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Thread: A few questions about control arms

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    1998 Z3 with 1.9/auto

    A few questions about control arms

    1) Is the control arm bushing/bearing replaceable and are they available in a soft polly rather than rubber?

    2) Is there ANY reason that I would ever need an off set control arm bushing. My car runs true and straight?

    3) Good deal or not: http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...SUSSHK_pg1.htm

    and http://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Inf...VSVSI=614#tab1 $775 and $280 and it seems like the only duplicated parts are the trailing arm bushings.

    What would you polly up on. I want to go IE subframe and BMW for the diff. That kit grabbed my eye because a vendor here I have done business with did not call me back or email me and the little nick knacks like shock mounts, bolts, bump stops that are included in the above kits sure ate up my budget when I make up my shopping list.
    -Marshall

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    ‘97 M3/4/5 ‘99 M Coupe
    My understanding is the offset bushings are for the M versions to add caster. The regular z's don't need the offset as they don't have the additional caster. You can get different material bushings for you control arms (lollipop). If you look at the z's, the front wheels sit in the middle of the wheel well where are the M's are pushed towards the front of the car. I hope that helps.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Two Z3 Roadsters
    Hi Marshall

    I have two non-M Z3's. The only Poly bushes in them are the sub-frame bush. If your car is a daily drive where comfort is key, don't put any other poly bushes in, use only rubber. If you track your car, then do as you please and be prepared for the increase in NVH.

    My Mora car has the offset control arm bush. That's the way it came. It's just over the caster limits on the alignment spec. It has twitchy steering when you hit a bump compared to the other (red) Z3 with centered control arm bushes. The new centered control arm bushes to replace the off-sets are due this week.

    The BMW standard Z3 bush is a little soft and do not last. The Red Z3 and the new bushes due this week are not the standard Z3 bush. I used the Z3M non-offset bush in the red car. Excellent steering.

    Have a different make of solid rubber centered bush coming for the Mora car. Giving the following bush a go. There are many makes, prices and quality out there.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suspension-C...item25ad5f1772

    Hope this helps

    Regards

    Muzz
    1999 2.8L Z3 Roadster,
    2000 3.0L Z3 Roadster,

    There is only one thing more pleasurable than working on a Z3, that's driving it top down on a fine day.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    2000 M Coupe - 2014 435i
    I installed this overhaul kit a few months ago. I got all rubber bushings and I'm happy with the tightness of everything. I do have IE green bushings in the subframe. Why do you want to use poly instead of just rubber?

    http://store.nexternal.com/bimmerwor...kits-p879.aspx
    -Joe

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    E36/7 E36/8x2 E46 F25
    When the M3 was introduced in '95, they used the offset bushings on stock arm as ***part*** of the caster geometry change. Starting in 1996 the M3 and all Z3Ms have a custom control arm that achieved the geometry with centered bushings. Putting the offset bushings on the M arms, or on an otherwise Z3 suspension, will result in a car that drives like crap, as noted above. Bumpsteer city. However, if you are replacing the control arms and are a cheap bastard, using the '95 setup of regular E36/Z3 arms with offset bushings will net the M arm geometry. You will have inferior ball joints, but the geometry will be correct.

    And just a general note because we touched on it. The M geometry caster requires the control arms, top hats and steering knuckles (which means M brakes) as a group to get it right. They are all pieces of the change. Any mix of Z3 parts in there and the bumpsteer will be noticable.
    Last edited by rf900rkw; 02-21-2016 at 07:48 PM.


    /.randy

  6. #6
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    1998 Z3 with 1.9/auto
    Quote Originally Posted by QuestMCoupe View Post
    Why do you want to use poly instead of just rubber?
    I don't want to go through the replacement again in the future. I understand rubber will soften and wear out. That and it seems that parts are getting harder to find at an even semi reasonable price. Will the rubber wear faster? Thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Randy, thanks for the response. No offset bushings for me!

    And yes I am a cheap bastard to a point. My goal is to set up the suspension up so I don't have to deal with it again. It drives fine as it is except it is getting a bit sloppy. It is a summer DD and I do not try to run the piss out of it. I would go BMW but that is one of the more expensive solutions. Some of the aftermarket stuff is cheaper and better which is what makes this so confusing. I also have no reason to try to keep it pure BMW. My little 1.9 auto will never appreciate in value.

    With that in mind what would you suggest? Would you go with a SOFT polly/rubber combo or straight one or the other? Thanks.
    -Marshall

  7. #7
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    I run rubber bushings. I don't think poly has as good a life expectancy.


    /.randy

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    89 750iL | 91 325iX
    I'm running solid mounts, off set on my Non-M.

    Sets caster to M standards, gives me a bit of negative camber too.

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    1999 Z3M, 1999 2.8 Coupe
    The 17 year old rubber I pulled out still looked pretty darn good. I went with the UUC lollipop bushings on my refresh. They house a bearing, but all encased in OEM-like rubber. They're not terribly cheap bastard friendly, but man do they perform. I always know exactly what the front end is doing.

    http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/front...pair-p572.aspx
    Nathan in Denver

    1999 M Roadster, VFE V3 S/C, Randy Forbes Reinforced, Hardtop, H&R/Bilstein, Apex PS-7, Supersprint
    1999 Z3 2.8 Coupe, Headers, 3.46, Manual Swap, H&R/Koni, M Geometry/Brakes, M54B30 Manifold, Style 42

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear Grylls View Post
    I'm running solid mounts, off set on my Non-M.

    Sets caster to M standards, gives me a bit of negative camber too.
    Sorry, but it does not get you M specs. Half the difference between M and Z3 is gained by the lollipops, the other half by the top hats. It is almost exactly even between the two. Running full M caster lifts the steering arm by 8mm which must be corrected. Also, the offset bushing push the outer ball joint forward and slightly in. This will result in less negative camber... but only just, less than a 1/10th difference I would reckon.


    /.randy

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    I run rubber bushings. I don't think poly has as good a life expectancy.
    We have a winner. Thanks Randy.
    -Marshall

  12. #12
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    Hi

    Here are some results that support the discussion about the offset LCAB not being suitable for the Z3.

    The Alignment Tech I use provided the following caster specifications:

    • Z3M 7⁰05’ to 8⁰05’,
    • Z3 3⁰ 11' to 4⁰ 11'


    I had the offset LCAB on a 2000, 2.0L Z3 and changed them for centered LCAB. Alignment results of;

    • Offset, 4⁰27’, outside of spec.
    • Centered, 3⁰20’


    This shows that adding offset LCAB to a Z3 does not give you Z3M Caster.

    Offset LCAB in a Z3 do result in slightly twitchy, jumpy bumpy steering. Not tram lining, but just enough instability to keep you on your toes at 100 km/h.

    Centered LCAB in a Z3 result in very stable steering and is a joy to drive compares to how it arrived with the offset LCAB.

    I have used the following centered LCAB in two different Z3 cars and am happy with the results.



    Have a read of this discussion, especially post #1 and #15. If numbers and details are correct, then it explains why the Z3 gets jumpy bumpy steering when going straight with the offset LCAB. The Z3 steering rack has less mechanical advantage to control the wheels when compared to the Z3M steering rack.
    http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=172261

    Regards

    Muzz
    1999 2.8L Z3 Roadster,
    2000 3.0L Z3 Roadster,

    There is only one thing more pleasurable than working on a Z3, that's driving it top down on a fine day.

  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Is there any reason to keep old control arms after replacing them? I wanted new ball joints and LCAB's, so I just replaced the whole assembly. As I understand it, the ball joints are a huge hassle to swap, so it might make sense for me to just toss these instead of keeping them as spares...but I figured I'd check.
    2001 Z3 3.0 Coupe--Sterling Gray/Sunroof Delete/5MT

  14. #14
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    Reading the various Z3 forums suggests that if the replaceable small ball joint is worn , then the larger one which can't be changed will also be close to replacement time.

    I recently replace the control arms and tie rod ends on the 2.0L Z3 to remove the cumulative results of a little wear in all of them. The old ones are in the scrape metal pile ready for recycling.
    1999 2.8L Z3 Roadster,
    2000 3.0L Z3 Roadster,

    There is only one thing more pleasurable than working on a Z3, that's driving it top down on a fine day.

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Assuming you're going with rubber CABs, there is the choice of solids or partials - the standard CABs on the non-///M Zs are the partial ones, ie, the control arm horns are tied to the lollipops via two thin legs of rubber - which for me caused all types of tramlining. The other option are the solid ones, which do not change the geometry in any way, but at least for me tightened up the front end a lot - probably the most beneficial change I made - and eliminated the tramlining entirely. Assuming I have the numbers correct: the partial bushings are 311 290 592 88, where the solids are 311 290 690 35. ... three of the four Z's that I keep an eye on I've converted over and have gotten only positive words back for doing such. ... having the rubber bushing keeps some pliability in the suspension, and especially in the steering feel; but having the solids means that the road can't drag the car around [also the turn-in is much more crisp etc].

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kornfeld View Post
    Is there any reason to keep old control arms after replacing them? I wanted new ball joints and LCAB's, so I just replaced the whole assembly. As I understand it, the ball joints are a huge hassle to swap, so it might make sense for me to just toss these instead of keeping them as spares...but I figured I'd check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzz258 View Post
    Reading the various Z3 forums suggests that if the replaceable small ball joint is worn , then the larger one which can't be changed will also be close to replacement time.

    I recently replace the control arms and tie rod ends on the 2.0L Z3 to remove the cumulative results of a little wear in all of them. The old ones are in the scrape metal pile ready for recycling.
    Both the inner and outer ball joints are replaceable in the control arms. Both replacement ball joints are available and I have done several. Many distributors offer the control arms with new ball joints as an assembly and I can see the advantage as a matter of convenience. I have a press and the ability to make the necessary bushing jigs, but if you don't, new arm assemblies may be a more convenient alternative. The one time I ordered assemblies, the supplier send me two arms from different manufacturers (one Meyle one China knock off). I consider it more important to do the same thing right and left, so that resulted in greater inconvenience returning the knock off for replacement.

    The caged outer ball joint can lead to some confusion and I built a special jig to support the control arm when I remove them. I replace those with new non-caged ball joints. Some posters on this board have expressed concern that the control arm may be damaged in the process. I have not experienced any problem in this regard, although I have considered running magniflux to check.

    I use poly control arm bushings and have one set with 150k miles on them. That is far better than I'd expect from the stock rubber.
    Last edited by steve f; 06-17-2016 at 01:58 PM.

  17. #17
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    bmw
    what ball joint fits into Z3M wishbones? Meyle HD #?

  18. #18
    Join Date
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    Derek on here (screen name Vinci) had sent this to me in an email some three (>3) years ago. I have not personally bought nor fitted them, but Derek & Mark (Mplass, his dad) have done both their cars.

    If you've ever seen/read any of the write-ups in his signature, you'd appreciate how thorough he is.

    looked them up, so for future reference:

    Outer balljoint: Moog 31121126254
    http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/31121126254

    Inner balljoint: Meyle HD 31121126253HMY
    http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/31121126253HMY

    Looks like they've gone up in price. $104 for the set now.

  19. #19
    Join Date
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    Okay, so now they're <$85/set; I placed an order...

    I have an old set of arms here, so I can try these out on one of my own cars__I NEVER experiment substituting parts for any car belonging to someone else, unless they provided their own parts; too risky!

  20. #20
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    I like the quality of Lemforder much more than Meyle.
    -Abel

    - E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
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  21. #21
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    Thank you for the info. I placed an order this morning for the Lemforder's. Interesting fact. I was looking for a cross usage index and found Lemforder/Federal Mogul online catalog. Lists all engineering specs also all the different companies that use this product but branded differently for example URO. Apparently URO and Meyle sell the exact same product. Maybe the top of the line Lemforder is also the Meyle HD.

  22. #22
    Join Date
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    Just to pile on some more information in the form of a warning, I recall that a certain brand of control arms (Lemforder?) only comes in non-M fitment, but that they reference the same part number for M applications with the stipulation that offset bushings need to be used. That rubs me the wrong way, so I would never recommend it. I would either select a brand with the correct part or rebuild your OE arms.

  23. #23
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    Good afternoon,

    I remember this discussion a while back and am intrigued if anyone has tried replacing the ball joints since this was being discussed? I've checked a few sources and I'm seeing control arms (at least for the M's) are all on backorder.
    When I replaced my struts up front, I noticed my ball joint seals were torn, I'd prefer to replace the ball joints over the winter rather than trying to source new control arms....which could be NLA???

  24. #24
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    02 LSB Z3M Coupe
    I replaced the ball joints on my M control arms about a year ago with Lemforder parts. No issues.
    Control Arm Front Ball Joint outer 31121126254
    Control Arm Front Ball Joint inner 31121126253
    IMG_20180204_131023.jpg

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