-23-2016 at 09:58 AM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
    Hmm just measuring and thinking. I should get a better idea tomorrow when some mock up parts are due in, but there's a chance I might have to ditch the wheels. It might be close but possibly going to need less backspacing. I'll know when mock up with my steering joint especially.

    So while I sip garage champagne over it, what do you guys think these are worth if had to sell them? Just a forethought on planning/measuring.
    real original bbs 15x7 all four
    DSC06643.JPG
    DSC06645.JPG
    DSC06647.JPG

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    Maybe can make work with a 5mm spacer and some wheel studs. Meh just have to wait for parts; come on tomorrow hurry up.
    Hopefully not as much as I think, I like them hahaha. Bbs like that tend to go around $300-600 around here
    -John

  25. #125
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    E30M3,318is,318i,E21320
    Let's face it the front end geometry of the E21 sucks balls. If lowered too much your control arms are contacting the subframe. These cars share a lot of the same problems of the Datsun 510 having very similar setup. There are ways to fix this and it's a bandaid. Most will try to swap in a modern suspension like from a e30 or forward to get better geometry. Well let's try something else, like scrapping the entire subframe.

    Finally progress. Measuring, drawing out, calculating, test fitting. I even messed up a whole piece the first attempt. This is version 2 already . The first piece was jigged up on the plate steel but not enough tacks or clamps. The ends moved way out from square once welded the miter joints. It was too far gone IMO. I wanted the lower joint to have a miter since it's a critical joint area without a gusset and close to the hole for mounting the control arm. This type of angle joint is typically 30% stronger. With a 1" piece it gives just over 3/8" of extra weld seam area. You put a lot of heat with a mig setup and why they say use tig. Well I don't have a tig setup so making due with it and compensating. Makes ya pull your hair out with excess heat travel, which makes things move ridiculous. But once know how things react can do some pretty cool stuff. We later cut the mess up piece for the angle gussets and steering rack piece.

    So the second version I went overboard on clamps and tacks to keep it from moving. It worked much better. The end result was using .005" shims temporarily between the rail angle I made before welding them up. Also strategically welded areas waiting for it to completely cool in between. Also kept checking our measurements to see it still on the money. The result was only needing a few thousandths shims before welding up to the main angle pieces. Made us both real happy.

    The 5/8" heims showed up from speedway for mock up use. Finally had my answer to how wide they were to make the fore aft spacing exact center. Made a middle piece to where the steering rack will attach. More on that later. Once had this subframe in place we can finally see a closer idea to start cutting the firewall and raise the exhaust area. I think the goal of front of the strut tower will be between cylinder 1/2 is possible. This subframe will make the control arm attachment points have a 1" roll center correction, and add 1/2" track width per side. Will have full adjust-ability just like a dtm or grp5. Hardware will be grade 8, and 10.9. Heims are all going to be 5/8 moly HD joints. So I bring you the subframe made from 1" x 1/8 wall square tubing.

    DSC06660.jpg
    DSC06661.jpg
    DSC06663.JPG
    DSC06664.jpg
    DSC06665.jpg
    Last edited by autox320; 09-24-2016 at 07:45 PM.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

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