Sigh. Read for comprehension marcoozlwnfsz. I am totally and fully supporting of the concept. Just not supporting of the incorrect use of the term 'wastegate', just because lotta other innernetwankers use the term incorrectly don't make it right. No car engineer is gonna call that a "wastegate" - if you want to vent to atmos - it's a BOV by definition of application.
You and I can (won't) argue separately whether venting to atmos is good/bad for this application and you know I would go BPV so I could stay on a MAF based system without the problems like you have with your crappy $$ bling bling item (hmmm possibly that unmetered air leaks contributing to why Frank can't tune your car?), but note I AM AGREEING WITH YOU that its an interesting concept.
Don't conflate my pointing out your wrongness on terminology with my saying its a bad idea - how you can rant on defending it being a fundamentally good idea that's used on various systems when I just said the very same thing I don't know...
And this is why I dont come around much anymore...
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BTW Tial probably use the wrong terminology because they know they sell to a lot of dumbass fanboiz who don't really know crap except they want "that wastegate that makes that cool noise!" Trust me I work in marketing. That's how things tend to work when you really want to sell stuff and you come to the realization that your customers are dopes - easier to use the wrong term than to try to educate them out of their dopey misuse of the term.
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
Lol, fine. You win. I'll abide by your terminology standards.
Never said to vent outside. If you put the MV-R on the pipe you'd have to put a hose back to the inlet of course.You and I can (won't) argue separately whether venting to atmos is good/bad for this application and you know I would go BPV so I could stay on a MAF based system without the problems like you have with your crappy $$ bling bling item (hmmm possibly that unmetered air leaks contributing to why Frank can't tune your car?), but note I AM AGREEING WITH YOU that its an interesting concept.
Tial doesn't sell it for this application, they sell the MV-R as a wastegate to be used as a wastegate. I was the one who said to use it differently. Blame me here, not poor Tial. I like those guys.BTW Tial probably use the wrong terminology because they know they sell to a lot of dumbass fanboiz who don't really know crap except they want "that wastegate that makes that cool noise!" Trust me I work in marketing. That's how things tend to work when you really want to sell stuff and you come to the realization that your customers are dopes - easier to use the wrong term than to try to educate them out of their dopey misuse of the term.
Sold: 2000-BMW-E39-540i/Biarritz-Blue/Gray-Interior/DSP Sound.
Engine/Drivetrain: VF-Engineering (Vortech V3 Si-Trim, 3.25''/6'' Pulleys/Tial QRJ -1.5PSI/Bosch Green Giants),Manifold,Magnaflow 16858 (Dual Exhaust/X-Pipe),High-Flow Cats/S62 Clutch & Plate/AEM 320 Fuel Pump/TTFS-Tune/AEM Wideband/Boost Failsafe/E60 SSK/ZHP Knob/CDV Delete.
Handling: ECSTuning Cup Kit (Koni Yellow/H&R 50464)/BF-Goodrich Comp-2 A/S.
Cosmetic: Front & Rear M-Tech Bumpers/Finned Rear Diffuser/Piano Black Interior Trim/Style 37's.
Current: 2001-BMW-E39-M5/Carbon-Black/Silverstone-Interior/Sport Seats/Dinan Exhaust
YouTube Channel
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
GG, it's called Flux capacitor. Now deal with it!
;>)
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
^^Lulz. Whatever it's called there will be no recirculation during full throttle. After VE peaks, I'll take what it gives and just up the meth to keep it cool. That's the plan for now. I may need a diff valve to recirculate properly at cruise/idle and when i let off at redline. I am worried about that monster pressure spike.
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
The 'L' is silent .....
yeah i have definately seen "timing style" cogged belts for some seriously "pully'd up" blowers...
I'm curious to know how well the manifold is holding all this boost... Leak down test?
Last edited by angeleye540i; 03-19-2016 at 10:06 PM.
Obviously. It's SOP for a lot of domestic builds esp the old skool street rods with huge roots type blowers.
Space is already an issue for these so a big wide toothed belt like you see on those is out of the question but indeed a modern 'timing belt' could work... however...
I believe some have the argument that unless absolutely necessary, toothed is not a great idea, that a micro-V belt like this has more than enough grip as long as you get enough wrap, and that it's better in a failsafe condition, i.e. if you have a gearbox failure or something and something binds in the blower you'd rather the belt slip than have a toothed belt have zero-give and continue to grind everything into metal shards, and that could be the difference between a rebuildable incident and a total box of scrap metal. I dunno, I just know that's one argument.
The amount of wrap Chris has there on his new setup I would pretty much guarantee will have zero slip. Can't wait to see it in person.
As said before I don't think the manifold is going to be an issue at all as long as all gaskets are in good repair and well installed, and his obv is all tight and tidy.
Remember people this is still pussy-footing around boost levels. N/A guys playin w/ blowers for first time get so wound up about 1 bar of boost, jeez... That's NOTHING in the big picture. If it was you'd have vac leaks already on throttle lift.
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
When you compare the F/I guys with their stock M/S/5x manifold holding well over 1-1.5 bar of pressure, I don't see why the M6x manifold wouldn't.
I know this type of thread is for a small audience here, but here are the details of what I did to mount the new pulley config, if anyone wants to copy down the road.
Parts Needed:
Pulley: Vortech 2A036-287. Requires 0.115" removed from short side hub to align belt to VF crank pulley.
Idler Mount: Aluminum Plate 1/4" 6061 T6 Like this, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00
Idler Pulley: Dayco 89514, German made and OEM for Mercs. Has nice tall flanges to prevent belt jump.
New Tensioner: Dayco 89325. CCW tensioner that fits in Factory VF mount location.
New Tensioner Pulley: Re-use your VF pulley. I used a modified Gates Pulley, but the VF one Fits.
Idler Bolting: M8x45 w/ 1/4" Flat washer USS Hardened. Need these washers to fit on pulley without binding.
Idler Mount Plate Bolting: 3/8"-16 x 2.5" Flat Hd machine screw, 3/8"-16 x 2.5" Cap Screw, 3/8"-16 x 3" Cap Screw.
Belt: Gates FleetRunner K060586HD, 6PK1490, Green Stripe
Did a quickie CAD sketch to prove concept would fit. New design on top showing tensioner travel, old VF on bottom.
2016-03-20 10.46.50.jpg
Rough calc of belt length needed.
2016-03-20 10.45.59.jpg
New Vortech Pulley needs 0.115" removed from the short side hub to align belt to crank pulley. Uncut on left. After Lathe machine on right.
2016-03-20 10.44.15.png2016-03-20 10.48.20.jpg
Pulley Comparo: L-R; VF Stock 3.8", VF 3.25", Vortech 2.87"
2016-03-20 10.45.13.jpg
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
Covering alum plate with tape, layout for cutting.
2016-03-20 10.53.56.jpgI
I cut the plate with a sabre saw with a fine tooth blade and cleaned it up with a file. I used the VF bracket as a template for the lower holes.
2016-03-20 10.48.54.jpg
Modding VF bracket tensioner mount for the new tensioner. I pilot drilled first as hole was near edge. I aligned the hole so the tensioner pulley would just miss the upper belt. No crashing belts!
2016-03-20 10.52.10.jpg2016-03-20 10.51.12.jpg
New tensioner.
2016-03-20 10.53.11.jpg
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
Cut off one of the alignment bumps to make it easier to mount. This bump interfered with the bracket bolting.
2016-03-20 10.53.28.jpg
All installed with the 2.87" Pulley. I forced the pulley as high and tight as possible without rubbing the SC pulley. I final drilled this pulley location after test fitting it first.
2016-03-20 10.50.31.jpg
I added a lower pulley hole so I can quick swap to the 3.25" SC pulley and keep the same belt. I have it set up this way till I get the new tune and injectors.
2016-03-20 10.49.30.jpg
Here is a template of the aluminum mounting plate. If you print this and scale it so the ruler scales correct, it should fit up perfectly.
Template.jpeg
Last edited by philly98540; 03-20-2016 at 03:54 PM. Reason: Added template
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
Nicely done, Chris!
JC-your pie credits are good. No worries.
A New Englander day at Frank's sound really good. We'll have to build in some time to stop by Chris's. Unfortunately can't go this year as we're opening April 8.
And thanks for all the pics, drawings and tech details about the mod, Chris. Very nice job.
Last edited by jstern; 03-20-2016 at 01:03 PM.
Much modified VF Supercharger Kit tuned by Tuning Tech FS, M5 front sports seats, CVV to catch can conversion, Boost Gauge, Schmiedmann header to rear muffler high flow exhaust, Header Ceramic coated inside & out, Exhaust heat wrapped from flanges after header to before CATs, Kicker sub with dedicated 200 watt amp, CCFL angel eyes, CF facelift kidney grills, Quaife LS diff ,Super duty cooling kit, Electric fan controlled by temperature adjustable 2 speed controller (JimLev design)
John
Can you please writedown about temperature? What was your previouse temperature and what temperature of exhaust you have now? Do you have intercooler?
Thanks Aq!
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I will get some new temperature data after I go larger injectors and new tune. Right now, using the 3.25" pulley, my EGT's are around 1250 F or so at full throttle. I have water/meth injection for cooling and knock reduction. No intercooler.
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Thanks! I like making stuff with my mediocre set of hand tools I got. This config seems great so far. Love it.
Be great to have the New England crowd pay a visit. I my join you guys at TTFS if I can swing it!
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
Well done Chris. The car will be a beast with the new injectors and tune. I am sure you will be wanting more soon so might as well start building a lower compression M62!
Thanks for posting the details on the serpentine belt system. If you do need to make some tweaks, here a nice piece of software to add to your tool list. It is developed by Gates and is free. Just enter your pulley diameter and spacing.
http://www.gates.com/catalogs-and-re...ions/design-iq
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...n%20IQ%203.jpg
Looking forward to the post injector and tune update.
2003 M5 LSx l 6 Spd Manual l 4.10 LSD
Build Thread
The chassis must always be regarded as a means to an end and never as an end itself
Looks great, perfect alteration... Looks very nice... Why don't they just give u the big drive pulley with the original kit? Or do they offer it? Excuse my u educated mind on the subject,.. There has to be people out there "trying" to make it work with a big drive AND super small charger pulley, belt squealing and screaming all the while...
And I'm sure you know but gates belts seem to be better than any others I've used over the 12 years of driving my 540i6... I didn't remember readin what kind of belt u were using brand wise
Last edited by angeleye540i; 03-20-2016 at 08:24 PM.
What size injectors are you going to use, I have some 42lbs and 50lbs
02 M5 (less than 45k miles), 09 328, 07 X3, 10 MB C350, '02 530 AA Stage2/intercooler, 04' 330, jaguar 3.0AWD
Thanks! I hope I end my addiction at this level and don't need to build a low comp motor. Lol. I see the guys on FI going that route every day though. I'm hoping this caps this car off on the power side of things.
Thanks for the Gates software link. That looks awesome. I sure could have used that a couple of weeks ago. Lol.
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Thanks. They make the kits to do what they were intended to do, which is low boost, and nothing more. That is the safe way to go, so that's what they make I guess. Reliable and nice on motors if something goes wrong once or twice. Once you go higher, the risks go up.
Adding the wrap help a lot to eliminate slip.
I have a Gates belt. It's on the list above.
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I was planning on going 42# green giants. You have 8 bosch ones FS?
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
I have six, and my other buddy have six. Can PM me with a number and I can send you the pictures, if you are interested.
02 M5 (less than 45k miles), 09 328, 07 X3, 10 MB C350, '02 530 AA Stage2/intercooler, 04' 330, jaguar 3.0AWD
Any plans to go with E85 route?
98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!
Awesome doc Chris! I like the simplicity - not too elaborate, totally reversible if you needed to. It's way smarter than the VF design as it relies on idler-wrap for grip, not pure tension... I have zero doubt it will be way more forgiving of belt wear and tensioner spring fatigue than the factory design. And it's forgiving of 'homebrew' imprecision... if the locating holes are of by a wee bit it is inconsequential.
Might have to do this come warm weather... even just on factory pulley.
Couple questions...
1. Does the belt go on/off easier in this setup? Do you have more slack w/ tensioner released? That's always annoying as hell...
2. Is your alternate tensioner harder/easier/same to get wrench on vs the VF unit? If I had one other change to get out of this it would be a setup where it's not so hard to get the tensioner released.
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VF used to sell the kit w/ the 3.25" as well as the pulley as an after-sale option (Chris famously 'got the last one' from them IIRC?) but now don't even offer that so they are going the other way, which shows how conservative they view the situation. We've never had an explanation from VF exactly but maybe they found upping the boost made for too many support hassles w/ boost leaks or something and decided to just make the system low-pressure across the board.
All of us in real world are running the 3.25" pulley, and mgmgjzzoslijjjfsdlfkjzzzzzmmmmchxznz figured out the highly technical mod (i.e. add a washer) to adapt a stock Vortech 3.25 pulley to work with the kit. Vortech offers tons of pulleys off the shelf for these blowers which is why it's easy to pick up even smaller ones. We'all was shooting around the idea of getting a bigger custom crank pulley made, which is something that is NOT available off the shelf, but this route is cheaper/faster (no design & tool up w/ a machinist...) and has collateral benefits of extra belt wrap and grip.
What's weird about VF being so conservative is that there's no track record of anybody blowing up these motors w/ blower kits on them (aside from the T-Trim/Dirt car, and that was a whole different story)... no history of burnt valves or pistons or blown head gaskets or blown crank seals or anything else you might see from a stock motor that's been over-forced its induction - so most of us believe the ceiling must be a bit higher on them. And there's a good few VF or Dinan cars running around... To your supposition however, no, there aren't a lotta guys at least on record who have tried to go above and beyond w/ these... sure somebody must be out there on the low-low but it's not common. Might have to do w/ the demo of the typical 540/740 owner historically and the fact that the platform isn't really that attractive to your typical home-brew max-power type vs something that has easier routes to power and less complications.
Chris is throwing all-in to find out the ceiling here though which is awesome. (If he blows up his DD I'm def in to head down and help build a replacement motor on a stand... ;^) )
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
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