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Thread: Need BF.C's collective help on my rattle issue

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
    The M50 guys fixed their issues by putting the late style VANOS plates and spring...

    EVeryone else just seems to live with the noise or goes to a mechanic and they say it's normal.

    I can't see how this noise is normal, it just sounds plain ugly.

    Also I'm not convinced that it doesn't actually do anything performance wise... Maybe not at WOT, but at PT in certain areas of the map I can feel and see the car hesitate/jerk around and my MAP sensor confirms it. I believe it has to do with the state of the engagement of the VANOS... if it's just starting to engage, etc.

    The vanos plates are what I mean by "shims"

  2. #52
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    May 2013
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    E30 M50B28 Turbo
    I have a gravely noise but only at idle. Pretty sure the sound is coming from the VANOS area, but it goes away when I bring up the rpms. My VANOS is rebuilt with the BEISAN but has no Belleville spring washer, so I figured it is probably related to that. The main chain tensioner is the later M3 unit.
    1989 E30 - M50B28 Turbo - ZF 8 Speed

  3. #53
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    1993 325is
    So mine still does it. Chikinhed's weld up of my timing cover certainly fixed that for me, and I had to replace the right side chain guide which had been smashed into little bits and was in the oil pan along with the upper guide pin which had obviously vibrated loose at some point and also dropped into the pan. But replacing all those parts and restoring the timing chain environment did not correct my "death rattle". I have had that noise for about 17,000 miles now (a little over 2 years) on my built NA motor that sees 7,800 in the lower gears from time to time.

    I replaced all the Vanos bits (new intake chain sprocket, new camshaft gear, rebuilt a different Vanos unit with anti rattle spring and new bearing sanded to size) and none of this resolved it. When I put a stethoscope to the motor, the noise is loudest right on the Vanos solenoid and the valve cover nuts closest to the Vanos intake area. As soon as I move away from that area, the noise more or less vanishes (with the stethoscope). I have welded/reground cams from Web and then thought that might be doing it. I also had "wonky" cam timing so thought that might be the case. I have since reset the cam timing to something more reasonable, noise still there.

    However, I DO have Supertech springs, 1mm over valves and retainers. I do not know what weight springs they are as I bought the head used with the parts already installed. I wonder if that is the "key"? Springs too stiff?






  4. #54
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    I'd say it's probably the stiffer springs resonant frequency at that rpm range and the backlash of the three Vanos gears.

    I noticed an increase in noise after installing the 85 lb Supertechs in my engine. I too swapped in new gears, Vanos and tensioners with only a minor change to the rattle. Jaker's rattle is much louder than mine, maybe the aluminum block amplifies it?

    Sent from my GTX3582R
    '97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chikinhed View Post
    I'd say it's probably the stiffer springs resonant frequency at that rpm range and the backlash of the three Vanos gears.

    I noticed an increase in noise after installing the 85 lb Supertechs in my engine. I too swapped in new gears, Vanos and tensioners with only a minor change to the rattle. Jaker's rattle is much louder than mine, maybe the aluminum block amplifies it?

    Sent from my GTX3582R
    This is what I have been saying. Mine does it too. Only after adding stiffer springs/valves and such.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post

    This is what I have been saying. Mine does it too. Only after adding stiffer springs/valves and such.
    Any chance the wrong primary tensioner is being used? There are a few variations and I think the M3 version has a different PN.

    There is also a specific torque spec for the shim plate stack. Not sure everyone is using a 1/4 drive torque wrench to get an accurate result there. Those stud nuts get blue loctite.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakermac View Post
    So mine still does it.
    Wow I have no idea what that noise is, but that sounds nothing like what I am experiencing.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
    Wow I have no idea what that noise is, but that sounds nothing like what I am experiencing.
    In all fairness, that 3rd video was taken while the right side timing chain guide sat in the oil pan in a hundred pieces so that was quite a bit louder than the actual original problem that surfaced in 1st start up after the engine build. And as Chikinhed mentioned, my block is aluminum so the sounds/resonances are probably different/louder.
    Last edited by jakermac; 05-20-2016 at 10:11 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakermac View Post
    In all fairness, that 3rd video was taken while the right side timing chain guide sat in the oil pan in a hundred pieces so that was quite a bit louder than the actual original problem that surfaced in 1st start up after the engine build.
    I was talking about the 1st vid in this case. Either way, I don't think you have the same issue I have.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post

    This is what I have been saying. Mine does it too. Only after adding stiffer springs/valves and such.
    I had the 85# super tech dual valve springs in my old engine (made the noise) and same springs in new engine (doesn't make noise)

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajicase View Post
    I had the 85# super tech dual valve springs in my old engine (made the noise) and same springs in new engine (doesn't make noise)
    That's because it's not the springs.

  12. #62
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    I know. I was responding to some people who think it is.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajicase View Post
    I know. I was responding to some people who think it is.
    I know, so was I lol

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajicase View Post
    I know. I was responding to some people who think it is.
    The some people that think it might be, have been around the block for some time.
    Supertech springs are way tighter than stock. When those valves are closing, they are slamming shut when that cam lobe allows them too.
    Although I haven't heard his noise, mine has surely gotten louder after the head was built.
    Last edited by Butters Stoch; 05-20-2016 at 03:12 PM.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    The some people that think it might be, have been around the block for some time.
    Supertech springs are way tighter than stock. When those valves are closing, they are slamming shut when that cam lobe allows them too.
    Although I haven't heard his noise, mine has surely gotten louder after the head was built.
    Increased valvetrain noise is one thing and generally very, very mild... none of the noises in any of the videos here are indicative of anything related to adding uprated valve springs.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post

    Increased valvetrain noise is one thing and generally very, very mild... none of the noises in any of the videos here are indicative of anything related to adding uprated valve springs.
    What videos ?
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  17. #67
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    I'm starting to think it's more and more likely that the force on the closing ramp of the cams is causing a torsional resonance in the cam and the sound is coming from the lash between the vanos splines.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post

    The some people that think it might be, have been around the block for some time.
    Supertech springs are way tighter than stock. When those valves are closing, they are slamming shut when that cam lobe allows them too.
    Although I haven't heard his noise, mine has surely gotten louder after the head was built.
    Just stating my experience with both this noise and the Supertech springs. Not trying to step on toes.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    What videos ?
    any of the video's posted in this thread.

  20. #70
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    Do you feel anything when you put your hand on the front of the valve cover? That engine almost sounds like a damn M20! Also, I know we are diving into valve springs and what not, but I would also make sure that everything is bolted down around that general area....any bolts missing? Fuel rail bolted down? Spark plugs torque'd?
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    Do you feel anything when you put your hand on the front of the valve cover? That engine almost sounds like a damn M20! Also, I know we are diving into valve springs and what not, but I would also make sure that everything is bolted down around that general area....any bolts missing? Fuel rail bolted down? Spark plugs torque'd?
    Yes you can feel and hear the rattle/noise on the front of the VC.

    I know it's hard to understand someone explaining these types of noises over the internet... But the noise is constrained to the front of the intake cam/vanos area as best I can tell. Something there is rattling... chain, VANOS shims/spring, VANOS, mesh gear, tensioner... something...

    And the more and more I realize that the way my car runs changes with the noise and temps, etc... verifies it's something with the cam(s).

    Unfortunately all the VANOS parts are quite expensive and I hate just "throwing darts" and parts at something I don't understand. I'm just not sure what else there is to do about it.

    I'm still seriously considering to cut open a spare VC so I can watch what's going on in there while it's running.

  22. #72
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    ^^Thatd be super cool

  23. #73
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    Can you record a video of the sound your car is making Notorious? I'm curious if it's similar to my noise. I'd post one of mine but I'm currently not running.

  24. #74
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    Fyi
    Quote Originally Posted by boosted e30 View Post
    can you record a video of the sound your car is making notorious? I'm curious if it's similar to my noise. I'd post one of mine but i'm currently not running.
    Quote Originally Posted by notorious vr View Post
    found a video of an s52 that is quiet enough for you to hear the noise (mine sounds just about like that):
    Last edited by BlackHawkRacing; 05-25-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  25. #75
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    AA turbo 332i
    I have this as well, idle-2.5k rattles when warm and it's annoying as heck, especially on a 12k mile rebuilt engine!! Rebuild my vanos twice and have another low mileage vanos unit + newer style gear plate/shim waiting to go on.

    Maybe I missed it but are your timing/vanos chains new? I'm thinking in my case the 220k mile (overall) chains may have stretched and I should probably get new ones.

    1995 325i | OBD1 S52 | S50 cams | AA Turbo TD06 20g / 42lb / Porsche maf | .140 MLS | F1 s3 clutch | Ultimate SSK | AKG 75D subframe/diff bushings | 3.23 LSD | Powerflex LCAB/RTAB | e46 fca | Raceland coils | BMP rear arms | DEPO HID | AEM Failsafe | Aeromotive FPR | Walbo 255 | 3" Magnaflow muffler/cat/res | 17x8.5/9.5" 225/45 & 255/40

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