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Thread: Time to replace Clutch? Also, oil leak?

  1. #1
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    Time to replace Clutch? Also, oil leak?

    Hey all, so recently my 95 M3 has started smelling of what I am assuming is burnt clutch. Under normal driving, there isn't much smell but if I get on it or shift even remotely hard (or at high RPM) it is certainly there. Shifting has become increasingly difficult; goes into all gears fine but there is definitely more resistance and no where near as "smooth" as it used to be. I just hit 140,000 miles the other day and I changed my tranny fluid about two years ago. I was hoping I was just running super low on fluid but I just checked...shit started dripping as soon as I took the fill plug off so it is definitely full. Does this sound like my clutch is in need of replacing? My guibo could use a replacement but I doubt that would cause the burning smell. Motor mounts could probably use a replacement and my tranny mounts have been replace. As far as I know, I am on my original clutch so theoretically, my fly wheel should still be good since they are supposed to be good for one clutch job. However, with the price of an F1 (fx?) racing stage 2 clutch/flywheel kit being what it is...I am tempted to just go that route. General consensus on those seem to be really good am I right?

    I was planning on attempting this myself as it doesn't look too difficult; probably would take me a week to deal with. However, from what I am seeing, most people who have performed their own clutch replacement are saying that this isn't a job they would want to do again. With my lack of lift and lack of friends around for help, I am starting to lean towards having someone else do it for me. This puts me in a pickle though. Obviously, there are a ton of stuff that "Might as well get replaced" while you are in there. I have a replacement guibo and driveshaft center support bearing. What else should/might as well be done?


    At the top of my head, all I can think of is:

    • Rear main seal


    Is the starter worth doing? I know there are some other things that I just cant think of right now. My tranny mounts have already been updated/upgraded and I have performed a shifter refresh. I could do an SSK install but I am able to do that without even dropping the exhaust or axle so I can wait.

    Also, it seems I have an oil leak somewhere. Most of the underside is covered in oil. The cross bar near the tranny mount is covered in fresh oil and the tranny itself is pretty dirty. I am assuming the rear main seal is going. the oil pan is covered except for on the driver side...does this sound like it's possibly the oil pan gasket? I replaced my valvecover/gasket when I replaced my vanos a couple of years ago. Any other places that could be causing this leak?

  2. #2
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    I just did mine. 99 vert. I will throw a few things out there:

    shifter detent kit, shifter seals, bushings, sjort shift kit, insulation under tranny tunnel, exhaust bolts, tranny/engine mounts, exhaust doughnuts, slave cylinder/clutch line, maybe master cylinder, clutch fork pivot, guibo, probably a few other things I forgot.

    I have not had good luck with aftermarket clutches/lightweight flywheels, so I went OEM. I do have a bear short shifter that feels great with the detent kit, and all new clutch hydraulics. You really wont know what is leaking until you get things apart. Hardest part of the job is getting a couple of the top bell housing bolts and getting the starter out/in.

    IT is a doable job, but it will take longer than you expect.....everything always does. Good luck.

  3. #3
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    It's not a bad job as long as you have a second car and have time. It takes a good amount of time, and is kind of annoying. If you do the detents I would allot about 20 hours of time for your first time. Maybe more. I never keep count since I am lazy/busy and just throw the car up on stands for a few weeks at a time. I've done four in the past couple years and could probably do a simple clutch/flywheel only job in 8 hours on jackstands, but cleaning as well as R&R'ing the little items take a while. Last one took like 2 months because...winter.

    Regarding the oil leak, it is possible that it is the RMS given that it sounds like you are having clutch slippage issues as well as oil dropping. Also could be the transmission input shaft seal. Other possible sources are oil filter housing gasket, which can really make a mess, more concentrated on the driver side above the oil pan, and the oil pan gasket itself. One way to distinguish the source of the leak is to find the highest point of contamination. If the highest point of contamination is the oil pan border with the block on the passenger side, then it's probably the oil pan. If it goes above the oil pan line on the passenger side and you can also feel oil behind the head, then its the valve cover gasket. If it's concentrated on the driver side, and plenty of contamination above where the oil pan and block meet, then its the oil filter housing gasket. Lastly if the topside of the oil pan is clean but the bottom side like transmission and back are covered, it could be either the RMS or trans.


    Things you MUST do when the transmission is out:
    -New flywheel & flywheel bolts
    -clutch kit (clutch, pressure plate, TOB, pilot bearing)
    -new hardware
    -pivot pin
    -clutch fork
    -exhaust nuts

    Things you REALLY SHOULD do when the transmission is out:
    -shift detent bushings
    -starter

    Things you SHOULD do when the transmission is out:
    -rear main seal
    -input shaft seal
    -shifter selector seal
    -shifter refresh including the pivot joint

    Things you should consider doing:
    -new clutch line
    -slave cylinder (I didn't feel the need to)
    -transmission mounts
    -guibo
    -CSB
    -exhaust manifold gaskets
    -exhaust midpipe donuts
    -O2 sensors
    -exhaust hangers / hanger reinforcements from RevShift



    Tool Tips for DIY by yourself:
    -Get a transmission jack from harbor freight. I use one of these. If you are pulling it or installing it by yourself, you need one. Ensures you won't screw up the input shaft or pilot bearing from resting the weight of the transmission on it.

    -Engine support bar to lift the engine up and get the angle right. Really helpful for both removal and install

    -Get a 1/2" drive extension set, both a regular set and a wobble set. I combine extensions and it usually ends up being about 2-3 ft worth of extensions.
    -you need a E-Torx set for the transmission bolts.
    -hook / pick set / small flatheads to remove shift selector seal
    -detent pin/bushing tools
    -1/4" extension set +/- u-joint to get to the starter wiring without removing the intake manifold

    Removal/installation tips
    -Tap the sockets on the trans bolts before torquing them, you don't want to strip the transmission e-torx
    -Don't forget the 10mm bolt that comes in from the front of the car towards the transmission
    -Not much else...removal is pretty straightforward
    -if your exhaust studs break, just have an exhaust shop replace them. It's not worth the headache of drilling them out yourself.
    -Put it in gear when you install the transmission, and rotate the output shaft while you are pushing the transmission into the engine so that the input shaft splines will match up with the clutch splines
    -Play with the angles of both the transmission and the engine while installing, making use of both the trans jack and the engine support bar to align properly
    -Keep an eye on the starter when you thread it in. Thread it in evenly and make sure the dowel seats properly.

    Shift detent tips
    -the guides for the detents often don't say how frustratingly difficult it can be to remove the 5th gear and reverse shift pins
    -the way I found to remove them was first to learn how to pop the bushing out halfway by turning the shift selector (mimicking the motion of sliding the gear selector to the right for 5th gear or left for reverse). Once I figured that out, I could heat up the bushing/pin surrounding with a torch, profusely spray it with Aerokroil (penetrating oil), push the pin back into its bore using a flathead and pop it out again multiple times to try to get the penetrating oil worked into the bore. Repeat a couple times and then I was able to pull it out using needle nose pliers
    -others have reported success using expanding mandrels and slide hammers

    That's all I can think of for now. Hope you find it helpful.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ThreeD; 03-07-2016 at 09:13 PM.
    -Chris

  4. #4
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    God this sounds like it is going to be a pain in the ass. I want to do everything that needs/might as well be done however, if I take the car to someone, I feel like it could get very costly. I might just have to do what I was originally thinking, and buy a second car (an older Miata) in-order to be able to work on this car...lol.

    I'll have to look again but it seems that the driver's side of the oil pan is dirty, but not really covered in oil like the transmission and the other sides of the oil pan. I'll have to see how high it goes but it doesn't sound like it is the oil filter housing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeD View Post
    It's not a bad job as long as you have a second car and have time. It takes a good amount of time, and is kind of annoying. If you do the detents I would allot about 20 hours of time for your first time. Maybe more. I never keep count since I am lazy/busy and just throw the car up on stands for a few weeks at a time. I've done four in the past couple years and could probably do a simple clutch/flywheel only job in 8 hours on jackstands, but cleaning as well as R&R'ing the little items take a while. Last one took like 2 months because...winter.

    Regarding the oil leak, it is possible that it is the RMS given that it sounds like you are having clutch slippage issues as well as oil dropping. Also could be the transmission input shaft seal. Other possible sources are oil filter housing gasket, which can really make a mess, more concentrated on the driver side above the oil pan, and the oil pan gasket itself. One way to distinguish the source of the leak is to find the highest point of contamination. If the highest point of contamination is the oil pan border with the block on the passenger side, then it's probably the oil pan. If it goes above the oil pan line on the passenger side and you can also feel oil behind the head, then its the valve cover gasket. If it's concentrated on the driver side, and plenty of contamination above where the oil pan and block meet, then its the oil filter housing gasket. Lastly if the topside of the oil pan is clean but the bottom side like transmission and back are covered, it could be either the RMS or trans.

    Things you MUST do when the transmission is out:
    -New flywheel & flywheel bolts
    -clutch kit (clutch, pressure plate, TOB, pilot bearing)
    -new hardware
    -pivot pin
    -clutch fork
    -exhaust nuts

    Things you REALLY SHOULD do when the transmission is out:
    -shift detent bushings
    -starter

    Things you SHOULD do when the transmission is out:
    -rear main seal
    -input shaft seal
    -shifter selector seal
    -shifter refresh including the pivot joint

    Things you should consider doing:
    -new clutch line
    -slave cylinder (I didn't feel the need to)
    -transmission mounts
    -guibo
    -CSB
    -exhaust manifold gaskets
    -exhaust midpipe donuts
    -O2 sensors
    -exhaust hangers / hanger reinforcements from RevShift

    Tool Tips for DIY by yourself:
    -Get a transmission jack from harbor freight. I use one of these. If you are pulling it or installing it by yourself, you need one. Ensures you won't screw up the input shaft or pilot bearing from resting the weight of the transmission on it.

    -Engine support bar to lift the engine up and get the angle right. Really helpful for both removal and install

    -Get a 1/2" drive extension set, both a regular set and a wobble set. I combine extensions and it usually ends up being about 2-3 ft worth of extensions.
    -you need a E-Torx set for the transmission bolts.
    -hook / pick set / small flatheads to remove shift selector seal
    -detent pin/bushing tools
    -1/4" extension set +/- u-joint to get to the starter wiring without removing the intake manifold

    Removal/installation tips
    -Tap the sockets on the trans bolts before torquing them, you don't want to strip the transmission e-torx
    -Not much else...removal is pretty straightforward
    -if your exhaust studs break, just have an exhaust shop replace them. It's not worth the headache of drilling them out yourself.
    -Put it in gear when you install the transmission, and rotate the output shaft while you are pushing the transmission into the engine so that the input shaft splines will match up with the clutch splines
    -Play with the angles of both the transmission and the engine while installing, making use of both the trans jack and the engine support bar to align properly
    -Keep an eye on the starter when you thread it in. Thread it in evenly and make sure the dowel seats properly.

    Shift detent tips
    -the guides for the detents often don't say how frustratingly difficult it can be to remove the 5th gear and reverse shift pins
    -the way I found to remove them was first to learn how to pop the bushing out halfway by turning the shift selector (mimicking the motion of sliding the gear selector to the right for 5th gear or left for reverse). Once I figured that out, I could heat up the bushing/pin surrounding with a torch, profusely spray it with Aerokroil (penetrating oil), push the pin back into its bore using a flathead and pop it out again multiple times to try to get the penetrating oil worked into the bore. Repeat a couple times and then I was able to pull it out using needle nose pliers
    -others have reported success using expanding mandrels and slide hammers

    That's all I can think of for now. Hope you find it helpful.
    You ROCK. This is why the e36 is such a GREAT car to own. Easy to wrench on with the community support people seem willing to lend and it's why I have went from not being able to do an oil change to building a track car from scratch in the last 8 years. Props to you.

  6. #6
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    Yes, this is a giant job. I had my car up on the lift for 3 weeks when I did this, attacking it 2-3 hours at a time over multiple days. There are only 2 ways I can manage to keep the M3: I have two extra cars (and one is a Miata!) and a lift. Otherwise it would be on the chopping block.

    ThreeD has a great list. I don't see the pilot bearing, though, unless I missed it....
    Current:
    98 M3/4/5 Alpine/Magma
    05 MazdaSpeed Miata

    Sold:

    00 Honda VFR
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    87 325is turned SpecE30

  7. #7
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    Once the tranny is out, you should be able to tell if the rear engine seal is leaking. It is a bit of a pain to replace. You really need to pull the carrier off to do it right (IMO).
    Could just be the selector seal. Those really seem to leak profusely. ThreeD gives a great list. It tends to be "while I'm in there" type thing. Also, remember, things like exhaust flange nuts & giubo nuts are throw away.
    And use copper anti seize on the O2 sensor threads and exhaust nuts. I've done it with the car on jack stands. It is a big job. I'd replace the entire shift assembly. Bear makes a good one and it comes with the AKG DSSR.

  8. #8
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    I would not put antiseize on exhaust nuts as hardware can con loose. Use a big breaker bar on frozen exhaust nuts after using some penetrating oil or use an impact wrench with some swivel extensions.

    Props to threeD for a great list. I've done everything once on one car. Gotta do everything again on a second car. I will add that to remove the trans housing it helps a lot to wiggle/pry from opposite sides or else the housing can be hard to remove from the shaft.

  9. #9
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    I've used anti-seize on any fastener that comes into any contact with water or heat.

    Over time the cycles of getting hot and cold again will weld the two pieces together. I put anti-seize on all the bolts for the valley pan and water pump, and I've never had a problem with a bolt getting loose.

    If a bolt is torqued to the correct spec it should not become loose

    1995 BMW M3 5 Speed Coupe, 3.0 S50B30, Cosmos Black/Hellgrau Vader, Shrick Camshafts, New Vanos
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    BBS RC 303 Genuine, 24 lb Injectors, Tuned for 93 Octane, StopTech Rotors, Bilstein Shocks, H&R Race Springs
    Continental DWS 06, Eibach Front and Rear Sway Bars, Turner Motorsport Rear Camber Arms, TM RTABs.

  10. #10
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    After you do it once, it gets a lot less exciting.

    I have gotten to the point where removing the trans is a 2 1/2 hour job from car being jacked up to trans out of the car. I prefer wobble extensions to u joints. Make sure you have at least 3 feet worth of extensions.

    Dont forget the 10mm bolt that holds the thin metal shield to the trans. Its on the pass side and faces the opposite direction as all the bell housing bolts. Its easy to forget.

    If you aren't strong then make sure you have a second person or a trans jack.

    I usually get my knees under it and pull the transmission onto my knees and lower it down from there, but that isn't easy and I wouldn't suggest that unless you have no other option...

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I am going to vote against replacing the starter. Unless you replace it with a OE starter, which are $$$. I would trust a 150k 20 year old BMW starter over a reman unit from the local auto parts store.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooper View Post
    I would not put antiseize on exhaust nuts as hardware can con loose. Use a big breaker bar on frozen exhaust nuts after using some penetrating oil or use an impact wrench with some swivel extensions.

    Props to threeD for a great list. I've done everything once on one car. Gotta do everything again on a second car. I will add that to remove the trans housing it helps a lot to wiggle/pry from opposite sides or else the housing can be hard to remove from the shaft.
    Exhaust nuts are not that tight. If frozen then you'll likely snap the studs using a big breaker bar or impact, and that is a much bigger pain. If you have heat (MAPP or, better yet, oxy), that can help at lot. Slow and easy gets them off using heat or penetrating oil. The stock copper nuts are oval shape to lock on the threads. Can't imagine they'll come loose with anti-seize.

  12. #12
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    I have put antiseize on exhaust copper nuts and they loosened. Maybe you had different results, but I won't do that again.

  13. #13
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    Thanks everyone. Glad you guys liked the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by rajicase View Post
    Dont forget the 10mm bolt that holds the thin metal shield to the trans. Its on the pass side and faces the opposite direction as all the bell housing bolts. Its easy to forget.


    - - - Updated - - -

    And I am going to vote against replacing the starter. Unless you replace it with a OE starter, which are $$$. I would trust a 150k 20 year old BMW starter over a reman unit from the local auto parts store.
    Added the comment about the 10mm bolt to the post. Not knowing that bolt existed confused us for a while on our first clutch job, wondering why the transmission wasn't coming out.

    FYI re: starter. FCPEuro sells Bosch rebuilds. I trust the Bosch units more than a 100k+ OE starter.

    For the exhaust nuts I always anti-seize them and personally never have had issues with them loosening, even when re-using them. Since some have had them loosen, and some haven't, I think about it this way. If you don't anti-seize them and they freeze, you have potentially a broken stud on your hand. If you anti-seize them and they loosen, well, at least you'll hear an exhaust leak if it gets bad, and it's simple to replace the nut.
    -Chris

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeD View Post

    For the exhaust nuts I always anti-seize them and personally never have had issues with them loosening, even when re-using them. Since some have had them loosen, and some haven't, I think about it this way. If you don't anti-seize them and they freeze, you have potentially a broken stud on your hand. If you anti-seize them and they loosen, well, at least you'll hear an exhaust leak if it gets bad, and it's simple to replace the nut.
    This lol... It is an exhaust nut, worst case you have to go tighten it up in a year. Worst case ... It isn't a driveshaft bolt or lug nut.

  15. #15
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeD View Post
    It's not a bad job as long as you have a second car and have time. It takes a good amount of time, and is kind of annoying.
    +1. The first time I did it I thought it was an appalling job. The next time (6-speed conversion) was fairly straightforward.

    @OP: Take your time, have another car. You'll inevitably run into unforeseen parts needs and the like. I have exactly the same engine support beam and transmission jack that ThreeD shows. The former is extremely useful, the latter essential if you're working alone and using jack stands.

    More hints for the list:
    - In addition to tilting the engine, carefully drop the front subframe about three-quarters of an inch to get additional working room above the transmission. (You'll need to release the power steering reservoir from its clamp to avoid pulling on the hoses.) Undo one subframe bolt all the way, then screw it back a few turns; use it as a guide for unscrewing the other three bolts.
    - Buy two hardware store M12 bolts about 3" long. Cut off their heads and Dremel a screwdriver slot on the cut end. Once you remove the bellhousing bolts, substitute the studs you've just made for the stock bolts of the same size on each side. Your studs will now serve as guide pins for keeping the transmission aligned both for removal, and even more importantly, for reassembly.
    - It's better to buy one really long half-inch drive extension than to stack multiple shorter ones. At the drive end you'll need to adapt it down to three-eighths for the smaller Torx socket needed for the bellhousing top bolts. Yes to using a wobble extension for the final piece. Otherwise wrap a universal joint with vinyl tape so it doesn't flop too much.
    - You can use your extra-long extension rod to unstick the starter nose. Reverse the rod, position its blunt nose against the starter, and whack the recess end with a BFH.
    - Once all the bellhousing bolts are out and the starter nose tapped free, the bellhousing still won't want to separate from the engine. Simultaneously use two small pry bars, one on each side. Otherwise it'll bind and stick.

    Somewhere here on Bfc there's a long and very complete clutch DIY thread that includes all of the info in this one and more. The job may seem daunting, but I've seen it done at the track in the paddock, so at home in your garage is entirely feasible. You will need a pretty decent tool kit, as well as the few special tools such as the long extension rod and a set of Torx sockets. Oh, and a Bentley shop manual for reference tightening torques, etc.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 03-09-2016 at 09:53 AM.

  16. #16
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    I have just replaced pretty much everything that was mentioned on this thread but have run into a major issue, or maybe not. I just removed the input shaft seal as one of the last items on the checklist but damaged in seal on the input shaft bearing just behind the seal. I attached photo's. I have removed the seal to find a replacement but I'm wondering if any one knows if I really even need the seal?? It doesn't seam like it was packed with grease. It sorta looks like the trans fluid was getting in there for lubrication. Has anyone taken the trans apart and know if the seal is required on the bearing? I know alot of other types of transmissions the input bearings don't have seals.20180312_174605.jpg20180314_122431.jpg

  17. #17
    RRSperry's Avatar
    RRSperry is offline Senior Moment Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Were they new nuts Edgar? New copper jet nuts will NOT come off.
    No matter where you go, there you are...

  18. #18
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    new copper nuts which join the catback to the midpipe. they didn't come off, but they loosened to the point where there was rattling. I'm like wtf?! not life or death...but I imagine most of us remove the midpipe semi-regularly to do maintenance so I don't think anti-seize is needed. My opinion anyways...

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