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Thread: 350whp fr S50B32?

  1. #26
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    I got 305-310whp on 110 octane out of my S50B30 with the following modifications: Balanced and Blueprinted top and bottom end. Cylinder head port and polish. 87.5mm oversize pistons with 11.5.1 compression ratio. Group N DME. Supersprint Headers and 3" exhaust with Borla race muffler.

    Currently building a S50B32, that will run single vanos, with Motorsports Group A pistons, Carillo Rods, Group A camshafts, shim under bucket lifters. Expecting to get 360-380whp out of this motor.

  2. #27
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    The power advantage may lie in the fact that most standalone system have less correction factors and safety systems over MSS54, i.e. They are less likely to pull back timing in a number of cases.

    Otherwise you should get about the same power out of them as you say.

    Advantage of a standalone system is that they often allow for live tuning, which makes it easier then writing software, flashing, redyno, write software, flash and redyno etc.

    You can do live tuning on a MSS54 DME but it requires desoldering the memory chips and soldering in a emulator.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by =BA= View Post
    The power advantage may lie in the fact that most standalone system have less correction factors and safety systems over MSS54, i.e. They are less likely to pull back timing in a number of cases.

    Otherwise you should get about the same power out of them as you say.

    Advantage of a standalone system is that they often allow for live tuning, which makes it easier then writing software, flashing, redyno, write software, flash and redyno etc.

    You can do live tuning on a MSS54 DME but it requires desoldering the memory chips and soldering in a emulator.
    The correction factors and safety systems can be disabled on the MSS54(HP), if you so desire (I do not, unless the hardware backs it up-- e.g. I bumped up the acceptable EGT temps before it enriches it (to protect the cats) because I have HJS race cats that are desgined to function at higher temps.

    Live tuning is a benefit, I suppose, but switching to an aftermarket ecu to avoid that hassle seems like more work than the slightly longer tuning process-- especially with MSSflasher doing writes crazy fast compared to previous systems (and letting you rest the flash limit with a click).

  4. #29
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    I realize that, but how many tuning company's actually really know their business when it comes to MSS54? Most can tweak a few maps but when you start digging deeper into MSS54 parameters, most simply don't know this and are not willing to put in the time.

    Most simply alter a few maps and be done with it.

    I just recently went through a episode of software tuning with my MSS54 standalone install and for that money that has set me back it would have paid for a nice standalone install. And that was with a discount. But admittedly, the company who originally set it up in the first place made a total mess out of it, the oxygen sensor wiring was messed up and the software was total crap. We wiped it all and started off with a total stock file.

    But then again, when it comes to standalones there is not a whole lot of people who can tune that properly either. It's one thing to get the simple things right, A/F under WOT etc, but correction factors and things like acceleration enrichment are often not tuned properly. So while the hardware is there many times the tuning on a standalone is so so as well.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by =BA= View Post
    I realize that, but how many tuning company's actually really know their business when it comes to MSS54? Most can tweak a few maps but when you start digging deeper into MSS54 parameters, most simply don't know this and are not willing to put in the time.

    Most simply alter a few maps and be done with it.

    I just recently went through a episode of software tuning with my MSS54 standalone install and for that money that has set me back it would have paid for a nice standalone install. And that was with a discount. But admittedly, the company who originally set it up in the first place made a total mess out of it, the oxygen sensor wiring was messed up and the software was total crap. We wiped it all and started off with a total stock file.

    But then again, when it comes to standalones there is not a whole lot of people who can tune that properly either. It's one thing to get the simple things right, A/F under WOT etc, but correction factors and things like acceleration enrichment are often not tuned properly. So while the hardware is there many times the tuning on a standalone is so so as well.
    4-5 years ago and before, there was VERY few tuners that could properly tune the MSS5X(hp). These days, though, the entire thing has been publicly reverse engineered, and the purpose (and location) of every map is available to anyone.
    (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=423771).

    In no way does that guarantee a good tune (that depends on having a good tuner), but there's no reason an equally competent tuner should be any better off tuning on a standalone than the MSS5X.

    But, yeah... in either case you're at the mercy of having a competent tuner and properly set up hardware.

  6. #31
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    I know of that thread (read all 500+ pages), but it is not easy to get a 100% filled out XDF file. I made my own from info over there for S50B32 and S54. Not 100% populated but enough to tune it.

    One other reason to run standalone by the way is nowadays a lot of them can perform closed loop Alpha N with dual wideband sensors instead of narrowband. You simply fill out a AFR target and the ECU does the rest.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by =BA= View Post
    I know of that thread (read all 500+ pages), but it is not easy to get a 100% filled out XDF file. I made my own from info over there for S50B32 and S54. Not 100% populated but enough to tune it.

    One other reason to run standalone by the way is nowadays a lot of them can perform closed loop Alpha N with dual wideband sensors instead of narrowband. You simply fill out a AFR target and the ECU does the rest.
    There actually is a community made XDF file-- it just has been publicly released yet.

    Completely agreed on the wideband end.
    (though that shouldn't make the engine make more power, just make it easier to get there, in NA applications anyway)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
    ...I do have the benefit of launch control and a very sophisticated traction control setup both of which were never available on an e36 evo setup.
    Not entirely turn. Not both. The Evo had available BMW's first SMG gearbox. This also gave you a launch control option, or Race Start as it's called in the manual. Of course we are talking 20 year old tech, so it's not super fancy, but it's launch control nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
    ...Launch control can be done on the MSS54HP, but it's pretty terrible (as in, it just set a rev limit a 0 mph so you can floor it and modulate with clutch-- there's zero matching of power output to available traction to maximize acceleration). So, yeah, I'd agree that's a benefit to standalone.
    Not sure if any better, but what about the race start/ burn out launch control mode? Here it doesn't modulate the clutch. Well that's probably worse as the modulating is there to have some traction. But if that isn't even all that.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MParallel View Post
    Not entirely turn. Not both. The Evo had available BMW's first SMG gearbox. This also gave you a launch control option, or Race Start as it's called in the manual. Of course we are talking 20 year old tech, so it's not super fancy, but it's launch control nonetheless.



    Not sure if any better, but what about the race start/ burn out launch control mode? Here it doesn't modulate the clutch. Well that's probably worse as the modulating is there to have some traction. But if that isn't even all that.
    I thought he meant 6mt launch control. SMG2 launch control is pretty good with csl software.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
    I thought he meant 6mt launch control. SMG2 launch control is pretty good with csl software.
    Oh ok. No idea. Never heard of any mt launch control. To me that would be the driver dumping the clutch. How else would the clutch otherwise be modulated it not SMG?

    Or are you talking about the E36 Evo now?

    Well anyways, my reply would be the same. How would it be launch controle with a mt?

    EDIT: well re-reading what JimE said...hmm does sound like he's saying he has launch control on his E36. I read it like no launch control was available for the E36 at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
    ...I can even get BMW Motorsport parts though those aren't as easy to get unless you know where to get them. ...
    I've always wondered about this. I have to .pdf files. With the BMW E36 Group A and Group N parts. I really wonder what numbers you'd be looking at if you would built an S50B32 with either of these "set".

    Not mentioning you would need a bucketload of money just to get these parts, if even still available.
    Last edited by MParallel; 11-21-2016 at 07:42 PM.
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  11. #36
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    You can order BMW Motorsport parts through the regular dealer. But they just need to send the order form to BMW Motorsport not the regular parts outlet.

    As for launch control. I would not exactly call launch control on a E36 SMG a proper launch control as all it does is let go of the clutch at a slower rate while it lets you modulate the throttle yourself. There is no traction control or modulation whatsoever. Actually I find it pretty useless. All it does is burn your clutch.

    I have had proper launch control on a S50B30 once, from racelogic and that is miles better. It cuts ignition to control power to the wheels to maximize acceleration.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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  12. #37
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    Yes it's basically a computerized clutchdump. Not sure on the slow rate though. I don't use it myself as I don't want to wear the clutch more than necessarily, but a friend with an SMG1 demonstrated the function in his car and it was a hell of a launch.

    IIRC it used the ABS sensors to detect wheelspin.
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  13. #38
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    No it doesn't modulate anything at all. Except for the clutch coming up slower. The few times I tried it I just made 2 20 meter long black marks or so. It lets you do everything you want, if you want to dump the clutch at 6000 RPM go ahead.

    With 3.62 gears its even more useless as it will just spin the wheels when you floor it in first gear, without the LC function.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by =BA= View Post
    No it doesn't modulate anything at all. Except for the clutch coming up slower. The few times I tried it I just made 2 20 meter long black marks or so. It lets you do everything you want, if you want to dump the clutch at 6000 RPM go ahead.

    With 3.62 gears its even more useless as it will just spin the wheels when you floor it in first gear, without the LC function.
    Clutch coming up slower seems contra intuitive to me...?

    According to the manual, using the LC as discribed in the owner's manual. It engages the clutch at 4k.
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  15. #40
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    The idea is that you keep the engine just above torque peak at 4000 RPM, let out the clutch slowly and build throttle in a fluid motion. The tires need a moment to grab thats why the slower clutch.

    Dragracers do it all the time, they modulate the power to the wheels with the clutch on launch rather than with the throttle.

    If you were to just relase the clutch at 4K like sidestepping it, it would simply light up the tires.
    E36 M3 S50B32 daily - E36 M3 S54 trackcar

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