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Thread: E60 348x30 rotor with E31 Brembo caliper

  1. #26
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    Now out for road testing.
    CAD files being tweaked for production.
    Next up, the 850 single in place of the Brembo.

    ***********
    Mounting bolt reversed from before. Original M12 smooth bore got threaded to M14.
    Brembo features accommodated. No Brembo mod required.


    View from inside the right side well.
    Note, hose needs to be disconnected in order to install the upper bolt, bracket to Brembo.


    Checking rotor vs Brembo clearance.
    6mm, slightly more than needed up north.
    Will tighten this up, in case it matters for 17" wheels.


    Checking pad vs rotor edge.
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  2. #27
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    Nice work, Any chance of a 4 pot rear project.

  3. #28
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    Nice work hyper. I am interested in this with the single piston caliber. From what i understand they use the same mounting holes as the brembos. What size wheels are you running 18's? I have 16's right now.
    I assume once your ready you'll give us a run down of all the particulars.

  4. #29
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    * Single -> Over the years and across topics I've had to recheck "common knowledge". Even if the mounting centers were shared, the caliper is moved out of position and can bump into things unexpectedly. {ed: furthermore, my bracket encases the existing mounting points, so shape matters as well as distance.}
    I have access to a '94 850/single, but that would come after single-on-840. Fourth, would be to check out the '91-2's, personally.
    * Wheel size -> The project started with 17's but, unrelated, finished with 18's. Both in Style 42. The 17's will be remounted to check clearance. There is no guarantee that any other particular 17 would clear but I would think that the factory (bmw+supplier) would have a standard for their backside profile, good for a range of vehicles and years.
    * Particulars -> Yeah, I'll get back to you. CNC production is still risky at this point. To get a production price I would have to order up a couple dozen. Each side. So it would be nice to know before hand whether the 4 apps mentioned so far can be merged into one. In the interim I am strongly considering quick turns by hand in my shop. BTW, the pics show naked aluminum while production runs get you powder coat.

    ****************
    * Testing -> I'm looking for incremental improvement in cold performance, but from what I saw on just a single short drive on too-fresh rotors, not much difference. This cruiser won't be turning hot laps, where the advantage should crop up, but I know a guy who would be willing.
    * 4-pot rear -> I would like to see the bias come up on the rears, but I'm partial to budget oriented solutions. While the front 4-post already exist, you would be spending new money on a 4-pot rear. My first choice would be a larger solid, using the existing 1-pot. Now to find me a rotor with that width, diameter, offset, shoe cavity, bolt center, etc. {ed: even this simple plan, increasing rotor diameter, has a problem, as the exiting shield wraps around the perimeter of the stock rotor}.

    Second choice would be 1 or 4-pot on the existing rotor. {ed: given the shield issue, a bigger clamp on the e38 vented is probably the best choice.}

    I've also done a solid ATE 2-pot conversion (from a smaller single), on the MBZ rear.
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8eights View Post
    Nice work, Any chance of a 4 pot rear project.
    I agree! Would love to convert to 4pot rears. Imagine 4pot rears with front e60 conversion. Never again complain or touch the brakes again other than swapping out pads and rotors.

  6. #31
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    Some good news, some bad news.
    Follows a delay due some very important meetings that started on a wharf in Montreal and ended on a wharf in Boston.

    - Good news...
    I've put in more road time and feel that sense of accomplishment.
    After new pads, new SS lines, new fluid plus the E60 rotor, I now can hear my front patch on dry asphalt with Kumho 4Xii all season.
    Could not do that before.
    Otherwise, the difference is quite subtle, probably best described as less pedal effort for the same G's.
    Very smooth and pleasing during operations.
    - Bad news...
    Heard nothing out of my rear patch. Probably won't ever.
    There is still that half-inch (1.27cm) pedal travel before you get to operations, resulting in a half second delay in panic braking, even more for casual braking.
    This is a MC/booster issue, possibly unique to the e31, and not about the rotor/caliper performance.
    Btw, my booster is factory fresh and my MC has been rebuilt using the Max kit.
    - On the other hand...
    Checking out other rear brakes.

    - Good news...
    We are officially in bracket production and I'm financially committed.
    - Bad news...
    One side only, to be checked out, then the other, then all powder coated.
    Give it another month.

    - Good news...
    I've locked in costs, priced out options.
    Complete kits: rotors, pads, lines, fluid, taxes. Around $850.
    Other options: with installation toolbox OR bracket kit only.
    - Bad news...
    I don't trust the average wrencher with the machining and notching. So...
    To start, I'm doing the install with labor included in the above number.
    And thus its a local show until I dumb down the installation just a bit and log all the shit that might happen.
    To start, serving Silicon Valley and SF peninsula, expanding to East and North Bay. (Hmmm...could take the show on the road, work out of my van.)
    To start, only the 4-pot brembo application until I've checked out the 1-pot compatibility.

    - Good news...
    Well, it works on my 18" Style 42's.
    One will assume Mpars are also good-to-go.
    - Bad news...
    After iterating the design (down to 2mm rotor clearance), Brembo calipers still need to come in another 3mm to safely clear the inside of the barrel on a 17" Style 42.
    We don't have another 3mm.
    So, any 17's will first have to undergo a fitment check (on any other car that has been retrofitted).
    Need to build a compatibility list.
    I will not be blindly shipping to 17's not on the compatibility list.
    - On the other hand...
    I've compared the bracket against an early strut & 1-pot caliper.
    Looks promising but haven't mounted yet.
    Iron has an opportunity to be thinner and might produce a longer compatibility list.


    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDO5OO1A View Post
    Somewhere I saw someone going to vented rotors on the rear as opposed to the stock, solid disk. They weren't with 4 pot calipers but I would think that the upgrade would be enough to match what you have done for the front.
    You are right about 17"s not working it looks too close. Even if you don't consider balancing weights.
    As I think you have mentioned before brake balance between front and rear is a difficult parameter to chase.
    The Euro CSi rear brakes have the one piston setup, with ///M on the caliper and uses the vented calipers. I just rebuilt mine during the B12 restoration.

    As a side note, when rebuilding the calipers, I used the G2 paint system. HATE IT!! it does not go on smooth at all and ended up contacting the company. The G2 system was applied exact as per the instructions with no deviation. I have been in contact with the company regarding the issues. Definitely not a show quality finish. All 4 calipers had to be stripped then refinished with another system.
    CSi #18 - Car & Driver Magazine 1994 actual test car
    -- Hellrot/Black-Gray (1 of 1 NA CSi color combination)
    BMWCCA E31 Chapter International Clubs Liaison
    North America Representative, 8er.or Board of Directors




  8. #33
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    Is it safe to assume part #34116864906 for E60 should bolt right up on the E31 with Brembo calipers?
    324x30.jpg

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    ...1-pot caliper.
    Looks promising but haven't mounted yet...
    Now I have.
    Needs a little work.
    The 1-pot sits 1-2mm closer than the Brembo.
    {ed: For production, the design was split into 2 versions, Brembo and ATE, with the radius differing by 2mm.}
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    Now I have.
    Needs a little work.
    The 1-pot sits 1-2mm closer than the Brembo.
    Are you going to adjust the bracket to work with both calipers?
    I guess this means that 18" wheels will be a requirement.
    Last edited by wolfebrian2120; 10-18-2016 at 02:58 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    Some good news, some bad news.
    - Good news...
    I've put in more road time and feel that sense of accomplishment.
    After new pads, new SS lines, new fluid plus the E60 rotor, I now can hear my front patch on dry asphalt with Kumho 4Xii all season.
    ...
    ...difference is quite subtle, probably best described as less pedal effort for the same G's.
    ...
    - Bad news...
    Heard nothing out of my rear patch. Probably won't ever.
    There is still that half-inch (1.27cm) pedal travel before you get to operations, resulting in a half second delay in panic braking, even more for casual braking.
    This is a MC/booster issue, possibly unique to the e31, and not about the rotor/caliper performance.
    Btw, my booster is factory fresh and my MC has been rebuilt using the Max kit.
    About the feel of the brakes...haven't seen you mention this so, I just bled the final piece of my hydraulic system from the top of pressure regulator and there was definite (to my surprise) improvement in how braking starts. I could see surprising amount of aerated fluid coming out of the regulator and it was dead easy.

    You only need a piece of clear hose (maybe 15cm but it is obvious when you look) from the top of regulator to opened hydraulic reservoir and a pair of wrenches.
    No spills, bled fluid goes back to reservoir.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNurmenniemi View Post
    About the feel of the brakes...haven't seen you mention this so, I just bled the final piece of my hydraulic system from the top of pressure regulator and there was definite (to my surprise) improvement in how braking starts. I could see surprising amount of aerated fluid coming out of the regulator and it was dead easy.

    You only need a piece of clear hose (maybe 15cm but it is obvious when you look) from the top of regulator to opened hydraulic reservoir and a pair of wrenches.
    No spills, bled fluid goes back to reservoir.
    Do you bleed without depressurizing the brake bomb? Engine running or not?

  13. #38
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    First engine off, car happened to have driven the previous day so some pressure was present still. Most of the bleeding happened at this time looking from the amount of air coming out.

    Just to be sure I did leave the bleeder screw loose (only just) and started the car with additional bubbles come with this method. Also had couple of warning lights due to missing pressure in the system but these went away with a restart.

    Easiest and at the same time most satisfying job I ever did on the car.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNurmenniemi View Post
    First engine off, car happened to have driven the previous day so some pressure was present still. Most of the bleeding happened at this time looking from the amount of air coming out.

    Just to be sure I did leave the bleeder screw loose (only just) and started the car with additional bubbles come with this method. Also had couple of warning lights due to missing pressure in the system but these went away with a restart.

    Easiest and at the same time most satisfying job I ever did on the car.
    Good to know, thank you. Will bleed mine the same way.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    ...We are officially in bracket production...
    Production units have now been produced, thanks to Pat and crew at Euro Machining, Santa Clara.
    On visits to the shop, I take my E31 fitted out with both pre-production brackets and also the E90 44/22 calipers from the rear brake survey.
    Brackets shown are suitable for the Brembo but not the ATE 1-pot.
    A merged compromise of the two requirements has been worked out for the next run.
    {ed: Nope. The two requirements were split. Throw in left & right, there are 4 different brackets. Each with its own minimum production lot quantity.}
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:46 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  16. #41
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    Awesome Hyper,
    You can count me in for the 1 pot bracket. How much are you looking at selling the brackets for, now that you have an idea at what the production is gonna cost?

  17. #42
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    I'm still several steps from unbundled bracket sales.
    I've mentioned above a baseline for bundled installation with a budget-oriented standard rotor and pads.

    *************
    For the 1-pot, R&D is still going on and just now I did have to sink additional capital into equipment.
    Seems its true, eventually you will get caught if you abuse a drill press as a mill.
    Fractured bit, bent spindle.
    Spindle is NLA. Although I might get it repaired, it would only happen again if I continued sinning.
    Repentant, a real mill is now inbound and 1-pot development is set back by 10 days.

    ************
    The 1-pot problem differs from the Brembo in that...
    - The ATE 1-pot seems to sit closer to the hub by 1-2mm, re: bracket-rotor clearance and pad position.
    - Unlike on the Brembo, (upon finally bolting up an ATE, it was discovered that) there is a direct collision between the hose port and the northern mounting bolt, requiring the bolt to be countersinked to allow the hose to be attached.
    - The ATE 1-pot is waaay heavier. 14.6lbs vs 9.2 loaded. Then, the biggest pot-hole you've ever seen in your life runs right out in front of you. Doesn't look or nothin'. Not your fault.

    These issues motivate an alternate design and materials for the 1-pot application, either spun off from or merged with the Brembo.

    ************
    I still need to make the strut mod a no-brainer.
    Beyond basic brake maintenance activities, one needs to ...
    - run a drill-n-tap thru the northern bolt hole
    - notch out the shield.
    These are irreversible steps, so I need to consider a jig, pattern and tools that absolutely FORCE an independent novice to get it right.
    I have not yet designed and built a jig.
    Needs to be cheap and easy to make, so I can loan them out.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    ...you will get caught if you abuse a drill press as a mill...a real mill is now inbound...
    Contributed to the China trade deficit.


    **** Mill vs Drill *****
    The mill is comparatively rigid in the lateral planes because the head and stage or captured inside rails, seen here looking down from the top.
    The stage is fixed/bolted perpendicular to the head travel.


    By contrast the drill press relies on clamping force on a round pole to supply lateral support.
    Similar deal for maintaining the stage at level.


    Not unexpected, the endmill caught a flute tip, which broke off.
    The clamped stage was tossed aside and out of level as the tool churned across the side of the work, finally stopped by an impassable inside corner.
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  19. #44
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    Great effort on this project! Thank you!

  20. #45
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    Thanks for the support.
    ******
    Update. I have been sorting out the fitment of the ATE 1-pot.
    Sorry, this work stretches beyond the thread title.



    Our spot of trouble with the E60 rotor versus the E31 rotor, is that while the overall diameter increased by an inch, the hat diameter not only increased but by way more than an inch, thus eating into room available for the pad and caliper.


    This is not a problem in its intended application because the E60 caliper and pad is (radially) shorter than the e31 ATE.


    Sidebar, the E60 caliper is not a bolt-on because the mounting bolt spacing does not match the e31.
    Could be done using yet another bracket but the caliper acquisition would would be a flagrant violation of the "run what you brung" rule of the on-a-budget cult.
    Fyi, the sizeable E60 does not out weigh the E31 ATE by any significant amount because it is made from a light alloy, same as the E60 rears.


    So the adapter bracket was iterated until the "rattle" clip had clearance from the hat, although this put the pad a millimeter beyond the perimeter.
    Also for the ATE I've switched to 7075 aluminum vs 6061 used for the lighter Brembo.


    It was found that the StopTech rotors have a slightly smaller diameter hat than Zimmerman, thus guaranteeing more clip clearance.
    And so this was the pairing on the first customer install.
    Note the use of the oem style Jurid pad with a GF friction spec.


    Reminds me, I still owe a pad shoot out, not done here.
    And not shown here, Hawk HPS and my former EBC Red.
    I'm mostly interested in semi-metallic but the EBC Green and Red are organic and ceramic respectively.


    Just briefly though...
    In back-to-back A-B testing, same car, ATE vs Brembo, my brake woes seemed to follow the Brembo while the ATE put a smile on my face.
    However, it still wasn't a one-variable comparison because it is difficult or impossible to get an identical brand/line pad for both calipers.
    The Brembo had Centric PosiQuiet FF whereas the ATE had a mystery FF from a Nastra rebuild.


    *******
    I'm now getting ready for several local, full service, qualified installs.
    "Local" means California SF peninsula.
    "Full service" means I bring everything, front and rear.
    "Qualified" means 18 inch wheels and an adventurous personality. No kids, no lawyer friends.
    So I'm accumulating a small inventory of brackets & hardware plus rotors, pads, lines, fluid and rebuilt & painted rear calipers.





    For mail order, I'm accumulating sets of tools to be leased out.

    *******************
    A comprehensive PDF....



    covers...
    - installation
    - hardline repair
    - caliper rebuilding
    - brake bleeding
    - pad selection

    Sample: hardline repair
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-13-2017 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  21. #46
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    Impressive job One question, as it is not clear to me.

    With your latest changes to the adapter bracket... will it work with a 17" throwing star and the ATE caliper , or this is not possible ( not "qualified" ;-) ) ??
    How will be the front/rear balance with the E60 front plus E38 750 vented rears and calipers ?
    Last edited by dudu850; 12-06-2016 at 07:36 AM.

  22. #47
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    I have not tried the TS fitment, but can comment anyway...
    The factory TS + ATE combination as it occurred in the US was on a 324x30 rotor, same as the 850i, so this combination would have no reason to have larger rotors as a design target.
    Elsewhere, with the 345x32 rotor in use, its a different caliper, not the ATE 60/30 single. Therefore we gain no advice there either.
    On top of that I had to move the ATE 1.5mm further out to build clearance between the clip and the hat.
    So, the TS+ATE fitment is uncertain (to me at this moment).

    ********
    The E38/750 has a 40mm piston, same as the stock E31.
    So the BBK on Budget up at the front causes the bias to shift forward in either case (E38 or stock).
    At least for evaluation in association with the front BBKoB, my short lived E38-40/20 experiment has been swapped out for the E53-42/12 solid, the E53-42/20, and the E90-44/22.
    I am enthusiastic about the E53-42/12 app as the calipers are readily available, (re)use the stock E31 rotors and require no mods. {ed: except reshaping the hole at the hose mtg point on the chassis.}
    Sorry, the pads are not the same as for the E31-40/12, due to a difference in the ID of the piston. {ed: Same shape iirc, but the clip on the E31 pad will fail to grab the E53 piston. Not exactly a crisis, but not recommended either.}
    The E53-42/20 requires a shaving the 328 rotor and the E90-44/22 requires new mounting holes in the caliper bracket.
    On paper, the 42mm pistons should give a boost comparable to what's happening up front with the BBKoB, about 10%.
    Last edited by Hyper; 12-06-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  23. #48
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    ok cool. So you are looking at other alternatives for rear brakes. Based on what I have read/felt the ATE caliper is already biased at the front. So you expect the bigger rotor to add to that bias?

    I was thinking of the E38 rear calipers and vented disc, but you don't think thats enough to balance it out?

  24. #49
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    I stopped at a auto salvage shop today and saw a '92 740i that had much larger brakes than the '91 850 I am working on. BMW 60/30/348 calipers on the front and 60/28/302 calipers on the back with vented rotors front and rear. These are 'floating' calipers and the fronts look awfully heavy. Just curious if these brakes will fit on the 850?

  25. #50
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    I'm with you 100% all the way except that...
    - I had to dial up 1993 to get a e32 (?) "740".
    - Said stock '93 740 had 302x28 rotors up front, and apparently 302x20 rotors rear. re: 850/US: 324x30 and 324x12 iirc.
    - If my reading of RockAuto is correct, the '93 740i rear calipers would most likely be a 40/20 vented spec vs 40/12 solid for the 850.

    The application in this thread, a 60/30 caliper over a 348 rotor, has been known to work with 18" M-par and 18" style 42.
    Anything else is speculation.

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