350whp fr S50B32?

[moupe54]

Hey all you euro s50 guys.
i'm a noobie engine builder from the us with a z3 m coupe in need of an s50b32. aiming for 350hp, planned on doing carbon airbox, tune, cams, exhaust, headers and possibly a 3.4 stroker kit. would this bring it to 350 (to the wheels). thanks everyone

[SPhilly28]

If you have a healthy budget you should get there. The tuning will be key.

[Jim E.]

Hey all you euro s50 guys.
i'm a noobie engine builder from the us with a z3 m coupe in need of an s50b32. aiming for 350hp, planned on doing carbon airbox, tune, cams, exhaust, headers and possibly a 3.4 stroker kit. would this bring it to 350 (to the wheels). thanks everyone

Very easily but it will not be cheap. To start, you will need a full standalone, motorsport headers, motorsport cams, motorsport GTR crank, CSL carbon intake and a multitude of other items. If you need help getting these parts I can point you in the right direction.

As mentioned, proper tuning is key and you will not get there by hacking the OE ecu or alpha whatever....

If you're goal is to get close to S65 hp, then you gotta pay to play.

A final word of caution. "Noobie engine builder" does not play well with building a high hp S50B32 or other high hp BMW engines. Not really sure what you mean by "noobie."

Good luck.

[digger]

the important bit is the cylinder head and cams followed by induction/exhaust size and lengths.... tuning will be the easy part there are so many solutions and tuners these days if you go aftermarket. it isnt hard to make WOT power either but getting good light load and low rpm driveabilty, reliable starting, warmup etc sorts the good from bad especially with an aggressive setup that can bring some nasties with it if wrong parts are used

[FIN]

Is it any worth to go with following setup with my E36 M3 with S50B32:
- Geoff Steel GF Airbox with K&N Universal airfilter. 600£
- Stock headers with DIY stainless 2 x 2.25'' to Y joint 3.0'' catless mid pipe with one resonator and straight trough muffler. materials 250€ + lot of my time
- Alpha N software aka removing air flow meter and remap. 600- 800€

Many tuners promise 345hp at crank (about 320 rwhp?) from totally stock S50B32, so would it be too optimistic to try get 360hp with those mods or should I just save up 7k€ for quality SC kit for S50B32 on future (which should enable 450hp on otherwise stock engine with recommended ARP studs and performance head gasket)?

Not interested taking NA engine to apart to polish head for 1-4hp and all the cams I`ve seen seem to ruin S50B32 awesome torque curve.

[Jim E.]

Is it any worth to go with following setup with my E36 M3 with S50B32:
- Geoff Steel GF Airbox with K&N Universal airfilter. 600£
- Stock headers with DIY stainless 2 x 2.25'' to Y joint 3.0'' catless mid pipe with one resonator and straight trough muffler. materials 250€ + lot of my time
- Alpha N software aka removing air flow meter and remap. 600- 800€

Many tuners promise 345hp at crank (about 320 rwhp?) from totally stock S50B32, so would it be too optimistic to try get 360hp with those mods or should I just save up 7k€ for quality SC kit for S50B32 on future (which should enable 450hp on otherwise stock engine with recommended ARP studs and performance head gasket)?

Not interested taking NA engine to apart to polish head for 1-4hp and all the cams I`ve seen seem to ruin S50B32 awesome torque curve.

Don't waste your money. You will get nowhere near 360.

To get any kind of worthwhile hp, at the very least you will need a proper CSL carbon box made for the S50B32, something bigger than the stock headers with a proper crossover (NOT SS) and most important, a real standalone engine management system.

[FIN]

Don't waste your money. You will get nowhere near 360.

To get any kind of worthwhile hp, at the very least you will need a proper CSL carbon box made for the S50B32, something bigger than the stock headers with a proper crossover (NOT SS) and most important, a real standalone engine management system.

Well I thought that Geoff Steels CF box is quite proper. Fiberglass replica of Evolves version would be better (this is what I see rally guys using in Finland a lot in s50b30 euro motors)?

Also only non custom header kit seller for euro s50b30/b32 is Supersprint and its giving only +8-10hp and losing lots of low/mid torque pretty much same way as with shrick cams (+ it cost shit ton of money for being only headers)

But yea... I´ll just save up my money for newer/more powerful car or go with SC kit in couple of years if I´m wanting more than stock 320hp.

I´m still gonna do that ss catless midpipe and rear exhaust for lighter weight (stock euro mid and rear exhaust weights something like 40kg) and to get more sound!

[kovrol]

Firstly, I can't imagine how is everybody calculating WHP to BHP, but if speak about 345BHP then its "only" 286WHP and not 320WHP. There is mostly around 16-17% drivertain loss, you just have to you elementary school maths.
If you think about 3.4L stroker then buy VAC motorsports kit, approx 7-8k USD if I remember well.
SS header and CSL or MAC carbon airbox (not fiberglass shit) is a must for that kit and a proper tune with a standalone ECU.

[digger]

there isn't much difference between the s54B32 and s50b32 so what mods work for one will work for the other. the big difference is the availability of aftermarket parts (including tunes) and knowledge base as there are more s54b32 out there but its a minor road block if you explore forums with european members
also the material of the airbox is less important than the actual shape of it. fiberglass ends up being heavier and not as pretty, sound as nice but functionally they will be the same if the design is the same

[=BA=]

there isn't much difference between the s54B32 and s50b32 so what mods work for one will work for the other. the big difference is the availability of aftermarket parts (including tunes) and knowledge base as there are more s54b32 out there but its a minor road block if you explore forums with european members
also the material of the airbox is less important than the actual shape of it. fiberglass ends up being heavier and not as pretty, sound as nice but functionally they will be the same if the design is the same

Actually there is substantial differences.

While the numbers look very similar on both engines stock, ie 260 cams and 60-45 VANOS sweep angles, the inner workings are somewhat different.

S54B32 has bigger intake and exhaust ports for starters and is better suited for flow at higher RPM. In fact it actually uses the electronic throttle at lower RPM's to increase driveability (doesn't open fully until about 3500 RPM, to increase gas speed through the inlet ports) If you want to make big power, S54 is the best starting point.

There is only a few people that I know of that actually know how to tune a S50B32 properly when it comes to highly modified engines, unless you swap to aftermarket managment.

As for S54, the standard managment is much better suited to applications without MAF due to the internal base map.

I have found for example that exhaust mods don't generally do too much for S50 engines where they do actually give you more power on S54 engines.

However, as for tuning strategy both generally favor the same, ie most tuners advance the inlet cam to increase valve overlap in the upper RPM band and work off that.

[Vitesse M]

Just out of curiosity have you sourced a motor yet?

[digger]

Actually there is substantial differences.

While the numbers look very similar on both engines stock, ie 260 cams and 60-45 VANOS sweep angles, the inner workings are somewhat different.

S54B32 has bigger intake and exhaust ports for starters and is better suited for flow at higher RPM. In fact it actually uses the electronic throttle at lower RPM's to increase driveability (doesn't open fully until about 3500 RPM, to increase gas speed through the inlet ports) If you want to make big power, S54 is the best starting point.

There is only a few people that I know of that actually know how to tune a S50B32 properly when it comes to highly modified engines, unless you swap to aftermarket managment.

As for S54, the standard managment is much better suited to applications without MAF due to the internal base map.

I have found for example that exhaust mods don't generally do too much for S50 engines where they do actually give you more power on S54 engines.

However, as for tuning strategy both generally favor the same, ie most tuners advance the inlet cam to increase valve overlap in the upper RPM band and work off that.

Im talking from a fundamental perspective. the heads flow about the same out of the box, yes of course there is more to it than flow as port CSA, layout and valve sizes matter but those differences are pretty minor not like S52b32 vs S50b32 or anything that extreme. The valve lifts from aftermarket cams available are not dissimilar. There are good airboxes for both. With exhaust there is very little aftermarket products for the s50. no doubt the S54 is a better prospect but follow the same recipe to what works on it and apply it s50b32 has very close to the same potential. If you are talking minor mods the s54 is better as there are so many options out there and what works and what doesn’t is widely known, yet there is very little data on the s50.

[moupe54]

So sorry i haven't answered these comments after giving such great feedback. Right now where i stand is i have sourced an s50b32 in north america, which i will be buying around winter time. I happen to get an absolutely insane deal on this engine. me and the guy selling it became great friends and he decided to help me out buy selling me the engine for $3,000 with e46 m3 6 speed trans. the engine is all there except missing the entire intake manifold. this doesn't bother me too much because i will be getting a carbon airbox to substitute most of the components, but i will still need the throttle bodies. with getting the engine so cheap, it leaves my budget for mods pretty high. So far realistic mods the motor will undergo are carbon airbox, 287 shrick cams, port and polished head, titanium valve springs, ARP headstuds, custom headers and full exhaust, standalone and a tune. Things i am debating on still are e85 (na motors don't improve much from it), ltw piston and rods and a 3.4l stroker kit. Realizing my 350whp goal isnt very realistic, i decided to just dump my money into it and see how it goes. thanks everyone for the help.

[Nugs]

Apparently this made 378whp in a e30

Fully built S50B32 engine (E36 M3, 3.2litre) with PPM lightweight forged Pistons (12.5:1 CR), PPM rods, ACL race bearings, all ARP hardware, 1mm oversize valves (multi-angled), shim under bucket conversion, CatCams (P/N 1303315 - 303/293 degrees), VAC VANOS delete, Göke genuine carbon fibre CSL style air box. PWR custom radiator and oil coolerCustom fuel system including injectors, lines and pumpsHand fabricated custom exhaustMoTeC M130 ECU with flex-fuel capability

From a local for sale ad.

[MauiM3Mania]

Apparently this made 378whp in a e30

From a local for sale ad.

Posted on the net. Must be fact.

[Jim E.]

Apparently this made 378whp in a e30


From a local for sale ad.

Yes its possible to get that kind of power out of a 12.5:1 s50b32.

I wouldn't have used those exact components and it's probably not street friendly but thats another story.

[kovrol]

this race car had similar mods, the sound was insane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZfyQndbBc4

I bought an RMS SC kit for my S50B32 but I can't decide to go with it or sell it and build a 12.5:1 (with cams and lot of stuff) race/street engine (as my car 99% used on the street for fun).
These kind of engines do more then 400bhp in europe, so you can do it in the other side of the world too, but it will costs way more then build and S54 engine (I'm prefer S50 because of the sound )

- - - Updated - - -

this is an another fast race car, yes its low weight (cca 1100kg) and shorter diff and so on...but 8sec from 100 to 200kmh is awesome compared to the original 13sec. This car made the fastest E36 M3 lap time on the Hungaroring (1.50) that I've ever seen, yes its a pro car with pro driver and staff, but our local guys with self made stripped out race cars (like the red one above) made 2.05 only...you can feel the differance, especailly when you pushing down the 911GT3 RS race car from the track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRir6esbmFc

[morerevsm3]

Very easily but it will not be cheap. To start, you will need a full standalone, motorsport headers, motorsport cams, motorsport GTR crank, CSL carbon intake and a multitude of other items. If you need help getting these parts I can point you in the right direction.

As mentioned, proper tuning is key and you will not get there by hacking the OE ecu or alpha whatever....

If you're goal is to get close to S65 hp, then you gotta pay to play.

A final word of caution. "Noobie engine builder" does not play well with building a high hp S50B32 or other high hp BMW engines. Not really sure what you mean by "noobie."

Good luck.

stand alone is only part out of your list necessary, there are far better alternatives for everything else you listed, as digger said, headflow, cams, compression and e85 will get it there easily

[Jim E.]

My fully build S50B32 with all the items I mentioned above got me to just under 430 hp at the crank. Slight port polishing was all that was needed.

This is set up for street use on pump gas and has 11.5:1. No E85 etc....


I have more torque at 3800 rpm's than the maximum a factory S50B32 could produce at its peak.

There may be other ways to do it but I'll stick with my formula - as pricey as it was.

[=BA=]

If I was going to spend that kind of money I would always start with a S54 in this day and age.

That sort of power figures are simply attainable with off the shelf parts and tuning of the factory DME for that motor.

[Jim E.]

Nearly all the parts are "off the shelf" as in easily available and competitively priced. I can even get BMW Motorsport parts though those aren't as easy to get unless you know where to get them. The exception is the ECU as I needed a real standalone to get to the numbers I wanted. The factory S50 ecu is a weak link. The CSL carbon intake is needed to get to my numbers whether it's an S50 or S54.

[Obioban]

Nearly all the parts are "off the shelf" as in easily available and competitively priced. I can even get BMW Motorsport parts though those aren't as easy to get unless you know where to get them. The exception is the ECU as I needed a real standalone to get to the numbers I wanted. The factory S50 ecu is a weak link. The CSL carbon intake is needed to get to my numbers whether it's an S50 or S54.

It's cheaper for sure on the s54, though. As in, I'm putting down 361rwhp (SAE dynojet) with the stock ECU and the only internal part changed was the cams. And you can do it a LOT cheaper than I did it (e.g. I have an OEM CSL airbox, though it doesn't flow any better than the (good) $1500 replica CF boxes, which are commonly available for the s54).

Plus, BMW ecu means you're still plug in OBD2 compliant, if your state requires that-- so you can legally drive your car. Sweet feature

And there's very little you can't do with the MSS54hp these days that you can do with a standalone. MSS54 hp can have up to 7 maps (swappable on the fly), can data log, have a pit lane speed limiter, can be converted to work with a MAP sensor and higher res maps via CSL engine management (mine is) if your airbox doesn't works with MAFs, etc.

If someone is starting from scratch, the s54 seems like the wiser starting point.

[Jim E.]

It's cheaper for sure on the s54, though. As in, I'm putting down 361rwhp (SAE dynojet) with the stock ECU and the only internal part changed was the cams. And you can do it a LOT cheaper than I did it (e.g. I have an OEM CSL airbox, though it doesn't flow any better than the (good) $1500 replica CF boxes, which are commonly available for the s54).

Plus, BMW ecu means you're still plug in OBD2 compliant, if your state requires that-- so you can legally drive your car. Sweet feature

And there's very little you can't do with the MSS54hp these days that you can do with a standalone. MSS54 hp can have up to 7 maps (swappable on the fly), can data log, have a pit lane speed limiter, can be converted to work with a MAP sensor and higher res maps via CSL engine management (mine is) if your airbox doesn't works with MAFs, etc.

If someone is starting from scratch, the s54 seems like the wiser starting point.

Yes for the overwhelming majority, the S54 is the wi$er starting point.

As long as the replica CF box has similar volume to the CSL then yes. Though you can do a lot with the MSS54, real standalones will edge out a modified MSS54 in power. On the flip side there are other advantages that the MSS54 has for street use as you point out.

I do have the benefit of launch control and a very sophisticated traction control setup both of which were never available on an e36 evo setup.

[Obioban]

Yes for the overwhelming majority, the S54 is the wi$er starting point.

As long as the replica CF box has similar volume to the CSL then yes. Though you can do a lot with the MSS54, real standalones will edge out a modified MSS54 in power. On the flip side there are other advantages that the MSS54 has for street use as you point out.

I do have the benefit of launch control and a very sophisticated traction control setup both of which were never available on an e36 evo setup.

I haven't seen any evidence of a power benefit to a standalone over the MSS54HP (with a tuner who knows how to tune it)... nor can I think of any reason there should be.

MK60, especially with the ZCP/CSL software, is pretty good! A lot of 997 Porsche race cars retrofit the BMW's e46 MK60 because it gives them a competitive advantage. Though, as you point out, that's not stock on the e36, either.

Launch control can be done on the MSS54HP, but it's pretty terrible (as in, it just set a rev limit a 0 mph so you can floor it and modulate with clutch-- there's zero matching of power output to available traction to maximize acceleration). So, yeah, I'd agree that's a benefit to standalone.

[kovrol]

if you wanna hear some close to 400BHP S50B32 engine sound check out this red E36 M3 in my compilation from this weekend session at Hungaroring, it had 12.5:1 compression pistons, more then 300degree catcams vanos delete, costum exhaust 1pipe at the tail, schrick head internals, huge carbon airbox and so on...it was so sweet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEIg6WTNIAk