Upping the Boost on my VF SC'd 540. Testing the Failure Limits of the Stock M62?

[mcgnms]

That is where he went WOT.

[RSBBlackM3]

16PSI on a M62, thats awesome, must feel like a bullet!

[philly98540]

1 bar on stock internals. Very nice.


Any reason there is no boost being made below 4K RPMs?

That's when I mashed the throttle. Boost is bypassed before that.

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16PSI on a M62, thats awesome, must feel like a bullet!

It's feels really good.

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That is where he went WOT.

Yup.

[angeleye540i]

M62 for president. Can take more pressure than any bigoted M5 can ever dream of.

I support this whatever is it...

Good job Philly that's turbo boost right there... Props well done etc. Keep it up

[mcgnms]

M62 for president! We're going to make this country great again. We're going to build forced induction and we're going to make Mercedes pay for it. They keep coming in and taking members of the bmw community out, and they all need to be sent back to Germany.

[JimLev]

They were maxed out at around 460 WHP

All I can say is holy crap this car is really fast now. Its a similar jump in power as going from the 3.8 down to the 3.25. The boost is hitting close to 16 psi now!! Lawdy lawdy second and third gear are really fun.

Wow, looks like more nitrous will be added.
Your car was really fast last fall when I drove it. Looks like I need to come down again, lol.

[Redshift]

You have a disease! That's sick. Look forward to Frank results.


Submitted via mobile device

[JimLev]

You have a disease! That's sick.

The nice thing is there is no cure for it.

[MisterM52]

Pictures of the second pulley please. And perhaps another video if you can to compliment it!

[geargrinder]

Cool stuff Chris. Killin' it w/ the homebrew boostage mods. Can't wait for the Frank Tune and dyno.

You'll be harshing your cats a bit, luckily you got the brand new bling bling cats so they hopefully should be OK. The other thing is in cruise and idle hopefully trims fix it up to be in range so they aren't under that burden at all times.

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M62 for president! We're going to make this country great again. We're going to build forced induction and we're going to make Mercedes pay for it. They keep coming in and taking members of the bmw community out, and they all need to be sent back to Germany.

excellent. i have to say, you seem to have small hands though.

[philly98540]

Wow, looks like more nitrous will be added.
Your car was really fast last fall when I drove it. Looks like I need to come down again, lol.

I think you can up it a couple notches for sure Jim. I keep sniffing the radiator cap for hydrocarbons to see if my head gasket is leaking... LOL. So far so good! Come on down for one more East Coast tour before you head West!!! Dinner on me!

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You have a disease! That's sick. Look forward to Frank results.

I have the cure, but I think its you that have the disease! LOL. Glad you found that bum injector on the 3 series. Lets hope your compression comes up!

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Pictures of the second pulley please. And perhaps another video if you can to compliment it!

I was in such a rush to get in all installed and tested, I did not take enough pics. It only takes 5 minutes to take apart, so I'll get some pics and details soon. Lots going on though, so it may be a bit...

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I support this whatever is it...

Good job Philly that's turbo boost right there... Props well done etc. Keep it up

Thanks!! The turbo give full boost way sooner, and much more overall power under the curve, but I'll tell you, the V8 combined with this is pretty good stuff. The big turbos have lag, while this gives instant throttle response, so the car feels more like a normal NA set up, but with power that just keeps coming.

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M62 for president! We're going to make this country great again. We're going to build forced induction and we're going to make Mercedes pay for it. They keep coming in and taking members of the bmw community out, and they all need to be sent back to Germany.

^^LOL. But it looks like we got Danny back. His Merc honeymoon wore off. I wonder how Brandon is doing with his...

[extra]

That way you can get better midrange without blowing your manifold potentially

danger to manifold.JPG

I crack myself up.

[philly98540]

Cool stuff Chris. Killin' it w/ the homebrew boostage mods. Can't wait for the Frank Tune and dyno.

You'll be harshing your cats a bit, luckily you got the brand new bling bling cats so they hopefully should be OK. The other thing is in cruise and idle hopefully trims fix it up to be in range so they aren't under that burden at all times.

Thanks JC. Its fun getting an idea, making it, then seeing that it actually works. I will always need a hobby and this in the one for now. You think the AFR's in the 10's at WOT will damage the cats? I hope not... I guess I better go easy till tune time.

[auaq]

Any updates? Did you get a retune yet? 555 to the wheels yet?

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And maybe 666 torx @ the wheels?

[philly98540]

I got the retune at Frank's the other week. Been super busy, so did not update yet. Car did 475 whp on Frank's dyno. I'll post some better updates soon.

[NordmanMg]

How does crank ventilation system works with supercharger? Always wanted to ask this question

[JimLev]

Car did 475 whp on Frank's dyno. I'll post some better updates soon.

Very impressive. Keep us posted as to any head gasket issues. Guess it's time for me to add another 50 shot of juice if yours survives.

[mcgnms]

How does crank ventilation system works with supercharger? Always wanted to ask this question

Extremely simple here. Crankcase gets vented right to the intake pre-supercharger.

[geargrinder]

Yeah. As McGiblets says on these kits its pretty straight-forward. For M62, VF uses a straight tube to the intake, no valve, while Dinan does use an E36 (I think? just looked at one last weekend...) pancake PCV valve but otherwise same general idea.

The solution that most forced-induction homebrewers do is a catch-can, which is either atmos vented, or vented into the intake also.

On most OEM designs - it's not so simple - they typically have to go further to comply w EPA regs on fume control and so there is usually a 2 or 3 way system with what can be an elaborate series of hoses and PCV check valves.

The general gist of those systems is usually:

1. In no/low boost mode i.e. vacuum, crankcase vents to inside of intake manifold like normal
2. In boost mode, that closes up and the crankcase vents to compressor (turbo/SC) intake

As an example that I am intimately familiar with... the old Audi I5 turbos use a system like this (it's a bit more complicated than this diagram but it gives you the general gist):



And in designing the above you have to...

• Ensure you aren't pressurizing the crankcase with boost,
• nor sucking too hard on the crankcase with compressor vacuum.

Both of which will increase blow-by considerably and over time not be good.
One of the complexities of the system above (not indicated in diagram) is that one of the valves is actually not just a simple check-valve but has a check-valve-and-regulator function, so it allows one-way flow but if pressure increases too much, then it starts to close off again and keep the turbo from sucking too hard on of the crankcase. Guys who replace that OEM valve with a basic check valve find their motors consuming tons of oil via PCV...

[philly98540]

Good details on the CCV routing GG. Seems logical as it takes care of both running routines effectively (boost and vac). But adds some more stuff to break. I'd like to have something like that, but likely not worth the hassle. It would reduce oily residue in the pre SC intake some, I would think, so that would be a plus. Not that its a big deal, just would be nice to minimize this and also keep the crankcase at the proper vacuum level during normal cruise and idle.

Jim- so far so good. No leaks and no exhaust fumes under the coolant cap! Juice here up! Maybe I should be stock in New Mexico industrial gases.

Anyway, here is the car at TTFS.

TTFS Dyno1.jpg


TTFS Dyno2.jpg


Frank calibrated the rpm vs wheel speed to get rpm on the dyno. Still no tach pickup, but crossover point looked good. He did a fair amount of fiddling and adjusting on the fuel maps to re-calibrate for the 42# injectors. There was a cruise (closed loop) and a WOT (open loop) maps to adjust and some timing map work. We did a few runs and adjusted some more. He was surprised at how much timing this motor could take at these boost levels. The meth is doing its job here. He was skeptical of the boost numbers, so we connected his gauge to verify. 15.5 psi on his gauge. We both concluded that the cams/heads are likley at a choke point on this engine at this boost level, and adding any more boost would not be worth it.

My ECU is the 5.21, and was only used for like a year or two. This means its very rare on in the tuning world, as such not much data out there. After adjusting the fuel maps, we were still seeing a strange fuel trim that did not make sense. Frank made some calls to a buddy in Taiwan or somewhere, and they figured out some hidden value needed to be adjusted in the tune. That caused some good delays in the process. Gotta love all these variations in these computers.

Here is the dyno sheet.

42# tune Dyno Plot TTFS.jpg


Frank says easy low 500's WHP on a DJ. I can see the torque number is lower here, vs my last DJ runs, before this boost increase. The but dyno says TQ is way up, so it should be interesting to see a DJ run again.

So, I got home really late (3AM) that night, but glad I got the tune done. Car feels great.

There is a new issue that surfaced after I got home that we never noticed at Franks. On a cold start, the DME is adding way too much fuel. The DME still thinks it has the smaller injectors during the cold start mode. If I let it start, and simply blip the throttle once, its exits this mode and runs perfectly normal. Frank is trying to figure out where this particular DME is looking during this cold start and re-fix the tune.

Frank was impressed with the pulley set up and thinks I should start making these on the side. Likely only 5 guys would buy them though... so, right now, I will be holding off on that enterprise. I will post some details soon on the new pulley set up and adapter plate. It really is a nice improvement over the VF set up. Lots more belt take up by the tensioner and way more pulley wrap (traction)

[joekitch]

interesting how you were able to do 16 psi without trouble, yet kenny over on the bimmerboost forum (using that experimental used jaguar supercharger setup) had a rather severe engine failure at only 12 psi (one of the piston skirts cracked), although we're speculating his cats were clogged and that caused some yucky things

[NordmanMg]

Yeah. As McGiblets says on these kits its pretty straight-forward. For M62, VF uses a straight tube to the intake, no valve, while Dinan does use an E36 (I think? just looked at one last weekend...) pancake PCV valve but otherwise same general idea.

The solution that most forced-induction homebrewers do is a catch-can, which is either atmos vented, or vented into the intake also.

On most OEM designs - it's not so simple - they typically have to go further to comply w EPA regs on fume control and so there is usually a 2 or 3 way system with what can be an elaborate series of hoses and PCV check valves.

The general gist of those systems is usually:

1. In no/low boost mode i.e. vacuum, crankcase vents to inside of intake manifold like normal
2. In boost mode, that closes up and the crankcase vents to compressor (turbo/SC) intake

As an example that I am intimately familiar with... the old Audi I5 turbos use a system like this (it's a bit more complicated than this diagram but it gives you the general gist):



And in designing the above you have to...

• Ensure you aren't pressurizing the crankcase with boost,
• nor sucking too hard on the crankcase with compressor vacuum.

Both of which will increase blow-by considerably and over time not be good.
One of the complexities of the system above (not indicated in diagram) is that one of the valves is actually not just a simple check-valve but has a check-valve-and-regulator function, so it allows one-way flow but if pressure increases too much, then it starts to close off again and keep the turbo from sucking too hard on of the crankcase. Guys who replace that OEM valve with a basic check valve find their motors consuming tons of oil via PCV...

Oh, wow, that is interesting, thank you for your time and detailed answer.
thank to McGnms too

[geargrinder]

Good stuff Chris. That 'secret cold start' and 'secret injector size trim value' or whatever it was is typical of OEM ECU's IME. It's why some guys OEM ECU tunes aren't very good - they use the main tables and scalars but there are so many more that should be tweaked for it to be truly proper, and they just never figure out all the details. Have seen it before for sure in my Audiland experience - car that runs perfect numbers all warmed up on the dyno on WOT pulls, but then is a bit of driveability mess in real life. And then the tuner who can sort it out is the guy who will tell you "yeah there's like 12 other values that need to be changed for it all to work as designed..." Luckily Frank is the man and will sort it sooner or later I am sure.

Yeah we don't really need fancy PCV setups w these so much - there's not a problem of too much suction nor of massive boost overwhelming seals or anything like w/ some big boost turbo setup. I do think maybe a light PCV valve on the intake might not be a bad idea the way Dinan did but it's not high on my priority list. I tried an Audi valve on mine for a short period but I think it had too much spring pressure as it increased oil consumption, but something like that would not be bad idea just to close up the CCV when there's no actual crankcase pressure and nominally put a one-way check valve in place.

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interesting how you were able to do 16 psi without trouble, yet kenny over on the bimmerboost forum (using that experimental used jaguar supercharger setup) had a rather severe engine failure at only 12 psi (one of the piston skirts cracked), although we're speculating his cats were clogged and that caused some yucky things

Tried to reply to this once but compuzer is forkin w me today... Try again...

Apples oranges really.

Just had a look at that thread and I think kenny's setup and failure totally unrelated. Clearly these internals are good for solid power on a good tune. Notice recent blown up ones (kenny's, wendell's) have almost always been on some kind of piggy back hack setup, running pretty big boost numbers. Note philly has solid pre & post W/M spray, again, different.

I see Kenny went off the RRFPR but notice even toolman is now admitting those things are hack garbage and not proper tuning. Could be kenny was driving around hitting bad EGT's before his dyno day and that sowed seeds of destruction. Could be as you say he had clogged cats or something like that. Could be he just had bad luck w/ a piston. He mentions wondering about slack timing chains - still could have been some issue there... He wasn't making HP-wise anywhere near the power that "good" M62's can handle so I would not use him as any kind of indicator. Unfort his heinous dyno sheet is unreadable and in "estimated crank" numbers which is total BS really.

Now it kinda looks like in his unreadable useless dyno pic that it says max "crank" torque of 439 which lets guess is still over 400 at wheels for comparison... if that is true, and that is truly a comparable dyno figure, then maybe indeed 400 torques is the limit for the motor without bigger rods... TP would say no surprise that the limit of the rods was exceeded and maybe that rod bent a bit and jammed the piston...

[JimLev]

GG, when I was doing a 100 shot my RW torque was 444.7.
Don't know what it actually is now, must be close to 500 I'd think.

Chris, nice post and info.

[geargrinder]

Ha ha holy crap so there you go. Just more confirmation that these motors are super stout. Torque breaks stuff not HP so if that's true then we have little to worry about.