Excessive Wear in Front Tires

[Dboy7er]

I'm having some unusual wear on the outer edges of the front tires, I've gone through many tires on the front for this same reason! I have taken it to get aligned, many times it has a 3 year plan, unlimited alignments. Last time I went they said all my numbers were up to spec, camber and caster were good also and the front end was tight.
201,xxx miles and the front struts are still original. Could that do it ??
Any advice is helpful thanks

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[01740ISP]

If you ever figured this out, please post back. It may be the tires themselves. I noticed you are running the same tires I was. Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 2. It already has the same wear when I bought the car around 50000 miles. The car only had Pilot Sport A/S all its life. Changed suspension bits on the front and new tires. It still happened. Changed tires again and it happened again. I was told here that it maybe my driving style... taking corner too aggressively.

I think I am guilty of that in my daily driver but not really the E38... I don't think I baby it but who knows
Finally went back to discount tire and one of the guy looked at my tires and told me it was a know issue (mine had several chunks come off) with the AS/2. He ordered me some new tires free of charge. I am now running Michelin Pilot Sport AS/3 on the front but only put at most 1000 miles on them since they were mounted. She is now a garage queen.
Maybe I will start driving it again soon.






-Messan

[DrCharles]

If your camber and toe are in specs, I tend to think it's inevitable to have outside wear when cornering such a heavy car (4300 lb + driver)...

Same issue on my '98 740iL. Since I had the center link, tie rod ends (and idler arm bushing while in there) replaced, and the excessive toe-in corrected, it's definitely not wearing as fast but I can still see it on the outside edges well before the inside.

You could rotate the tires front and back... I think the rears tend to wear their inside edges first, due to the independent rear suspension with negative camber...

[PiotrC70]

Unless your actual shocks are worn, I would have them do the alignment with you in the car (providing they're not doing it on a lift) That way, they can get it in spec WITH your weight in the drivers seat. This method is the same method used for corner balancing a car when you have coilovers.

[Dboy7er]

I have also had my center link and tie rod ends replaced recently. The problem was there before these new parts, and still persists after, I don't think I drive it hard or corner much. I've gone through a set of Michelin pilot sport a/s 2 on the front already. Im now on my second set of the same tires on the front and they can't last due to my unusual wear problem on the front..... Do I need camber plates? Even though I was told the camber is with in spec at the shop? Don't know what I got to do to fix this..

[RIboater]

i think everyone is overlooking the problem and that is that "spec" on these cars is aggressive camber in the rear and excessive toe in the front to enhance performance driving, at the expense of premature tire wear. Hey if you can afford a $70-$100k car you can afford a set of tires every 20k miles right? When getting your next alignment, specify that you do NOT want spec. There is no caster/camber adjustment on the front end so have them set the toe at almost 0. You can't or shouldn't have them perfectly square or you'll have wander on straightaways. I did this along with having them take out the aggressive rear camber and my tires thank me for it.

[chris33]

My Pilot Sport A/S (3 Sets) all did the same as SP's tires (chuncking). I switched to the Continental DWS about a year ago and so far they are wearing perfectly even.

[PiotrC70]

So the common trend with this post is don't buy Michelin Pilot Sports. lol

[01740ISP]

I know my next set won't be Pilot Sport. As much as I like them, I can't deal with the premature wear on the front any longer. I was thinking of going with Kumho the next time around. Can't be any worse than these.

-Messan

[Dboy7er]

You guys really think the premature wear can be because of the tire brand?
When I got my E38 a few years ago, the tires it came with (Milestar) on the front still had excessive wear on the outer shoulders, not to mention these were 235/55/18 the size my m pars are supposed to have. I'm currently running
245/45/18 on the front and 275/40/18 on the rear, I also experienced the chunking problem with these tires on my first set...

[Frankie]

..."spec" on these cars is aggressive camber in the rear and excessive toe in the front to enhance performance driving, at the expense of premature tire wear...

Excellent post.

This means any tire will wear as discussed (at least on E38 Sports). I too had Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 2 with this front wear pattern, and recently replaced them with A/S 3. Keep in mind Michelins are softer with a lower tread wear warranty than competitors. That's the price to pay for great traction. I will, however, do as suggested the next time I get an alignment.

[DrCharles]

I should also point out that the BMW recommended tire pressures are very soft in the front, to enhance understeer. Apparently BMW prefers that you hit things with a front corner (understeer) rather than hitting them with a rear corner (oversteer). I think it's something like 32 front, 39 rear (cold pressures) for my '98 740iL with non-staggered sizes!

An underinflated tire will wear more on the edges (and more so on the outside edges when cornering) than a properly inflated one. I run my fronts at 34 or 35 cold and it does handle perceptibly better, if riding a little rougher on our wonderful dirt roads...

[pumpedTSI]

Funny you should say that............my pilot sports lasted about 12-14k before wearing the edge thin........cant switch side to side because theyre directional and cant switch front to back because of the staggered sizes.....all my suspension components are new and I had the Hunter 4 wheel alignment with me in the drivers seat (240lbs) when I noticed wear 10k miles ago.....no difference......love the pilots.....grip well and VERRY quiet......I have Goodyear Eagles now but they gotta go......cant take the noise.....must be a Michelin issue....

QUOTE=chris33;29144222]My Pilot Sport A/S (3 Sets) all did the same as SP's tires (chuncking). I switched to the Continental DWS about a year ago and so far they are wearing perfectly even.[/QUOTE]

[racer2086]

Did you get a printout of the alignment results? It would be interesting to see what it's set at. When I had mine aligned, the front toe is right in the middle. I do have Conti's on the front. Everything is wearing normal on my car. Attached is my alignment sheet from 3 years ago.

alignment.jpg

[Frankie]

I'll play.

My alignment report shows a few interesting things: BMW specifies a somewhat-aggressive, positive front toe. So, this couldn't be the source of the front tire wear being discussed (since the tires point outward, this should wear the inside of the front tire). However, the front camber spec - while not as aggressive or strict as the rear - may be a contributing factor.

I'm pleased to see my tech has front camber adjusted well within spec, while placing rear camber outside of spec (as RIboater suggested, to help reduce rear tire inner wear).

alignment_report_small.gif

[daytonatrbo]

I'll play.

My alignment report shows a few interesting things: BMW specifies a somewhat-aggressive, positive front toe. So, this couldn't be the source of the front tire wear being discussed (since the tires point outward, this should wear the inside of the front tire). However, the front camber spec - while not as aggressive or strict as the rear - may be a contributing factor.

I'm pleased to see my tech has front camber adjusted well within spec, while placing rear camber outside of spec (as RIboater suggested, to help reduce rear tire inner wear).

alignment_report_small.gif

Toe IN is positive....

[asianvenom]

Michelin Pilot sports AS is crappy for the price. All season tires that last less than 15k miles, and prematurely chunking is rediculous. I had the first set on the car spanking new, 5k miles later, chunking on the outside lasted 12k miles. Replace it with same set, same crap happened. I switched over to Continental DWS 006, everything is looking good 10k miles later. I did also lowered the car and got an alignment.

[Frankie]

Toe IN is positive....

Wikipedia says you're right. I stand corrected: positive front toe angle could be a contributing factor to front outer tire wear. And the negative camber would cause inner tire wear. I would think these two factors cancel each other out.

[jimmythefish]

i think everyone is overlooking the problem and that is that "spec" on these cars is aggressive camber in the rear and excessive toe in the front to enhance performance driving, at the expense of premature tire wear. Hey if you can afford a $70-$100k car you can afford a set of tires every 20k miles right? When getting your next alignment, specify that you do NOT want spec. There is no caster/camber adjustment on the front end so have them set the toe at almost 0. You can't or shouldn't have them perfectly square or you'll have wander on straightaways. I did this along with having them take out the aggressive rear camber and my tires thank me for it.

This suggestions sounds the most accurate, I am going to try this. I have a 2001 750il approaching 200K and it has been eating the outer edges of the front tires way faster than my inner aspect of my rear tires. My mechanic says the alignment of the car is spec., which follows the logic that BMW is giving you the best driving experience with these cars at the expense of the tires. I am also dealing with the dreaded wheel shimmy right now and have replaced the upper and lower control arms with no benefit. I am going to look at the front brake calipers, rotors to make sure everything is sound. I will report back on my experience, since this is considered a "trait' of these cars.

Also, good information on this site about the E32 and E38. http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/Index.htm

James

[rslifkin]

It's an old thread, but basically, the front alignment is factory spec-ed for driving mostly straight at high speeds. So lots of toe in and not much negative camber. Which means if you push it in corners and aren't usually at high speeds where you get more bushing and tire flex and need all of that toe in, it'll eat the outsides of the front tires. For less tire wear but while also keeping the docile manners of the stock alignment), you'd want to add camber plates and bring the front up to 1* or a bit more of negative camber, run a little less toe in than stock (but still some). For the rear, run a little less camber than spec (the rear has a better camber curve than the front anyway) and definitely a bit less toe than spec.

Stock specs for toe are about 2.9mm in for the front, 3.7mm in for the rear. Camber is 0.25* negative up front (0.6* negative for a sport), 1.5* negative in the rear. Too soon to say on tire wear for my car, but it feels great with camber plates, 1.2* negative camber and 2.5mm toe in up front, 1.3* negative camber and 2.2mm toe in for the rear.

[jimmythefish]

It's an old thread, but basically, the front alignment is factory spec-ed for driving mostly straight at high speeds. So lots of toe in and not much negative camber. Which means if you push it in corners and aren't usually at high speeds where you get more bushing and tire flex and need all of that toe in, it'll eat the outsides of the front tires. For less tire wear but while also keeping the docile manners of the stock alignment), you'd want to add camber plates and bring the front up to 1* or a bit more of negative camber, run a little less toe in than stock (but still some). For the rear, run a little less camber than spec (the rear has a better camber curve than the front anyway) and definitely a bit less toe than spec.

Stock specs for toe are about 2.9mm in for the front, 3.7mm in for the rear. Camber is 0.25* negative up front (0.6* negative for a sport), 1.5* negative in the rear. Too soon to say on tire wear for my car, but it feels great with camber plates, 1.2* negative camber and 2.5mm toe in up front, 1.3* negative camber and 2.2mm toe in for the rear.

Thanks for the input, I am having the front tires rebalanced today because I have the dreaded front shimmy to solve. Do you have a recommendation of where and/or type of camber plates to use?

Thanks again,

James

[rslifkin]

I'm personally using the Ground Control plates listed for the E39 M5. They bolt right up on an E38 (and should fit an E39 540 as well). They're not cheap, but they're only a little more money than the K-Mac plates and they're very well made (I've heard mixed reviews on the K-Mac plates).

If you've still got shimmies with new thrust arms, check for any play in the tie rod ends, idler arm and center link. When you add camber plates is a good time to replace steering parts as well, being that both will require an alignment.

[slemmer]

I started to get the same outer tire wear only after replacing my front end linkages. My local guy said it was all to spec. when I placed a vertical level on the front I noticed I had positive camber on both wheels. There was a write up that said you have to load the tires before tightening down the bolt on the lower front shock tower. On the shock tower there is a lip where the bracket touches before you tighten up the bolt. To my surprise the f'in bolt wasn't tightened on the driver's side and the right side wasn't touching the notch on the shock tower. I redid the seating and tightening. After putting the wheels back on the ground I then had the negative camber and it's been two years since I've had front outer tire wear. Both front wheels are wearing properly. Hope this helps. Stephen.

[jimmythefish]

Thanks Guys for the input. I put all new tires on my car, new pads and rotors on all 4 corners and the shimmy is gone! Upper and lower control arms were done about a year ago.

Stephen, do you remember where you read that post or write up about the loading and tightening? I had my front shocks replaced about 5 years ago, and I think my front tire wear became more noticeable then....this might be why I am getting excessive wear Iabove and beyond normal.

Thanks again guys!

James

[Aitch]

Thanks Guys for the input. I put all new tires on my car, new pads and rotors on all 4 corners and the shimmy is gone! Upper and lower control arms were done about a year ago.

Stephen, do you remember where you read that post or write up about the loading and tightening? I had my front shocks replaced about 5 years ago, and I think my front tire wear became more noticeable then....this might be why I am getting excessive wear Iabove and beyond normal.

Thanks again guys!

James

Was your shimmy just under braking? Or constant at speed?

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