e36 vs Miata for HPDE

[ANGST]

Street legal car for HPDE , which would you go with ? I have a friend who is familiar with the e36 and has parts/experience . Obviously the Miata forum has it's own opinions I figured I would ask here and see what you say .

Factors include cost , price / ease of mods for HPDE (Miata needs a roll bar for example, e36 may need brakes ? ) . I hear Miatas are very easy and forgiving , how does the e36 stack up in HPDE ?

[TXBDan]

Miatas are cheaper to buy, maintain, and run. They are proper sports cars with double A arm suspension front and rear (old ones anyway). They will teach you to be a good driver and preserve momentum at all costs! Probably the most fun in a raw feel driving sense. Go karts. But they are slow and one can feel like they're getting run over at HPDEs with today's hardware. They also need a roll bar and are small.

E36s are faster, bigger, probably more fun in a "competitive" sense. You won't be letting cars pass all day. They are likely safer. But they cost a lot more and aren't quite as fun in the feel department. Also less reliable.


A Miata with about 250hp would be the perfect car. Or maybe an Exocet.

[Laptime61]

When i was choosing between those exact two it really came down to one point for me, I physically dont fit in a miata. Now im not saying this to be funny, im 175lbs 6'1 and not a big man and I can get into and out of a my friends stock miata just fine, and i love driving it when he lets me. But in a race suit, in the middle of summer, with a cage, i would feel cramped and hate it. If its all about money though a miata will be cheaper. E36's can be cheap but you have to look for deals and wait for the right items to pop up for the right price, where a miata is just plain cheap. Both are forgiving but in different areas and both have their respective followings. If you move up you can go to spec Miata, if you have an e36 you can run lots of classes. In terms of mods neither car i have found to be easier/harder to work on, they both have good and bad points. That being said i think the Germans have though out things a bit more, stuff like small cutouts to allow your socket to get to recessed bolts and nuts. Also take a look at the tracks you will be running the most. Im in Rockford IL and my local track Blackhawk farms a miata will be faster than a e36 in the same hands, where at road america the e36 will come good. And at the end of the day what do you like? if you cant see yourself having fun in the car, working on it, improving your driving skills in response to your cars weaknesses then you arent gonna have as much fun as you could have had by going the other route.

[Crustashio]

I bought an E36 M3 for a track car. If I could do it again (and I may still go that way), I'd go miata or EF/EG honda. They're just cheaper. Cheaper tires, cheaper aftermarket, easier on fuel, etc. Miata does need a rollbar but there are a ton of options for the NA/NB chassis. I'd want a rollbar in an E36 too if I was tracking it a lot.

The only real drawback is speed. They are not fast, and will never be fast unless you swap the motor or go forced induction. Which there are lots of options for, but you pretty much wipe out the cost advantage that way.

[Inflame]

I'd definitely choose an EG if I were to do it all over again. Swap a B16/8 into it, some good mid-range coil overs, S2000/ITR brake swap, and get it down to 1900#.

[Brake_L8]

I started my track career in a 1995 Miata and now have a 1997 M3. Plenty of experience with both.

First thing, as someone else mentioned, is your height. You need to sit below the rollbar (a rollbar is a must, won't be allowed out without one) and if you are tall, just throwing racing seats in the car may not work for you. I got lucky (I'm 6'1" with about 50/50 split torso/legs) and the seats I used had me just squeak under the bar. It was tight though. The common fix otherwise, to get someone tall in the car, is to have a shop cut out the "humps" in the floor that the seat mounts to, and have a flat piece of metal welded in place instead. It's fine, it's still safe, just extra cost and you are hacking up the car. But, with a track car, it's getting hacked up anyway.

Rollbar is a must for track use on any car, IMO. The standard for the Miata was the Hard Dog Hardcore Double-Diagonal. Not sure if there is a "new standard" as I sold my car almost 3 years ago now - but Hard Dog is a good brand to look at, and they are not too spendy brand new. For the BMW, Kirk Racing is the brand to get.

The other thing to keep in mind with the Miata is that it is slow. The early cars dyno something like 95 whp and yes, they don't weigh much, but that is still not much power.

On the plus side, there is an old saying that "if you can't go fast with 90 hp, 900 hp won't help you." One of my first weekends out, I passed a V10 E60 M5 on Summit Point Main, in a NA Miata. It's a fantastic, nimble platform and really great to learn on. Parts are pretty cheap, consumables are pretty cheap, really can't go wrong with one. You will want 15" wheels vs. the stock 14's as tires are way easier to come by.

Now onto the BMW. If you do an E36, get a 93-95 325i/is or any E36 M3. Reason being - the 328's are not classed into many racing classes compared to the other E36's. You may not go racing, but if you sell the car as a "built track car" you want to have as wide an audience of buyers as possible.

I have friends who race 325i's in Spec3 (a NASA class) and others, myself included, who compete either in NASA's Time Trials or GTS (German Touring Series). The BMWs may be slightly more expensive to run. I haven't really found that I pay an "M tax" to have the M3 versus a non-M, other than in tire costs. We run 17" wheels on the M3's and the 325i's use a 15" wheel. So, similar tire costs between a 325i and Miata.

One downside of a 325i is that it will not have a limited slip diff, whereas many Miatas did come with them standard. All M3's have one.

It's far easier to fit a wide range of racing seats in the BMWs. Miatas tend to require a super skinny seat, or cutting/banging on the transmission tunnel to get clearance (width).

I need to grab lunch at work here but feel free to PM me if you want to chat more. I'm in Alexandria and would be happy to show you my M3 and talk through some of the running costs.

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Factors include cost

The Miata will have a lower entry cost, lower cost to make track worthy, and lower cost for repairs and servicing. I've owned both and the consumables alone are much more expensive for an e36.

price / ease of mods for HPDE (Miata needs a roll bar for example, e36 may need brakes ? )

Every modification for the M3 will cost more. Both would need tires and brakes minimum, and the Miata will need a roll bar.

I hear Miatas are very easy and forgiving , how does the e36 stack up in HPDE ?

The e36 is a very forgiving platform and easy to drive. Both are excellent cars to learn on.


With all of the above said. My competition car has been my M3, and my practice/fun cars as of late have been Civics. Civics are my preferred option for inexpensive and fun track cars. They're a blast to drive, and a well set up Civic will be more loose in corners than a RWD car. Additionally, they have a lot of potential to get faster as you progress as a driver, and the cost of upgrades/parts is insanely cheap. The Miata platform is pretty limited and becomes very expensive and unreliable to make it fast, while a Civic can be fairly inexpensive and bulletproof reliable at the same lap time.

I help organize Vtec Club USA and Extremespeed Roadster Cup (all Miata) Time Attack events, so I have a lot of experience with both. A Miata or Civic is the best option when it comes to affordable track time.

[CoMZ302]

I made the mistake of leaving BMW for miata land a number of years ago. I say mistake, not because Miatas aren't good cars, but because I simply don't enjoy driving them. I'm back in a 328 now and couldn't be happier.

In the end, what do you like driving? Don't buy either until you drive both.

While M3s will be costlier to operate (17 or 18" tires, more gas, more expensive brake pads), if you can stand being in a 325 or 328, they run on 15s and the costs should be the same as a miata (other than gas).

There's three ways to pick a race car:
1) Opportunity. Someone you know sells something fantastic really cheaply because they want out.
2) Desire. I love this car, I don't care how it does.
3) Form. This car will win in this class. I don't care if I like the car or not, I want to win.

Which are you?

I'm never doing #3 again.

[JulianK8Z]

My first track car was an E36 M3. My first race car was an E36 325 built for GTS2. I then moved to a Spec Miata.

They are all GREAT cars. I would echo the above comments about the Miata being cheaper to operate. Parts are also plentiful and easy to find. They are incredibly easy to work on. Without a cage, some orgs might have issue with running a convertible in their program, even with a rollbar. Some instructors might take issue with it. Maybe not, but I've seen it. (I'd certainly want to put a cage in if it was in the cards.)

My biggest problem with the Miata wasn't so much fitment while I was in the car, but ease and speed of egress.

Damn was that car fun to drive, though!

I wound up selling the Spec Miata and moving to an E30. For me, this is the perfect middle ground between an E36 and a Miata. It's light, nimble, and fun, consumables are cheap, yet it's still decidedly a German sedan.

[NotoriousJJE]

I have tracked them all and just bought an M3. Don't just look at cost to run. Look at fun to run. I have a 2001 Prelude ITS car I will sell you for cheap. It was fun but I couldn't help but wish I was driving something else.

[matthugie]

I was faced with a similar decision last year. Miatas are tons of fun but lacking in the power department for me. They're great cars to learn on and are cheap to run, but in the end I chose the E36.

[ANGST]

I made the mistake of leaving BMW for miata land a number of years ago. I say mistake, not because Miatas aren't good cars, but because I simply don't enjoy driving them. I'm back in a 328 now and couldn't be happier.

In the end, what do you like driving? Don't buy either until you drive both.

While M3s will be costlier to operate (17 or 18" tires, more gas, more expensive brake pads), if you can stand being in a 325 or 328, they run on 15s and the costs should be the same as a miata (other than gas).

There's three ways to pick a race car:
1) Opportunity. Someone you know sells something fantastic really cheaply because they want out.
2) Desire. I love this car, I don't care how it does.
3) Form. This car will win in this class. I don't care if I like the car or not, I want to win.

Which are you?

I'm never doing #3 again.

1 and half of 2 . I don't particularly like convertibles , and the Miata is small. I do like Porsche but they are a bit out of range

[jrkoupe]

If it s just for track days...not w2w....then I must drive a car I really like..

it gets boring giving point by's all day to lesser drivers as well...

Id say e36 all day......but Ive been behind some well driven meeyatas....wow...

e30 is my no 1 choice tho......super cheap to run...

[0100]

I would think you can fit a set of track wheels/tyres and tools into an e36 easier than a miata. I use to do spec miata and it was pretty fun, but for HPDE I picked an e36. After all my research I came down to the e36 of civic. I am just starting my build, and already wi$hing I went the civic route. That said deep down I know I would be wishing I built an e36. I also use to race formula cars and that is where the real fun is at(for pretty much the same money as spec miata). If I ever go back to the truck and trailer deal, it's only going to be for a real race car.

I say e36 or civic.

[Inflame]

Imagine having to tell your friends and family you "race" a Miata... Probably never get invited to Christmas dinner again.

[crashgordan]

great reads!

[JBasham]

Hello Original Poster -- I also live in DistMarVa, and the HPDE scene around here is just unbelievably great. You can drive locally with BMW, PCA, SCCA, and NASA. The people I meet at these events are the best part. Just plain old great folks. I can easily maintain a schedule of 8 HPDE weekends, without getting more than 75 minutes from home.

BMW CCA has super-good instructors, but a firm no-convertible rule. So going to the Miata means you have no access to 3 of the local top-tier HPDE events each summer. If you're interested in VIR (also an awesome track), Tar Heel BMW CCA runs three good events a year down there and I think they prohibit convertibles too (but double check).

PCA has no problem with Miatas. PCA also runs a top tier HPDE weekend around here, and goes to great places like VIR, Watkins Glen, and Mid-Ohio to boot. Many of them are 3 days instead of 2 for the same money as a BMW 2-day. And PCA instructors have taught me much great stuff over 3 years. There's also cross-overs in the instructor community.

PCA has started retaining BMW to run a skid pad program at the PCA HPDE weekends at Summit Point Main, where I actually get a TON more skid pad time than I do at BMW CCA. (This happens because many PCA drivers just don't sign up for any skid pad slots.) But I don't know if the BMW skid pad guys are okay with Miatas or not. They will allow a Boxster, I know. You would just have to check with them.

You'll have to ask others about SCCA and NASA. I know they are fine with a Miata, but I haven't run with them so that's all I know. I have hung out at the paddock with them, and they seem like great folks.

Once you get out of the novice ranks, you can plan on going into most straights with at least one or two cars in your 6 looking for a point-by. Miata vs. other car in the corners, with equally skilled drivers, almost always allows the Miata to roll through at the same rate as the other car. But getting out of the corners, a car with 300HP just has a big advantage. And the straights are even harder. That's not a problem for some drivers; for others they get tired of it. I often drive a 120HP car and pointing folks by doesn't kill my joy. (Note: one time when I was in my second summer, driving a 400HP car, I gave a point-by to a supercharged Miata.)

E36 is a popular track car around here and you will be welcomed showing up with one at any of the clubs. If you are a DIY guy, I don't think the expense is a significant difference between the two. If you want to learn to be a DIY guy, I am confident the BMW people on Bimmerforums can talk you through just about anything. They have moved me from oil changes to motor swaps in just a few years.

[TXBDan]

THSCC allows convertibles if they have a roll bar. I know a bunch of those guys and would highly recommend their events. Their classroom instruction is excellent as well.

[matthugie]

VIR has a rule that all convertibles, regardless of factory integrated rollover protection, must have a roll bar. That's actually the reason I sold my s2k, I didn't want to hack up a great condition low mileage car to put a roll bar in it.

[Cobra1956]

My two cents would be this. Try to figure out where you are going/want to go. I started tracking in a cobra replica with 500 hp. Rush to drive but no a great track car. I have seen all sorts of cars and drivers since I started to track. My current car is an e36 that we bought and I drove it to work and my son used it as his track car. We slowly converted it to a dedicated track car including aero and engine swap. If you run smaller tracks you don't need/want big horsepower. If you are on big tracks you can run into people with big HP cars that can't drive a bit but just mash it on the straights and clog up the joint in the corners. I have friends that have Porsche turbos but track spec miatas simply because they are dirt cheap. Spec e30 is a great car also. If you are going to drive it back and forth to work try to formulate a plan on how to get what you want.Small trailer for a set of track tires. On my e36 we pulled the rear seats out and installed a set of Kirkeys up front. When driving to work I could swap out the race seat for the oem seat in less than 10 minutes. Car was never pretty and I bought it to be slowly built into a kick ass DE car.......which it now is. There is no such thing as a crappy car.

[VaTechE36]

I've got an e36 M in Richmond I'm selling if you want to go to e36 route. The car is already prepped for hpde/TT.

PM me if you're interested and I can send you more detailed information.

[ANGST]

Picked up a cheap 92 325is . Trying to sort it now , but still in the market for a more "done" track car. Whichever comes up first Miata or e36 ...

[jr02518]

This is a great thread, a reminder that "more" might be better but it will lighten your wallet and set your credit cards on fire.

In January of this year I might have driven the car that answers most of the unanswered questions in my quest, to date. I compete with a 1995 Miata built to a local level, with the SCCA in E Street SOLO2. Last year I drove in 12 of 13 events in the Cal Club Region and driving a total of 5 different cars in the class I won the jacket. Proving the NA is now hopelessly out classed, an even marginal 2001 MR2 will beat a locally prepped NB and Penske shocks are really expensive but they work.

I have taken a few ride along laps in a caged Miata at the California Speedway. Being on the wall side of the car flat out before the turn in to the infield of the Roval was a reminder why your instructor never is earning enough.

But this year, at VARA University I was driving a 1999 BMW Z3 M Coupe. The car was built as a "One Lap Of America" years ago. It's a slick top with a cage. The rear end of the car has been welded back into position, after last years event, but what answers the question is a supercharger. In its current state of tune it provided 350 hp at the wheels. Has working AC and the stereo still works. It belongs to a friend, my job was to brake it in and get it home. I can confirm that the gas tank's in these things are TINY.

So, short of buying a 2008 ZO6 and spending god knows how much on tires, my money is on an E36. Just know that "more" is going to drive you.

[cohny]

You mentioned street legal car for HPDE so here's another thing to consider.

The Miata is a great track car and like others have mentioned it's cheap to run and maintain. However the Miata is absolutely not an option for me. Why? I can't put anything in it. I don't have a tow vehicle or a trailer and when I do weekend events I have to bring a ridiculous amount of stuff with me. I bring all of my tools including my jack and stands, fluids, and gas etc. I also bring a tent, chairs, a big cooler with food for a whole weekend, a table, a camp stove, tarps, an air mattress, lanterns etc. so I don't have to spend 200+ on a motel for two nights. I am always impressed that I can fit all of that in the E36 and that it's still a relatively light and nimble track car.

Not sure if that's a factor but it's one of the best things about the E36 IMO.

[ANGST]

You mentioned street legal car for HPDE so here's another thing to consider.

The Miata is a great track car and like others have mentioned it's cheap to run and maintain. However the Miata is absolutely not an option for me. Why? I can't put anything in it. I don't have a tow vehicle or a trailer and when I do weekend events I have to bring a ridiculous amount of stuff with me. I bring all of my tools including my jack and stands, fluids, and gas etc. I also bring a tent, chairs, a big cooler with food for a whole weekend, a table, a camp stove, tarps, an air mattress, lanterns etc. so I don't have to spend 200+ on a motel for two nights. I am always impressed that I can fit all of that in the E36 and that it's still a relatively light and nimble track car.

Not sure if that's a factor but it's one of the best things about the E36 IMO.

This is absolutely a factor in consideration . I am hoping this e36 works out