Upping the Boost on my VF SC'd 540. Testing the Failure Limits of the Stock M62?

[geargrinder]

Sigh. Read for comprehension marcoozlwnfsz. I am totally and fully supporting of the concept. Just not supporting of the incorrect use of the term 'wastegate', just because lotta other innernetwankers use the term incorrectly don't make it right. No car engineer is gonna call that a "wastegate" - if you want to vent to atmos - it's a BOV by definition of application.

You and I can (won't) argue separately whether venting to atmos is good/bad for this application and you know I would go BPV so I could stay on a MAF based system without the problems like you have with your crappy $$ bling bling item (hmmm possibly that unmetered air leaks contributing to why Frank can't tune your car?), but note I AM AGREEING WITH YOU that its an interesting concept.

Don't conflate my pointing out your wrongness on terminology with my saying its a bad idea - how you can rant on defending it being a fundamentally good idea that's used on various systems when I just said the very same thing I don't know...

And this is why I dont come around much anymore...

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BTW Tial probably use the wrong terminology because they know they sell to a lot of dumbass fanboiz who don't really know crap except they want "that wastegate that makes that cool noise!" Trust me I work in marketing. That's how things tend to work when you really want to sell stuff and you come to the realization that your customers are dopes - easier to use the wrong term than to try to educate them out of their dopey misuse of the term.

[mcgnms]

Sigh. Read for comprehension marcoozlwnfsz. I am totally and fully supporting of the concept. Just not supporting of the incorrect use of the term 'wastegate', just because lotta other innernetwankers use the term incorrectly don't make it right. No car engineer is gonna call that a "wastegate" - if you want to vent to atmos - it's a BOV by definition of application.

Lol, fine. You win. I'll abide by your terminology standards.

You and I can (won't) argue separately whether venting to atmos is good/bad for this application and you know I would go BPV so I could stay on a MAF based system without the problems like you have with your crappy $$ bling bling item (hmmm possibly that unmetered air leaks contributing to why Frank can't tune your car?), but note I AM AGREEING WITH YOU that its an interesting concept.

Never said to vent outside. If you put the MV-R on the pipe you'd have to put a hose back to the inlet of course.

BTW Tial probably use the wrong terminology because they know they sell to a lot of dumbass fanboiz who don't really know crap except they want "that wastegate that makes that cool noise!" Trust me I work in marketing. That's how things tend to work when you really want to sell stuff and you come to the realization that your customers are dopes - easier to use the wrong term than to try to educate them out of their dopey misuse of the term.

Tial doesn't sell it for this application, they sell the MV-R as a wastegate to be used as a wastegate. I was the one who said to use it differently. Blame me here, not poor Tial. I like those guys.

[geargrinder]

Tial doesn't sell it for this application, they sell the MV-R as a wastegate to be used as a wastegate. I was the one who said to use it differently. Blame me here, not poor Tial. I like those guys.

eff those guys! and effewe! eff everybody!

#GGinternetcurmudgeon

;^P

[auaq]

GG, it's called Flux capacitor. Now deal with it!

;>)

[geargrinder]

GG, it's called Flux capacitor. Now deal with it!

;>)

asim you accidentally hit the "L" key there and put an extra letter in. otherwise I agree.

[philly98540]

^^Lulz. Whatever it's called there will be no recirculation during full throttle. After VE peaks, I'll take what it gives and just up the meth to keep it cool. That's the plan for now. I may need a diff valve to recirculate properly at cruise/idle and when i let off at redline. I am worried about that monster pressure spike.

[auaq]

The 'L' is silent .....

[angeleye540i]

yeah i have definately seen "timing style" cogged belts for some seriously "pully'd up" blowers...

I'm curious to know how well the manifold is holding all this boost... Leak down test?

[geargrinder]

yeah i have definately seen "timing style" cogged belts for some seriously "pully'd up" blowers...

Obviously. It's SOP for a lot of domestic builds esp the old skool street rods with huge roots type blowers.

Space is already an issue for these so a big wide toothed belt like you see on those is out of the question but indeed a modern 'timing belt' could work... however...

I believe some have the argument that unless absolutely necessary, toothed is not a great idea, that a micro-V belt like this has more than enough grip as long as you get enough wrap, and that it's better in a failsafe condition, i.e. if you have a gearbox failure or something and something binds in the blower you'd rather the belt slip than have a toothed belt have zero-give and continue to grind everything into metal shards, and that could be the difference between a rebuildable incident and a total box of scrap metal. I dunno, I just know that's one argument.

The amount of wrap Chris has there on his new setup I would pretty much guarantee will have zero slip. Can't wait to see it in person.

I'm curious to know how well the manifold is holding all this boost... Leak down test?

As said before I don't think the manifold is going to be an issue at all as long as all gaskets are in good repair and well installed, and his obv is all tight and tidy.
Remember people this is still pussy-footing around boost levels. N/A guys playin w/ blowers for first time get so wound up about 1 bar of boost, jeez... That's NOTHING in the big picture. If it was you'd have vac leaks already on throttle lift.

[auaq]

When you compare the F/I guys with their stock M/S/5x manifold holding well over 1-1.5 bar of pressure, I don't see why the M6x manifold wouldn't.

[philly98540]

I know this type of thread is for a small audience here, but here are the details of what I did to mount the new pulley config, if anyone wants to copy down the road.

Parts Needed:
Pulley: Vortech 2A036-287. Requires 0.115" removed from short side hub to align belt to VF crank pulley.
Idler Mount: Aluminum Plate 1/4" 6061 T6 Like this, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00
Idler Pulley: Dayco 89514, German made and OEM for Mercs. Has nice tall flanges to prevent belt jump.
New Tensioner: Dayco 89325. CCW tensioner that fits in Factory VF mount location.
New Tensioner Pulley: Re-use your VF pulley. I used a modified Gates Pulley, but the VF one Fits.
Idler Bolting: M8x45 w/ 1/4" Flat washer USS Hardened. Need these washers to fit on pulley without binding.
Idler Mount Plate Bolting: 3/8"-16 x 2.5" Flat Hd machine screw, 3/8"-16 x 2.5" Cap Screw, 3/8"-16 x 3" Cap Screw.
Belt: Gates FleetRunner K060586HD, 6PK1490, Green Stripe

Did a quickie CAD sketch to prove concept would fit. New design on top showing tensioner travel, old VF on bottom.

2016-03-20 10.46.50.jpg



Rough calc of belt length needed.

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New Vortech Pulley needs 0.115" removed from the short side hub to align belt to crank pulley. Uncut on left. After Lathe machine on right.

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Pulley Comparo: L-R; VF Stock 3.8", VF 3.25", Vortech 2.87"

2016-03-20 10.45.13.jpg

[philly98540]

Covering alum plate with tape, layout for cutting.

2016-03-20 10.53.56.jpgI


I cut the plate with a sabre saw with a fine tooth blade and cleaned it up with a file. I used the VF bracket as a template for the lower holes.

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Modding VF bracket tensioner mount for the new tensioner. I pilot drilled first as hole was near edge. I aligned the hole so the tensioner pulley would just miss the upper belt. No crashing belts!

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New tensioner.

2016-03-20 10.53.11.jpg

[philly98540]

Cut off one of the alignment bumps to make it easier to mount. This bump interfered with the bracket bolting.

2016-03-20 10.53.28.jpg



All installed with the 2.87" Pulley. I forced the pulley as high and tight as possible without rubbing the SC pulley. I final drilled this pulley location after test fitting it first.

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I added a lower pulley hole so I can quick swap to the 3.25" SC pulley and keep the same belt. I have it set up this way till I get the new tune and injectors.


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Here is a template of the aluminum mounting plate. If you print this and scale it so the ruler scales correct, it should fit up perfectly.

Template.jpeg

[auaq]

Nicely done, Chris!

[jstern]

Hey I still got pie credits in the bank! Can't wait to head up for an early season item. ;^)

If you do think about the roadtrip lemme know would be fun to have New Englander day at TTFS...

JC-your pie credits are good. No worries.

A New Englander day at Frank's sound really good. We'll have to build in some time to stop by Chris's. Unfortunately can't go this year as we're opening April 8.

And thanks for all the pics, drawings and tech details about the mod, Chris. Very nice job.

[dovlet]

Can you please writedown about temperature? What was your previouse temperature and what temperature of exhaust you have now? Do you have intercooler?

[philly98540]

Nicely done, Chris!

Thanks Aq!

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Can you please writedown about temperature? What was your previouse temperature and what temperature of exhaust you have now? Do you have intercooler?

I will get some new temperature data after I go larger injectors and new tune. Right now, using the 3.25" pulley, my EGT's are around 1250 F or so at full throttle. I have water/meth injection for cooling and knock reduction. No intercooler.

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JC-your pie credits are good. No worries.

A New Englander day at Frank's sound really good. We'll have to build in some time to stop by Chris's. Unfortunately can't go this year as we're opening April 8.

And thanks for all the pics, drawings and tech details about the mod, Chris. Very nice job.

Thanks! I like making stuff with my mediocre set of hand tools I got. This config seems great so far. Love it.

Be great to have the New England crowd pay a visit. I my join you guys at TTFS if I can swing it!

[Schitzo]

Well done Chris. The car will be a beast with the new injectors and tune. I am sure you will be wanting more soon so might as well start building a lower compression M62!
Thanks for posting the details on the serpentine belt system. If you do need to make some tweaks, here a nice piece of software to add to your tool list. It is developed by Gates and is free. Just enter your pulley diameter and spacing.

http://www.gates.com/catalogs-and-re...ions/design-iq
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...n%20IQ%203.jpg

Looking forward to the post injector and tune update.

[angeleye540i]

Looks great, perfect alteration... Looks very nice... Why don't they just give u the big drive pulley with the original kit? Or do they offer it? Excuse my u educated mind on the subject,.. There has to be people out there "trying" to make it work with a big drive AND super small charger pulley, belt squealing and screaming all the while...

And I'm sure you know but gates belts seem to be better than any others I've used over the 12 years of driving my 540i6... I didn't remember readin what kind of belt u were using brand wise

[paulpg]

What size injectors are you going to use, I have some 42lbs and 50lbs

[philly98540]

Well done Chris. The car will be a beast with the new injectors and tune. I am sure you will be wanting more soon so might as well start building a lower compression M62!
Thanks for posting the details on the serpentine belt system. If you do need to make some tweaks, here a nice piece of software to add to your tool list. It is developed by Gates and is free. Just enter your pulley diameter and spacing.

http://www.gates.com/catalogs-and-re...ions/design-iq
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...n%20IQ%203.jpg

Looking forward to the post injector and tune update.

Thanks! I hope I end my addiction at this level and don't need to build a low comp motor. Lol. I see the guys on FI going that route every day though. I'm hoping this caps this car off on the power side of things.

Thanks for the Gates software link. That looks awesome. I sure could have used that a couple of weeks ago. Lol.

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Looks great, perfect alteration... Looks very nice... Why don't they just give u the big drive pulley with the original kit? Or do they offer it? Excuse my u educated mind on the subject,.. There has to be people out there "trying" to make it work with a big drive AND super small charger pulley, belt squealing and screaming all the while...

And I'm sure you know but gates belts seem to be better than any others I've used over the 12 years of driving my 540i6... I didn't remember readin what kind of belt u were using brand wise

Thanks. They make the kits to do what they were intended to do, which is low boost, and nothing more. That is the safe way to go, so that's what they make I guess. Reliable and nice on motors if something goes wrong once or twice. Once you go higher, the risks go up.

Adding the wrap help a lot to eliminate slip.

I have a Gates belt. It's on the list above.

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What size injectors are you going to use, I have some 42lbs and 50lbs

I was planning on going 42# green giants. You have 8 bosch ones FS?

[paulpg]

I have six, and my other buddy have six. Can PM me with a number and I can send you the pictures, if you are interested.

[auaq]

Any plans to go with E85 route?

[philly98540]

I have six, and my other buddy have six. Can PM me with a number and I can send you the pictures, if you are interested.

PM sent.

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Any plans to go with E85 route?

Not at this point. E85 is not prevalent around here. At these levels likely not worth the extra tune and such. Those i6 turbo guys pushing 700 or so, that's where the E85 pays off IMO

[geargrinder]

Awesome doc Chris! I like the simplicity - not too elaborate, totally reversible if you needed to. It's way smarter than the VF design as it relies on idler-wrap for grip, not pure tension... I have zero doubt it will be way more forgiving of belt wear and tensioner spring fatigue than the factory design. And it's forgiving of 'homebrew' imprecision... if the locating holes are of by a wee bit it is inconsequential.

Might have to do this come warm weather... even just on factory pulley.

Couple questions...
1. Does the belt go on/off easier in this setup? Do you have more slack w/ tensioner released? That's always annoying as hell...
2. Is your alternate tensioner harder/easier/same to get wrench on vs the VF unit? If I had one other change to get out of this it would be a setup where it's not so hard to get the tensioner released.

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Why don't they just give u the big drive pulley with the original kit? Or do they offer it? Excuse my u educated mind on the subject,.. There has to be people out there "trying" to make it work with a big drive AND super small charger pulley, belt squealing and screaming all the while...

VF used to sell the kit w/ the 3.25" as well as the pulley as an after-sale option (Chris famously 'got the last one' from them IIRC?) but now don't even offer that so they are going the other way, which shows how conservative they view the situation. We've never had an explanation from VF exactly but maybe they found upping the boost made for too many support hassles w/ boost leaks or something and decided to just make the system low-pressure across the board.

All of us in real world are running the 3.25" pulley, and mgmgjzzoslijjjfsdlfkjzzzzzmmmmchxznz figured out the highly technical mod (i.e. add a washer) to adapt a stock Vortech 3.25 pulley to work with the kit. Vortech offers tons of pulleys off the shelf for these blowers which is why it's easy to pick up even smaller ones. We'all was shooting around the idea of getting a bigger custom crank pulley made, which is something that is NOT available off the shelf, but this route is cheaper/faster (no design & tool up w/ a machinist...) and has collateral benefits of extra belt wrap and grip.

What's weird about VF being so conservative is that there's no track record of anybody blowing up these motors w/ blower kits on them (aside from the T-Trim/Dirt car, and that was a whole different story)... no history of burnt valves or pistons or blown head gaskets or blown crank seals or anything else you might see from a stock motor that's been over-forced its induction - so most of us believe the ceiling must be a bit higher on them. And there's a good few VF or Dinan cars running around... To your supposition however, no, there aren't a lotta guys at least on record who have tried to go above and beyond w/ these... sure somebody must be out there on the low-low but it's not common. Might have to do w/ the demo of the typical 540/740 owner historically and the fact that the platform isn't really that attractive to your typical home-brew max-power type vs something that has easier routes to power and less complications.

Chris is throwing all-in to find out the ceiling here though which is awesome. (If he blows up his DD I'm def in to head down and help build a replacement motor on a stand... ;^) )