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Thread: Looking into making an MSPNP Pro for the M50 and M52 engines

  1. #1
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    Looking into making an MSPNP Pro for the M50 and M52 engines

    I'm still waiting to hear back from the mods on setting up a vendor account (the email that you're supposed to use for advertising reports the mailbox is full), but we've got a lot of people asking for this on the forum, so I'm starting a thread about it. I am now updating this thread as of as of October 2017 to reflect that the MSPNP for '93-'95 M50/S50 applications is now a regular production item, thanks to your support.

    We've seen some interest going around for an MSPNP for the M50 and M52 engines. So, here's what we can do. Because of how many inputs and outputs these engines need, an MSPNP would be based on the MS3-Pro instead of the MS2 based MSPNP currently offered for the M20. Retail pricing works out to $1499 plus shipping. Those in the group buy get $200 off. The initial release will be for manual transmissions only. We may come back and investigate if we can get the automatic transmissions working too, as the transmission control is not built into the ECU but the ECU does need a few supporting features.

    Covering the entire six cylinder E36 range will need three MSPNPs. One for the '92 M50 non VANOS, one for the '93-'95 OBD1 M50 and S50, and one for the '96 and later OBD2 M52 and S52. The MSPNP for the '93-'95 VANOS equipped OBD1 cars has already been released and is now a regular production item.

    Some of the highlights of what an MSPNP Pro for these engines could do:

    - Sequential fuel and ignition control
    - VANOS control
    - Boost control with boost by gear, speed based boost control, and rally style antilag
    - Launch control with timed boost and timed timing ramp-in after launch
    - Progressive nitrous control
    - Tunable traction control (Note -I think we can keep the factory ASC happy, but I can't guarantee it. The MS3-Pro, however, has its own traction control)
    - Pit lane speed limiter
    - OEM-like flex fuel support
    - Individual cylinder fuel and spark trim tables
    - Onboard data logging via SD card
    - Built in peak and hold injector drivers
    - Two extra VSS inputs on board to allow reading both front wheel speed sensors for traction control

    And more!

    To make this happen, we will need a 10 unit group buy for each ECU. The OBD1 VANOS group buy is completed; we will be opening a separate group buy for the OBD2 cars next, once we can block out some time for our engineering team to give this their undivided attention - we can't get started right now, but I suspect we'll be able to get on this one going before the end of 2017. After that, we'll see about other mid '90s applications, such as the M50 non VANOs or M42. It could happen if there's enough interest.

    We will need to secure a test car (we can probably find one locally without too much trouble, but if you're in the Atlanta area and interested in providing a test car, let me know) in relatively stock condition with no significant electrical problems. And we will need a $300 deposit from everyone in the group buy, to be applied to the ECUs when they're ready (or refunded if for any reason we are not able to deliver the MSPNP). We expect the ECUs to be ready within 3 months of receiving the deposits and the test car. We will not start collecting deposits until we have at least 10 people signed up and we have cleared a solid block of time for the engineering team to ensure those who put down their money get an ECU as quickly as we can deliver without compromising quality.

    So - who's in?

    - - - Updated - - -
    I've deleted the OBD1 group buy sign up list as the group buy has been completed and this ECU is now a regular production item.

    OBD2:
    Butters Stoch
    litemup
    s13flyboy
    Brycer
    Kurtisja
    illmatik
    spenka
    Turbo E36
    NY98M3
    SCapelo
    JimsR
    Flanky
    Mod Addict
    e36luve
    exvitermini2
    Duchess
    ltw97m3
    somebody5788
    NY98M3
    charles318
    e36ShawnnyD
    WillieGX3
    CoreyDRZ400SM
    trackE36

    Non VANOS:
    imagine2

    OBD1 VANOS MSPNPs are now shipping. Our goal on the OBD2 unit is to be able to deliver these units within 3 months of starting the group buy.
    Last edited by Matt Cramer; 08-31-2018 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Final pricing and other details added.
    Matt Cramer
    1997 BMW 328i convertible, 1972 Chevy C10 pickup, 1966 Dodge Dart slant six
    BMW - where "Why doesn't everybody build cars the way they do?" meets "Why can't they build a car the same way everyone else does it?"

  2. #2
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    I'm really interested in this.
    Since I've done pretty much everything possible on this rig, and daily wrench turning at my shop, this will be a nice break from all that and explore untouched grounds for me. And the best part is, I can fiddle with it, and pull it right out and in with Nick's tuning.
    Time to learn this crap I guess.
    1996 332IS
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  3. #3
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    OBD2 I'm in.

    It may be obvious but I'll ask anyway

    Boost sensor included? Or do I tap into my Innovate sensor?
    Fuel pressure sensor?
    Base Map included?
    How many extra inputs will be there for external non OEM sensors?

    I've been toying with the idea of upgrading from my 42lb tune to a 60lb tune. This will get me there.

  4. #4
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    I'd be in for obd2 also.

  5. #5
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    Matt, are you thinking MAF and MAP, or just MAP? (not just MAF I hope)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and obviously you'd be adding in the necessary 6 coil drivers I guess? No chance you'd set it up with 8 of them for an eventual evolution to the M60-S62 family would you?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    OBD2 I'm in. It may be obvious but I'll ask anyway Boost sensor included? Or do I tap into my Innovate sensor? Fuel pressure sensor? Base Map included? How many extra inputs will be there for external non OEM sensors? I've been toying with the idea of upgrading from my 42lb tune to a 60lb tune. This will get me there.
    If you want to have boost control/log boost you'll need an additional map sensor as ms3-pro doesn't have an on-board map sensor compared
    To the standard ms3x. fuel pressure sensor is an extra input that can be added in as well. There are quite a few Extra inputs/outputs available for extra sensors. As for a base tune, I'm sure Matt will have something to get you going.

    I can help out here in this thread with any questions as I've been running ms3-pro on my ti for 3 years, so I know it pretty well.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tptrsn View Post
    Matt, are you thinking MAF and MAP, or just MAP? (not just MAF I hope) - - - Updated - - - Oh, and obviously you'd be adding in the necessary 6 coil drivers I guess? No chance you'd set it up with 8 of them for an eventual evolution to the M60-S62 family would you?
    You can do map-only, maf-only or maf+map.

    I would recommend having a map sensor no matter what, I run maf as my only fuel/load calculation & map for logging and boost control. For this to be a pnp I'd assume it will have drivers installed to make it truly a pnp affair.

    I don't think this will work as a m6x ecu as the pinouts will be totally different.

  8. #8
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    Absolutely, but if it's the same 88pin connector (?) then maybe it would be something that they could evolve into that use fairly easily in the future. Maybe not, I don't know. Lol

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tptrsn View Post
    Absolutely, but if it's the same 88pin connector (?) then maybe it would be something that they could evolve into that use fairly easily in the future. Maybe not, I don't know. Lol
    They do use the same connector but the pin input/outputs etc will be different. They'll need to make a new pcb for it, fit extra drivers etc. not an easy task.

  10. #10
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    Count me in, obd2.

  11. #11
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    I like this. I assume to be PNP it will be set up as maf primarily, but like e30kid89 explains, using a map sensor (if only for boost control) is almost certianly a must.

    ill know how many units I'm in for when the list gets closer to full. Most of
    my installs have been obd1.

    how will the unused I/O's be handled? DB connector on the side of the case?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I really really like megasquirt. I think there are big advantages over other systems in its range. It's probably the most flexible out of all of them and I know for a fact it has some of the best support.

    and with the recent edition of the new tuning software, it really takes the entire system to another level.

    i use it on many turbo bmws, and all of our LS stuff. We have 3 cars in the shop on ms3, including mine
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  12. #12
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    So, you run MAF for vac , then switch to MAP for positive pressure ?
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
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  13. #13
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    This is awesome, sub'd.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    So, you run MAF for vac , then switch to MAP for positive pressure ?
    I use MAF full-time for fuel/timing/afr load. It's my only load algorithm I use. MAP is only there for the ecu to have a vac/boost reference so I can also have boost control.

    One other feature I really love is Boost by gear. Entering your final drive ratio, gear ratios and having the speed input to MS and it can calculate what gear you are in. Very accurate as well to my surprise, I assumed a gear sensor of sorts would be the only way for gear detection.

  15. #15
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    have you guys considered just making a small jumper harness? Using your BOB. Thats how AEM infinity and ECU masters does it. There could be some advantages like cost, the ability for the end user to be able to add and move pins, allows use of the standard 3.57 or pro box...

    The coil drivers could easily be added in the BOB

    The only issues i see are being able to support the OBD2 cam sensor (if it does take a hardware change), and switching the factory main relay (but hardware to do so could also fit in the BOB box.)

    Just spit ballin here
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    OBD2 I'm in.

    It may be obvious but I'll ask anyway

    Boost sensor included? Or do I tap into my Innovate sensor?
    Yes. This will have a 4 bar MAP sensor built in. A standard MS3-Pro does not have a built in MAP sensor due to the sealed case, but the MSPNPs are not sealed, so we can get a MAP sensor in there no problem.

    Fuel pressure sensor?
    The MSPNP Pro will allow adding one. It can be used for closed loop fuel pump control or fuel pressure safety.

    Base Map included?
    Yes, for a stock M52.

    How many extra inputs will be there for external non OEM sensors?
    The MS3-Pro normally has three extra analog inputs. However, we will probably dedicate one to MAF input and one to barometric correction, leaving one free. There are normally seven spare on/off and frequency inputs; I will have to see how many of those get taken up by various OEM functions. But this system is expandable using a CAN bus. Want eight thermocouples, one per cylinder plus a pre and post turbo temperature? You can add a CAN-EGT module. If you need more generic sensors, you can add a MicroSquirt running IO Box firmware to give you seven more analog channels, plus a ton of on/off inputs and outputs.

    Quote Originally Posted by tptrsn View Post
    Matt, are you thinking MAF and MAP, or just MAP? (not just MAF I hope)
    The MSPNP Pro will be set up for an internal 4 bar MAP sensor plus the factory MAF input. For our existing Supra MSPNP Pro, we released separate MAP and MAF basemaps; we may do this for these MSPNPs, or just release the MAP base map.

    And yes, you can assign different functions to MAP and MAF. Boost control, for example, always uses the MAP sensor whether you have a MAF present or not. You can assign the fuel and spark tables separately so that you have MAF based fueling and MAP based ignition curves, or ignore both of them and run your fuel and ignition off the TPS instead (useful for engines with wild cams and ITBs, not so useful for forced induction).

    Oh, and obviously you'd be adding in the necessary 6 coil drivers I guess? No chance you'd set it up with 8 of them for an eventual evolution to the M60-S62 family would you?
    It will have the coil drivers built in, as it will support the factory coils. And it will have some extra injector drivers to allow staged injection.

    We'll have a look at the M60 family when we make these. If it turns out the ECUs use closely related pinouts, there's a good chance we'll design the PCB to support these. I can't promise one MSPNP will cove both models with no changes. Depending on what happens, we may not be able to cover the V8 market, or this may take the form of having a closely related ECU where changing over to an M60 would require sending your ECU back to our shop to have a few components changed out. I'm not sure how this would play out. So far, I've pinned out one M62 application, and it was very close to the OBD1 design.

    A worst case might be that one of these could be run on a V8 with a wasted spark type coil pack and major rewiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    how will the unused I/O's be handled? DB connector on the side of the case?
    Close. The MSPNP Gen 2s used a D-sub connector for the extra I/O, but we think MSPNP Pro customers will prefer if we spring for something a bit more polished. This will most likely use a connector similar to OEM Japanese ECUs. The only D-subs you will see on an MSPNP Pro are for the tuning cable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    have you guys considered just making a small jumper harness? Using your BOB. Thats how AEM infinity and ECU masters does it. There could be some advantages like cost, the ability for the end user to be able to add and move pins, allows use of the standard 3.57 or pro box...

    The coil drivers could easily be added in the BOB

    The only issues i see are being able to support the OBD2 cam sensor (if it does take a hardware change), and switching the factory main relay (but hardware to do so could also fit in the BOB box.)

    Just spit ballin here
    Integrating the adapter into a PCB takes a little more R&D work, but brings down per-unit costs significantly, both ours and yours. The adapter harnesses take a good deal more labor to assemble and test. I suspect the reason that AEM and ECU Master USA take the harness approach is that they don't build their ECUs in house; AEM buys the Infinity from Engine Labs, and ECU Master USA imports their units from ECU Master headquarters in Eastern Europe, then they (probably) build the adapter harnesses in house or at a local contract manufacturer. Whereas we use a contract manufacturer that's literally only a few miles down the road to handle the initial surface mount work, then finish the units by hand at our shop - that gives us a bit more flexibility in creating new variants.
    Matt Cramer
    1997 BMW 328i convertible, 1972 Chevy C10 pickup, 1966 Dodge Dart slant six
    BMW - where "Why doesn't everybody build cars the way they do?" meets "Why can't they build a car the same way everyone else does it?"

  17. #17
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    In my case, I have an Eboost2 and Aquamist direct port meth + pre throttle meth.
    I would like to continue to allow these 2 units to "do their thing".
    Boost control is on the fly can can't be faster with the Eboost2. Also, the Aquamist system seems quite elaborate and not sure I would want to start trying to control that at first.
    How will the MS react to a meth kit that is not controlled by the MS ? Will it see the added fuel and pull fuel ?
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
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  18. #18
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    M52 base map? Will that be ok to get me started on my s52?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    In my case, I have an Eboost2 and Aquamist direct port meth + pre throttle meth.
    I would like to continue to allow these 2 units to "do their thing".
    Boost control is on the fly can can't be faster with the Eboost2. Also, the Aquamist system seems quite elaborate and not sure I would want to start trying to control that at first.
    How will the MS react to a meth kit that is not controlled by the MS ? Will it see the added fuel and pull fuel ?

    Its going to depend on how you tune it and how you have the EGO correction. I assume that your only spraying about a certain PSI, in which case you would just tune the map to accommodate in those areas. Also keep in mind if your system has a "fault" wire, you can do a couple of neat things with it, like tableswitch back to waste gate pressure, or possibly set a CEL.

    I would for 100% run the boost control through the MS. Its an integrated system that has so many possibilities, and its control over the solenoid is incroporated into so many other functions like traction control, launch control, gear based boost, ect.

    And all you need is a 40$ "Mac" solenoid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    M52 base map? Will that be ok to get me started on my s52?
    It wont matter because you define a couple vital things of your setup. 1.Engine size, 2. injector size, and a couple other things. Your required fuel will change when you input the correct displacement of the engine.

    The important things, like trigger settings and sensor types will remain the same for the engines.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    M52 base map? Will that be ok to get me started on my s52?
    As Dburt said you will just change the "req fuel" setting when you first set it up. A VE table for an M52 and an S52 will only be a rather small percentage off so it will just require minor road tuning to bring the AFR in line. Once you get used to it, it only takes 15 minutes or so to road tune a VE table.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    In my case, I have an Eboost2 and Aquamist direct port meth + pre throttle meth.
    I would like to continue to allow these 2 units to "do their thing".
    Boost control is on the fly can can't be faster with the Eboost2. Also, the Aquamist system seems quite elaborate and not sure I would want to start trying to control that at first.
    How will the MS react to a meth kit that is not controlled by the MS ? Will it see the added fuel and pull fuel ?
    If you prefer not to pull any fuel when the meth is on you would just set the 02 sensor correction to only be active under the boost threshold where your meth turns on. If you rely on the meth system and always have it on then you would just tune the VE table to the AFR's that you want when meth is on. The ECU won't no any difference just like the stock ECU. If you do set the 02 correction to work under full boost and the meth system fails or a nozzle clogs, the 02 correction will attempt to add fuel to make up for the missing meth.

    If your happy with the Eboost just leave it as is. You can always try the megasquirt boost control in the future.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for the people asking about using a MAF sensor, in my opinion most people will be better off without it. There are some advantages to tuning with a MAF, but you also have the disadvantage of having to source a higher flow maf than stock, having to have it mounted in charge pipe, possibility of oil getting on it from the turbo, sensitivity to boost leaks, ect... For most people you will be better off just using the map sensor provided.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S472sxe, MS3pro Ultimate, e85, solid rear axle, 4 link, spool, TH400 trans, Protorque converter, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties
    Best = 9.43 @ 149.15 mph, 1.30 60 foot 28 psi boost

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    As Dburt said you will just change the "req fuel" setting when you first set it up. A VE table for an M52 and an S52 will only be a rather small percentage off so it will just require minor road tuning to bring the AFR in line. Once you get used to it, it only takes 15 minutes or so to road tune a VE table. - -.
    Thanks I thought it was something like that. I knew they tune themselves once you set the parameters. Didn't realize the m/s52 tables were that close. Short of putting in a bigger turbo and everything that requires, it feels like I've maxed out what I can do to the e36 chassis. This will be fun. I can probably use it on a couple future projects I have on the shelf.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    As for the people asking about using a MAF sensor, in my opinion most people will be better off without it. There are some advantages to tuning with a MAF, but you also have the disadvantage of having to source a higher flow maf than stock, having to have it mounted in charge pipe, possibility of oil getting on it from the turbo, sensitivity to boost leaks, ect... For most people you will be better off just using the map sensor provided.
    I agree here, just on the fact that maf tuning on MS is a bit tricky if you are new to the standalone game. The dialling in of the transfer table is somewhat time consuming. I initially set my ms up on MAP to get going and once I understood how the maf tuning works I went ahead and switched.

    I run a PMAS HPX-E (extended range sensor) similar to the blow-through mafs TRM, RK etc offer. It's VERY durable. I sucked in water on two occasions and it killed my sensor for my boost gauge but the maf just needed to be sprayed down with maf cleaner it was good to go again. I have very tiny bit of oil in my charge pipes and it doesn't skew things so in a turbo app once you go with the right maf there are no real issues.

    If anyone is willing to tackle maf tuning again I'm willing to help those who want to learn, as there's a chance I may be the only turbo BMW running a maf sensor on a standalone that I know of. Having run my car on both MAP and MAF, in my experience MAF comes out on top slightly in terms of drivability.
    Last edited by e30kid89; 06-03-2016 at 02:38 PM.

  23. #23
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    I've been doing some quick reading. Speed density relies on an accurate air temp reading. I'm using the s52 IAT in my m50 intake. I modified it so it would screw into the threaded hole that the obd1 sensor occupied. Is that stock obd2 sensor good enough?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    I've been doing some quick reading. Speed density relies on an accurate air temp reading. I'm using the s52 IAT in my m50 intake. I modified it so it would screw into the threaded hole that the obd1 sensor occupied. Is that stock obd2 sensor good enough?
    As long as you have the thermistor tables for the obd2 IAT sensor it'll work just fine.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30kid89 View Post

    As long as you have the thermistor tables for the obd2 IAT sensor it'll work just fine.
    They should. As this will be PnP. I think I want to add a second IAT sensor and blend them if I can.
    1996 332IS
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    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
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    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
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