m62B44 engine rebuilding

[tptrsn]

I would be thinking more about the pistons than just the thermal expansion of the cylinder walls on our alusil blocks. What pistons are going in to this build, op?

The pistons are largely the same either way though. So my point was that clearances that are good with cast iron blocks may not be exactly right with an un-sleeved aluminum block. I know for sure that aluminum blocks makes a difference in terms of main bearing clearances and maintaining proper oil pressure, but those aluminum blocks had cast iron sleeves, so I can't steal any good info about piston to wall clearance or ring end gap from them.

[Kenny1958]

Well ....if saving the bore goes to plan I,ll pick up another oe piston and address the ring gap, as I really don't have a couple of grand to build the engine tbh.

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[Kenny1958]

By the way it looks as if I've high jacked this thread for which I'm sorry to the OP.. but it has stimulated debate and there doesn't seem to be much info on M62 rebuilds around.

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[wagons ho]

Piston clearances are definitely a bit loose. I can get an approximate, later today but I was going to do careful measuring before boring. Again I have found no spec. Ring gap at ten is a little tight, I'd like the .022 ish like Tptrsn said especially with no spec and boost.

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Since this thread is for rebuilding with plans for boost your input is great. Ring gap wasn't even a consideration yet.

[Kenny1958]

I have a few friends over here going the same way as me with the jaguar supercharger so all this info is helpful.
I do have the beisan vanos seals kit here and I think i should clean and service the head but should I spend time and money porting and polishing ?

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[auaq]

The pistons are largely the same either way though. So my point was that clearances that are good with cast iron blocks may not be exactly right with an un-sleeved aluminum block. I know for sure that aluminum blocks makes a difference in terms of main bearing clearances and maintaining proper oil pressure, but those aluminum blocks had cast iron sleeves, so I can't steal any good info about piston to wall clearance or ring end gap from them.

Found an interesting link here. It's long and will have to sit down and read all this stuff and find info on ring end gaps, but it's actually pretty cool stuff.

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/...nditioning.pdf

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Hope this may help as well.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/do...10-2008_18.pdf

[tptrsn]

auaq, I haven't looked at that second document yet, but the first one looks like it's going to be worth the read. Thanks!!

[JimLev]

Good info auaq, thanks.

[Plattus1000]

This is just a cool thread.

[Jahcure]

Following this with interest

[Plattus1000]

I have a few friends over here going the same way as me with the jaguar supercharger so all this info is helpful.
I do have the beisan vanos seals kit here and I think i should clean and service the head but should I spend time and money porting and polishing ?

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No. Do a valve job, 3 angle grind and resurface the faces but no more than a mm off or your timing covers will be hard to install.
Extrusion honing might be a good idea but port sizes are relatively the same as the gaskets so leave them alone and the smoothness of the inlet and exhaust channels is pretty decent, no real improvement for the $, sorry £ or €. Going with lighter rods, pistons and crank would be a better use of the cash.

In my opinion...

[Kenny1958]

I took my block to the engine engineering shop to show them the damage and got a price to reline all the bores for £800 so that's the route i'm gonna go.
I do however now have the dilemma of choosing aftermarket forged pistons and rods and as i'm not an engine builder i could do with some help making those decisions.
I have found a distributor in the UK for Carrillo & JE amongst others and a set of JE pistons from him will be around £1500 Which is a bit eye watering lol I also found rods made in Europe on ebay Here & Here i notice that the second link is for decompression rods and as mine will be a FI build should i be looking at these ?

[tptrsn]

Seems like Wiseco quoted me around $1200/£827 for a set of pistons for the M62b44. Of course you would have to add shipping and probably duties onto that I suppose. £1500 sounds pretty crazy expensive. Maybe check around for CP pistons also.

Oh, one more thing about rods: Many of us have found the Chinese H-beam rods to withstand extreme punishment, and the price is much more appealing. I have seen them on eBay in the UK recently (if you're considering Carrillo, this would save you a lot of money for rods that will probably function the same for you).

[Kenny1958]

If you have a link for the rods that would be great, i guess anything that has to come from the states is gonna be expensive landed here.

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[tptrsn]

The listing I think I was referring to was listed in British Pounds, but it was actually coming from Hong Kong, and is listed currently as out of stock.

However, here is another one that is about $10 more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181023133983...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I've recently received a set of coilovers from this company for my el cheapo eBay e36 build, and they appear extremely nice. I wouldn't hesitate to buy rods from them. But that's how I am.... Lol

EDIT: I just now looked at your link to the rods you were looking at, and they are probably comparable quality to the ones I linked here, but it seems that they are more expensive because good bolts aren't cheap. If you are getting custom pistons you can use stock length rods and have the piston dish spec'd out how you want it.

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If you have a link for the rods that would be great, i guess anything that has to come from the states is gonna be expensive landed here.

Probably true, but that price you're being given is REALLY high. If I were you I would call Wiseco and CP, and see what they have to say. Since you are sleeving the cylinders, there is no special technology needed in your pistons. Just some good quality forged pistons that will give you the compression ratio you want.

EDIT AGAIN: Seems that I'm having reading comprehension problems this morning... When you say that you are having the bores relined, what do you mean by that exactly? Simply an overbore and hone, or sleeving them with ferrous sleeves of some sort?

[wagons ho]

Also, if you are having sleeves installed, there is probably no room for an oversized piston. Remember the warning my machine shop gave me about structural weakness upon installing 8 sleeves. Block distortion will be high, with possible breakage. How much is shipping overseas for an engine?

[Kenny1958]

Yeah i was talking about having my block bored out to take the iron sleeves and using stock sized pistons.

[tptrsn]

Sleeving is pretty common for S62 engines, isn't it? If I understand correctly, they have the same bore spacing as the M62s, but with larger bore diameters.

[Mpowered02]

Very interested in seeing where this thread leads...some good discussion thus far. Subscribed...

[Kenny1958]

I've been thinking, how strong are the stock internals of the M62 ?

My other option is to have new liners installed then use the stock pistons and rods with new ring sets, and have the head worked on, along side of renewing the seals in the vanos. That would save me a considerable amount of money meaning that i will be able to use the car again this year lol.

[JimLev]

Don't forget to replace the vanos distribution unit on the front of both heads. That's the part the vanos solenoids screw into, they distribute oil to the vanos itself. BMW made a change after the '99 model year, they coated the inside with Teflon to prevent the 3 rings in the front of the intake cams from wearing grooves in the ID of the distribution unit.

Bore to bore spacing is pretty close now, I've got some pics I can dig up later.

[tptrsn]

My personal opinion is that the factory rods and pistons can handle making up to about 75ft-lbs of torque per cylinder if you control detonation and ring end butting. And when I say control it, I mean really control it!!! Most people really don't control it well, which requires doing obsessive plug reading with an otoscope, using good det cans, or both. Water/methanol injection does wonders.

You will need to be able to have full control of your ignition timing, and ideally you would want to reduce your compression ratio by use of thicker head gaskets at the very least. And colder plugs of course.

Having said that, I think you'll need a different style of ring for the factory pistons if you want to run them in cast iron cylinder liners. If you can find an appropriate ring, maybe you will be good.

Again personal opinion, I think the alusil cylinders are perfectly fine for boosting. So my curiosity is why you concluded that you need to sleeve the cylinders? Maybe there is a good block available somewhere that is accessible to you, rather than looking for a complete engine? The sleeving is the big money I would try to avoid spending.

If you go with all factory components though, and you open up the ring end gaps sufficiently, the only remaining trick is to reduce compression ratio. If you are going to run e85, you're probably all set if you can control timing. Alternatively, if you run water/methanol injection and can control your timing, you should be good to go too...

With a supercharger I would concentrate my head porting efforts on the exhaust side, and then run a very free flowing exhaust system, although people seem to say that the exhaust system doesn't matter so much with a centrifugal supercharger. I hypothesize that it's because the boost doesn't rise to a very significant level with those until the engine is well past peak efficiency. But that is also why they tend not to cause many engine failures.

Anyway, there you go, one guy's opinions! Lol

[wagons ho]

I agree with tptrsn. Remember you can use a 97-98 block when searching for an engine. Only difference in short block is valve notches in pistons. Which you could add to the non vanos short block while you open ring gap if everything is good enough to reuse. For a one and done, get the car running, engine repair, go stock internals. . Then save the scored block for the big build.

[Kenny1958]

Don't forget to replace the vanos distribution unit on the front of both heads. That's the part the vanos solenoids screw into, they distribute oil to the vanos itself. BMW made a change after the '99 model year, they coated the inside with Teflon to prevent the 3 rings in the front of the intake cams from wearing grooves in the ID of the distribution unit.

Bore to bore spacing is pretty close now, I've got some pics I can dig up later.

Thanks Jim that was the plan.

I have been researching stuff and these Russians went the extra mile doing there vanos rebuild i didn't see them use new distribution units though.

Watch from about 8.15

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My personal opinion is that the factory rods and pistons can handle making up to about 75ft-lbs of torque per cylinder if you control detonation and ring end butting. And when I say control it, I mean really control it!!! Most people really don't control it well, which requires doing obsessive plug reading with an otoscope, using good det cans, or both. Water/methanol injection does wonders.

You will need to be able to have full control of your ignition timing, and ideally you would want to reduce your compression ratio by use of thicker head gaskets at the very least. And colder plugs of course.

I'm already using colder plugs and if i just uprated the rods to these i could reduce compression and have newer rods ??

Having said that, I think you'll need a different style of ring for the factory pistons if you want to run them in cast iron cylinder liners. If you can find an appropriate ring, maybe you will be good.

Any suggestions for the type of rings to use with the standard pistons

Again personal opinion, I think the alusil cylinders are perfectly fine for boosting. So my curiosity is why you concluded that you need to sleeve the cylinders? Maybe there is a good block available somewhere that is accessible to you, rather than looking for a complete engine? The sleeving is the big money I would try to avoid spending.

There are no blocks available at this moment that don't have as much or similar mileage as my old one resleeving seems to be the best option even if it is gonna end up being £800.

If you go with all factory components though, and you open up the ring end gaps sufficiently, the only remaining trick is to reduce compression ratio. If you are going to run e85, you're probably all set if you can control timing. Alternatively, if you run water/methanol injection and can control your timing, you should be good to go too...

With a supercharger I would concentrate my head porting efforts on the exhaust side, and then run a very free flowing exhaust system, although people seem to say that the exhaust system doesn't matter so much with a centrifugal supercharger. I hypothesize that it's because the boost doesn't rise to a very significant level with those until the engine is well past peak efficiency. But that is also why they tend not to cause many engine failures.

I do plan to get new headers in the future and i wouldn't mind getting some newer and less restrictive cats to help things along.

Anyway, there you go, one guy's opinions! Lol

You are really helping me out with all this info and i appreciate it tremendously.

On the power run i did do on the dyno it made 360bhp and 439 ft/lb on a rich map so its worth it.

[Mach540]

Thanks Jim that was the plan.

I have been researching stuff and these Russians went the extra mile doing there vanos rebuild i didn't see them use new distribution units though.

Watch from about 8.15

This is kinda crazy. Last night I was "working" on cleaning up my garage, and I picked up the VANOS gears I scored a couple weeks ago and spent quite a while studying them in preparation for doing my VANOS in the near future. I had the thought that I could machine off the bent over lip to completely remove the internals, instead of doing the "stuff in the seals" thing Biesen came up with. Then, thread the O.D. of the housing, make a threaded cap to replace the lip, and whamo...... totally rebuilt VANOS........
And now...... While I should be continuing to clean my garage, I'm procrastinating again surfing BF.C, I see this video of EXACTLY that process..

This is something I would be very capable of doing, being a machinist with free access to the CNC machinery that could do it very quickly, once the programming and set-up is done. I am going to do this on my spare set of gears and see how it turns out. Would only take a day and we have plenty of material this size to play with. On Monday, I'm going to be building some custom tooling I've been working on out of 3" round 4140 steel, so I'll have the machine set up anyways.

Oh... one more "wild eyed" project that I'll start and probably never finish, though. Hopefully not. I still have my sandblasted style 32's sitting at the shop waiting to get powdercoated and custom machined.