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Thread: 1995 M3 Time Trial Build

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Took the car to Barber this past weekend for the NASA Mid South event. All the latest mods all worked pretty perfectly. New calipers and pads felt really good, the car had all it's power back with the new plug boots and the suspension really felt good.


    Had one issue that I am a bit baffled by. In my third session, the only one where I really started pushing the car. At the end of that third session, I lost brake pedal. Turns out I boiled the fluid. With the brake cooling setup that I added, I am not sure how I did that as I have never done that before even without cooling. The only thing I can think of is possible incompatibility between the fluid that was already in the car and the fluid I added during the bleed for the calipers. I added Pentosin DOT4 LV to the car, which is supposed to be good to 500F.


    While I got a pedal back after it cooled down, I didn't want to take a chance again, so I drained all the fluid in the car (borrowed a power bleeder) and added ATE TYPE 200 Amber Brake Fluid (purchased trackside from trackside support). I guess I over-drained it and may have drained the master cylinder as I couldn't get a pedal after the new fluid was in. I was working by myself and using the power bleeder; no pedal pushing. Got frustrated and just decided it was best to pack up and live to fight another day.


    Hoping once I bleed the system good that I will get a good pedal back and not have issues again.


    Anyone ever have issues with Pentocin?


    Required Barber Pic

    Last edited by darbyfam; 03-05-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    Cayman S, Golf GSW, E30
    I'm still thinking on this one, but maybe the new calipers and bigger pads allowed you to stop harder/faster creating more heat than the stock rotors could dissipate? Are the pistons in the new caliper aluminum? If so they could allow more heat transfer to the fluid.

    Have you used this fluid before?

  3. #78
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    Nov 2014
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    95 325i Sedan
    Two big talking points on this one.

    1. 509F is not very high. Paired with the 265F wet boiling point, I would never use this fluid. But I'm sure others have their opinions.

    2. When was the last time you flushed the system?

    I have a lot of different cars under my care, and the lowest quality fluid I'll use is the Wilwood 570 (570dry & 284wet). Every time we take those more street oriented cars to the track, we flush the whole system, using 2 bottles.

    On the more track oriented cars, I'm using Motul RBF 600 (594dry & 421wet). We still do a flush before every track weekend.

    It's amazing how quickly brake fluid soaks up moisture and destroys its own boiling point. We've lost a car do to boiling the brake fluid at over 130mph going into a 50mph corner.

  4. #79
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    TXBDan - I had used that fluid before in my Porsche Cayman without issue.

    TheKolton - I had not flushed the system since purchasing the car. I really think that was the issue. I am going to flush it again and get some Motul in there.

    THANKS!!

  5. #80
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    Mar 2014
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    Oregon
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    1999 BMW M3 Coupe
    Quote Originally Posted by TheKolton View Post
    Two big talking points on this one.

    1. 509F is not very high. Paired with the 265F wet boiling point, I would never use this fluid. But I'm sure others have their opinions.

    2. When was the last time you flushed the system?

    I have a lot of different cars under my care, and the lowest quality fluid I'll use is the Wilwood 570 (570dry & 284wet). Every time we take those more street oriented cars to the track, we flush the whole system, using 2 bottles.

    On the more track oriented cars, I'm using Motul RBF 600 (594dry & 421wet). We still do a flush before every track weekend.

    It's amazing how quickly brake fluid soaks up moisture and destroys its own boiling point. We've lost a car do to boiling the brake fluid at over 130mph going into a 50mph corner.

    This^^^^

  6. #81
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    Cayman S, Golf GSW, E30
    [QUOTE=darbyfam;29354332]TI had not flushed the system since purchasing the car. I really think that was the issue. I am going to flush it again and get some Motul in there.

    QUOTE]

    Yikes! Jeez, dude, you gotta flush it more. BMWCCA even tests everyone's fluid for moisture at every event. A lot of clubs require fresh fluid on their prevent tech form.

    I run a liter of ATE Type200 through the car before most events, at least every other event. I've always found simple/cheap Type200 to be fine.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    Knoxville, TN
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    02 M3 Vert; 99 M3 Track
    Great build...I have a similar one that I keep tweaking. Go with Motul RBF600 and you won't be sorry. Also I suggest you look at the routing of the Hard Motorsport brake duct hoses as they turn to approach the rotor. In the one pic it seems like it loops back on itself somewhat so you may not be getting the air flow that you think you are getting. Try to make the transitions as smooth as possible. I know its tough to avoid some rubbing (and yours may be even more difficult since you are running a wider setup than I am).
    Good luck and keep the posts coming!!

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    95 325i Sedan
    Quote Originally Posted by BMWslide View Post
    Great build...I have a similar one that I keep tweaking. Go with Motul RBF600 and you won't be sorry. Also I suggest you look at the routing of the Hard Motorsport brake duct hoses as they turn to approach the rotor. In the one pic it seems like it loops back on itself somewhat so you may not be getting the air flow that you think you are getting. Try to make the transitions as smooth as possible. I know its tough to avoid some rubbing (and yours may be even more difficult since you are running a wider setup than I am).
    Good luck and keep the posts coming!!
    The hose looping or making sharp turns doesn't affect it as much as you would think. When we changed our suspension setup and wheel/tire package on one of the race cars at work, we had to put a sharp bend in the ducting. And I mean VERY sharp. We saw less than a 50* rise in rotor temps. The most important part is to hit the inside of the rotor, not the rotor face.

  9. #84
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    The routing of the hose was re-done after those pics. I actually shortened the hose a bit to make it as short and smooth as possible. I also moved the metal section aft a bit so any rubbing would be done on the pipe vice rubbing a hole in the hose.


  10. #85
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Minneapolis
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    1995 M3 Coupe
    Love the build, looks the same as my GTS car. The great thing with building an older car like the E36 is someone else has already solved for your problem.

    On the brake issues; I would just flush the system and try again, you should not be getting fade. If it persists maybe look at your rotors and make sure they are a quality rotor with good cooling built in. I don't run ducting on my car and have never had brake fade issues. I run a full PFC setup with Prospeed RS683 fluid. Apart from the fluid the only difference with the PFC system that would help with cooling is the rotors, they have huge cooling channels.

  11. #86
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    Jun 2009
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    NSW, Australia
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    E34 540i, R34 GTT
    You're doing all these mods but no maintenance?!?!

    A track car needs much more maintenance than a road car due to it getting thrashed the whole time.

    Have you changed your gearbox oil? Coolant?

    As said, brake fluid should be flushed before every event, and even after every event too if you have cooked the fluid, being that its hydroscopic and absorbs water, if let to sit once its cooked, the water is more easily absorbed and can then go on to damage master cylinders or sludge up the fluid behind caliper pistons.

  12. #87
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    Aug 2002
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    Denver, CO
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    '98 M3
    Every event for brake fluid? Only if you're boiling it. Mine lasts far longer than a single event, it's really dependent on the track and the drivers braking technique. Gearbox oil lasts a long, long time.

    That's not to say that those fluids don't need to be changed, of course they do but the frequency is certainly subjective.
    '03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
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  13. #88
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    Nov 2014
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    95 325i Sedan
    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    Every event for brake fluid? Only if you're boiling it. Mine lasts far longer than a single event, it's really dependent on the track and the drivers braking technique. Gearbox oil lasts a long, long time.

    That's not to say that those fluids don't need to be changed, of course they do but the frequency is certainly subjective.
    Yes. Every. Single. Event.

    And then if you boil it, you're flushing it between sessions.

    Once you have a car go into a wall at over 100mph because of boiling fluid that was only used for a couple weekends, you'll understand. One of the cars in my care has a transmission on it's last leg, so we change the fluid every event. It's the only way to get it to shift smooth. Diff fluid gets changed every few events. I've seen race teams that flush all fluids halfway through the weekend, not matter what. Fluids are cheaper than hard parts, or whole cars.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoney85 View Post
    You're doing all these mods but no maintenance?!?!

    A track car needs much more maintenance than a road car due to it getting thrashed the whole time.

    Have you changed your gearbox oil? Coolant?

    As said, brake fluid should be flushed before every event, and even after every event too if you have cooked the fluid, being that its hydroscopic and absorbs water, if let to sit once its cooked, the water is more easily absorbed and can then go on to damage master cylinders or sludge up the fluid behind caliper pistons.
    I do plenty of maintenance. All the fluids have been changed including trans and diff. I just overlooked the brake fluids working on other things.
    Last edited by darbyfam; 09-21-2016 at 04:15 PM.


  15. #90
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    Jun 2013
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    NC
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    1997 M3 Coupe
    Quote Originally Posted by darbyfam View Post
    I do plenty of maintenance. All the fluids have been changed including trans and diff. I just overlooked the brake fluids working on other things.
    Wow, it's a tough crowd ain't it??

    Nice car, and nice work.

  16. #91
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    A few updates: Continued to experience brake issues after Barber - mostly with ABS. Prevented me from completing Track Night in America and the October NASA event. Turned out to be a severed ABS line that was giving intermittent signals.


    Also changed out the LTW replica spoiler out for the Bimmerworld EVO2 spoiler/splittter combo.





    Hope to have more luck at the November NASA event at NMSP.


  17. #92
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    Brake issues continue and I now believe I have been chasing the wrong problem. I am now quite convinced that I have had a failing master cylinder that has been making me think I had air in the system. The pedal has been soft sporadically. New master cylinder and booster have arrived and will be installed before my next event in January.

    Also installed the AKG short shifter with the UUC DSSR. AMAZING feel!! Highly recommend this setup if you don't have the CAE budget.


  18. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    Stuttgart, DE
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    1987 325iS
    love the brake ducts dude!
    Paynemw
    I Live in Stuttgart, DE now!
    1986 Toyota 4Runner SR5 - Sold!
    1987 BMW 325is 2.7L Track Build & Grocery Getter - Back in RVA driven by my pops
    1988 BMW 535is - RIP but my dream BMW

  19. #94
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    Removed the Willwood calipers and put the stock ones back on. I think the problem was thermal shock. The Willwood pads are only 40mm tall while the stock pads are 52mm tall. The Willwood was only using the outer 40% of the rotor, heating that up and shocking the rotor, resulting in cracks (cracked a rotor after two sessions). I put the stock calipers on until I can find a better suited rotor for the calipers or possibly move that caliper to the rears with a better matched front setup.


    Had another day today and another personal best. Car is feeling very good right now.
    Last edited by darbyfam; 02-10-2017 at 09:40 PM.


  20. #95
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    Did some more math after the weekend and found that I can pull another 80lbs or so out the car if I switch to 245mm tires. That would put me at a race weight of 2650lbs and average horsepower at 280whp.


  21. #96
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    Installed some "aero" mods today to help with the amount of air that was moving under the car.


    First I installed a set of Trackspec hood vents. This is a three-piece set of very high quality with really great instructions and templates. Recommend looking at these guys if you are looking for vents.


    Supplied templates in place



    Cuts being made



    Installed and dust cleared



    Then I fabricated a radiator shroud to direct the air through the radiator rather than under the car.


    Fabricated from lexan (good friend owns a sign shop and I have an unlimited supply)








    Now the path of least resistance for the air is through the radiator, out the vents, and across the windshield to the wing.


  22. #97
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    Did a little more weight reduction today.


    Driver side before



    Passenger side before

    Driver side after

    Passenger side after

    Left overs


    All covered up by the MKAH Motorsports door cards.




    Total weight reduction was 5lbs. I think I could pull another 1lb per door with a torch or something less barbaric than my grinder with a cutting wheel.
    Last edited by darbyfam; 02-17-2017 at 05:34 PM.


  23. #98
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    Today I pulled another 8lbs of wiring out the car. Removed all the modules from behind the glove compartment with the exception of the ABS (still using that). The only thing that I lost that I still had wired up was the windshield wipers. They were powered by the low power module. I will just wire those directly to a switch on single speed later.

    Still have another 1-2 lbs of wiring there to clean up under the dash. Will get that done this week, loom up what's left and get it all zip tied nice and tidy.

    Total confirmed weight reduction since February NASA event is at 13lbs.


  24. #99
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    Mar 2007
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    ithaca Ny
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    95m3/97m345/powerstroke
    Hood vents look great. Pretty sure I'm gunna do the trackspec center vent on my car. I have similar radiator ducting also.

    Curious if it will help with front grip at all.

  25. #100
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    I will know more about return on investment after my next event on April 1/2. Also plan on installing a diffuser and venting the fenders like this

    Last edited by darbyfam; 02-20-2017 at 07:45 PM.


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