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Thread: Hillclimb Racecar turbo E36 M3 Build

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    Hillclimb Racecar turbo E36 M3 Build

    Hello all, it is time for me to start a build thread for a turbo e36 racecar that I will be building for the Pennsylvania Hillclimb series. I have run the hills with a BSP M3 (street car with roll bar), an ITR racecar (road race car with slow 2.8L NA) and a supercharged M3 but now I want some more torque to try to be one of the fastest door slammers on the hill!

    Last year I campaigned the supercharged M3 with great results. I started with an old stage one C38 kit that I installed on the car along with an ebay intercooler and other hodge-podge parts and purchased an RK tune and made 400whp all year long without any issues. The linear power of the blower along with the 3.73 rear was actually a perfect setup for accelerating out of all the slow speed switchbacks on the course. Im actually a bit concerned with power delivery and gearing of a turbo setup and would love to hear input from the knowledgably people on the board here!
    I think a tried and true 450-500 whp turbo setup, like the ones that have been discussed and built countless times on the board are what I am looking for. I cant afford to purchase a new kit, but I do realize that If I spend 3500-4500 over the course of a few months while I am building it I might be able to get what Im after. This is basically going to be track car build along with a turbo build so my bank account gets to deal with the best of both worlds, lol! This will be my third racecar build so I wont really focus on the boring track car stuff in this thread, just mainly the turbo stuff. Ill list below some of my goals and specs of the project, feel free to chime in with any input!

    1. Goal is to build a fully caged turbo racecar that is still semi-street legal

    2. Shooting for 450-500 WHP

    3. Keeping budget in mind, Im thinking of using a SPA manifold and something like a GT35 or 6266, but I would love some input here.

    4. I don’t mind doing some fab work for the hot and cold sides…but ideally I would like to find some or all of a used kit

    5. Tune – I think the best thing to do here is to just bite the bullet and purchase a tune from TRM or Technica for maximum support and flexibility.

    6. Exhaust-I don’t know, something very simply and loud. Putting on a show is part of the event, the louder and nastier the better! Flames would be a plus

    7. Hillclimbs are short time trials (1-2 miles) with a standing start and flying finish. The course is a public road that is shut down for the weekend. There are many sections of 2nd gear turns that are linked together as switchbacks along with high speed straightaways with speeds from 130-140 MPH. Gearing and power band is important on the slower stuff as you need a long power band and/or be able to bang off the rev limiter sometimes to avoid upshifts right before the next switchback. This is also where a quick spooling setup would be important…but it also cant run out of steam at high RPMS.

    8. Car will be a 98 M3 coupe

    9. Will run 275 or 285 A7s Hoosiers after the Hard Motorsports flares are added.

    10. I will be taking the S52 from the supercharged car because It has already been resealed, although it will get a cutring gasket instead of the MLS that I put in there last year. Then the supercharged car will be converted back to road race mode.

    11. Use the E36 diff and run the bimmerdiffs 4 clutch pack kit. Not sure on ratio yet, 3.15?











    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1CuDGsorNiY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Last edited by bimmerbumm193; 06-03-2016 at 02:21 PM.
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    Id say a 35r on a 3.2 would pull a premium for race wars.

    Those action shots are cool as hell. Looks like you got a pretty decent plan in place.
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    So the build has been delayed while I finish renovating the barn/garage. A siding job has opened a HUGE can of worms including major structural reinforcement, addind another garage door, concrete work and lift installation Here is the coupe I picked up for the build. It is a bone stock 98 M3 with 220k on it that has a bad clutch and beat dove vaders, but other than that is a pretty darn nice car. Its almost too nice to start hacking into.

    So what spec 6266 would fit the 3.2 for good acceleration for 2nd gear switchbacks and also provide a good top end for straightaway blasts?

    Also, after just returning from a hillclimb with the supercharged car, I cant help to think how awesome a Turbo SMG E46 would be on the hills. I mean you can fit more tire under it without any work, the SMG would save mental capacity devoted to using the clutch and trying to heal-toe, and there is the savings of not having to even open the motor and do the whole head gasket thing that is required with the S52. Plus the extra RPMs of the S54 would come in real handy in some situations. I know everything is more expensive for the E46, but other than the intake manifold, what additional costs are substantially more for a E46 build?

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    Last edited by bimmerbumm193; 07-13-2016 at 03:29 PM.
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    First of all, you're getting influenced by a lot of the guys here that dragrace their cars on turbo selection. You don't need some huge 650+ rwhp turbo to do 450-500 rwhp.


    It's not a popular opinion here because it's not the tried and true "bolt on that Precision Chinacharger!" path, but I think the effort to put a Borg Warner EFR is definitely worth it. I used to be skeptical, then I got one and drove it and beat on it. It's so much better than a comparable Garrett offering it's not even funny. Don't even get me started on Precisions... It's the biggest step change in turbo performance for the street we've ever seen when it comes down to transient response - which is what you want.

    This is an 8374 on a tiny 2L! Look at that powerband and power...




    Imagine that on a 3L or larger - amazing powerband, power for days. Actually, for just 500 rwhp and instant response you could do a 7163. But you'll probably get greedy on power (that's why you're here right???) - so I'd go with a 7670 probably, that should do 600 rwhp and respond like a "tiny" GT3076R Garrett, or even a GT3071R...


    As for controlling the power - it's easy. A 500 rwhp 3.2L turbo engine will be very very very easy to drive with the right turbo on it. Hint - don't put a 700 rwhp turbo on it to do 500 rwhp!!!

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    ^^^ That powerband is epic


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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    ^^^ That powerband is epic
    But mostly due to RPM


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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    First of all, you're getting influenced by a lot of the guys here that dragrace their cars on turbo selection. You don't need some huge 650+ rwhp turbo to do 450-500 rwhp.


    It's not a popular opinion here because it's not the tried and true "bolt on that Precision Chinacharger!" path, but I think the effort to put a Borg Warner EFR is definitely worth it. I used to be skeptical, then I got one and drove it and beat on it. It's so much better than a comparable Garrett offering it's not even funny. Don't even get me started on Precisions... It's the biggest step change in turbo performance for the street we've ever seen when it comes down to transient response - which is what you want.

    This is an 8374 on a tiny 2L! Look at that powerband and power...




    Imagine that on a 3L or larger - amazing powerband, power for days. Actually, for just 500 rwhp and instant response you could do a 7163. But you'll probably get greedy on power (that's why you're here right???) - so I'd go with a 7670 probably, that should do 600 rwhp and respond like a "tiny" GT3076R Garrett, or even a GT3071R...


    As for controlling the power - it's easy. A 500 rwhp 3.2L turbo engine will be very very very easy to drive with the right turbo on it. Hint - don't put a 700 rwhp turbo on it to do 500 rwhp!!!

    This is the EXACT type of feedback I was looking for, thanks!! So are there any fitment issues with the EFR 7670 with the spa manifold? I have just grazed the surface with reading up on them and some people are mentioning they are a bit longer than most or something. As long as they fit they seem like a great fit for my application. What is the downside to the EFRs and why arent they more popular?

    Which housing and flange would be ideal? I see they have internal WG with the .83 single and 0.92 double but external with the 1.05 T4.
    I originally said my goal was 450-500whp, but Id like to leave some room for more later.

    I will say again, I absolutely love the power delivery of the supercharger due to its predictability. When you are mid corner in third gear flying through the woods its nice to just roll into the throttle and have a nice linear push in the back vs having some lag then instant tire spin sending you into a tree. I know its not that black and white, but Im trying to make a point. The power delivery is great of the CF supercharger, but it is obviously not enough. Also I geared the car way down with a 3.73 making 1st worthless for launching and it would be nice to have longer gears due to a torquier engine. Am I looking for a setup that makes a decent amount more HP than torque maybe?
    96 328i ITR Racecar
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    I've never seen an EFR on a spa manifold. Keep in mind with a bottom mount, your space is limited and the exhaust housing could hit the transmission. Many have only used garretts or precisions on bottom mount setups. Gets real tight under there especially with above the subframe intercooler piping.


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    i will also chime in on the virtues of EFR turbos. the delivery is so much more linear than Garretts and PTEs. in back to back rides with 500awhp cars, one Garrett powered, one EFR, the difference was staggering. the Garrett came on all at once and hit like a freight train. the EFR was so smooth and progressive in its power delivery, it almost didn't feel like a turbo'd car. it just felt like a massively powerful NA car.

    and the EFR guys at PRI are always super cool and knowledgeable and give out the coolest trinkets. (measuring tape with integrated post-it and pen last year)
    always trying to make it lighter and faster

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    But mostly due to RPM
    Or the actual parts that make the engine breathe like the turbo and cams... To spool a big turbo up that soon on a 2L is huge. A Garrett that size will be way way later on boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerbumm193 View Post
    This is the EXACT type of feedback I was looking for, thanks!! So are there any fitment issues with the EFR 7670 with the spa manifold? I have just grazed the surface with reading up on them and some people are mentioning they are a bit longer than most or something. As long as they fit they seem like a great fit for my application. What is the downside to the EFRs and why arent they more popular?

    Which housing and flange would be ideal? I see they have internal WG with the .83 single and 0.92 double but external with the 1.05 T4.
    I originally said my goal was 450-500whp, but Id like to leave some room for more later.

    I will say again, I absolutely love the power delivery of the supercharger due to its predictability. When you are mid corner in third gear flying through the woods its nice to just roll into the throttle and have a nice linear push in the back vs having some lag then instant tire spin sending you into a tree. I know its not that black and white, but Im trying to make a point. The power delivery is great of the CF supercharger, but it is obviously not enough. Also I geared the car way down with a 3.73 making 1st worthless for launching and it would be nice to have longer gears due to a torquier engine. Am I looking for a setup that makes a decent amount more HP than torque maybe?
    I don't have an E36 turbo BMW, can't answer your specific fitment questions.

    Driving a turbo car fast is easy. I track one with more lag than you'll have and think it's just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    Or the actual parts that make the engine breathe like the turbo and cams... To spool a big turbo up that soon on a 2L is huge. A Garrett that size will be way way later on boost.
    ... and RPM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    ... and RPM.
    It makes 385 hp per liter to the wheels and makes peak boost over 55% of its rpm range. Regardless of rpm can you find another example of a car that can match that?
    Last edited by someguy2800; 07-16-2016 at 04:59 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    It makes 385 hp per liter to the wheels and makes peak boost over 55% of its rpm range. Regardless of rpm can you find another example of a car that can match that?
    I can find similar I am sure - I knew a guy with a turbo hayabusa several years ago who was doing 375 - 400 rwhp out of, I think, a stock displacement engine.

    They also rev very high compared to engines we're familiar with.

    Yes, it takes thought to make power at 10,000 - 11,000 RPM, but considering we can't even think about it, it's foreign. You can get a real, real wide power band when you have 5,000 RPM of usefulness with a turbo that flows enough air. For our cars to make 800 rwhp, we need to run pretty large turbos. So, to put it in perspective in comparison to the dyno Def posted - we need to run large laggy turbos to make 800 RWHP. But, to make only 500 wtq, we don't.

    It's all RPM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    I can find similar I am sure - I knew a guy with a turbo hayabusa several years ago who was doing 375 - 400 rwhp out of, I think, a stock displacement engine.

    They also rev very high compared to engines we're familiar with.

    Yes, it takes thought to make power at 10,000 - 11,000 RPM, but considering we can't even think about it, it's foreign. You can get a real, real wide power band when you have 5,000 RPM of usefulness with a turbo that flows enough air. For our cars to make 800 rwhp, we need to run pretty large turbos. So, to put it in perspective in comparison to the dyno Def posted - we need to run large laggy turbos to make 800 RWHP. But, to make only 500 wtq, we don't.

    It's all RPM.
    No... it's not.

    The turbo will flow what it'll flow. It'll do 800 rwhp on a BMW too. The fact that it spools up a turbo that large at 4k RPM is what's crazy about it. Normally a turbo that large would be coming in around 5-5.5k RPM on a 2L.

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    So if an EFR doesnt fit on an E36 with the SPA bottom mount, It would need to go top mount?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerbumm193 View Post
    So if an EFR doesnt fit on an E36 with the SPA bottom mount, It would need to go top mount?
    Precisely. But I'd love for someone to prove me wrong cuz I'd easily switch. Even on top mounts, the exhaust housing looks a lot closer to the strut housing than most. May need some slight persuasion to get it to fit.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    First of all, you're getting influenced by a lot of the guys here that dragrace their cars on turbo selection. You don't need some huge 650+ rwhp turbo to do 450-500 rwhp.


    It's not a popular opinion here because it's not the tried and true "bolt on that Precision Chinacharger!" path, but I think the effort to put a Borg Warner EFR is definitely worth it. I used to be skeptical, then I got one and drove it and beat on it. It's so much better than a comparable Garrett offering it's not even funny. Don't even get me started on Precisions... It's the biggest step change in turbo performance for the street we've ever seen when it comes down to transient response - which is what you want.

    This is an 8374 on a tiny 2L! Look at that powerband and power...

    Is this an sr20???

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    I don't normally hop on the EFR wagon... actually i do. Seriously look at EFR if you want a real road racing car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    No... it's not.

    The turbo will flow what it'll flow. It'll do 800 rwhp on a BMW too. The fact that it spools up a turbo that large at 4k RPM is what's crazy about it. Normally a turbo that large would be coming in around 5-5.5k RPM on a 2L.
    Engineer vs "engineer"

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    Quote Originally Posted by e30polak View Post
    Is this an sr20???
    i'd bet it's a 4AGE or RB20.
    always trying to make it lighter and faster

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    ...and were back, lol. Small delay with finishing garage project and other life related interruptions. Car is gutted and currently at the roll cage shop. Before it left I made some aluminum door panels which turned out pretty good. Since the 220k stock engine will be pulled and set aside for storage/spare parts I wanted to do a compression test on it before it was removed from the car. I got 200-215 PSI in all but one cylinder which has 130 PSI. I squirted some oil in that cylinder and got over 300PSI! What does that mean?

    So anyway Im still not decided on the turbo selection and have flip-flopped a few times about the EFR turbos. I dont have the time nor money to do anything twice in regards to buying a super expensive steed/efr combo and chase down creep issues, but it seems as long as I use both the internal and external wastegate it will work fine. If the dual wastegate system works than I will go with the an EFR. What do you think about the 7670 for 500-550 whp? I have also been having thoughts about using the steed and a twin scroll GTW6262R , 0.70, to save a few bucks.



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    For 500-550 I would get the gtw6265 with a TS 1.0 housing. I don't think the 6262 with a .70 will make the power. It will choke.
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    Decided on the 8374 EFR, I just think it suits my needs the best. Still waiting for car to come back from cage shop so I started getting ready to do the cut-ring gasket. I pulled the head and sent to machine shop. Started the sanding stone process and have done 6-7 passes and there are still some low spot/pitts around a few of the coolant passages but I think Im going to stop here because the darn thing was holding fine with the MLS with only scrapping with a razor.

    I ordered the cut-ring gasket. So the consensus is to use copper spray on both sides of the spacer and Honda lube on the timing area, right?

    IMG_7509.jpg
    1st pass with rough stone


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    I think thats good enough, to get the dark areas out I would need to remove more than I was comfortable with. It sealed with a MLS and looked way worse than that.
    Last edited by bimmerbumm193; 01-16-2017 at 03:44 PM.
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